Ep 90 - Healing Pain and Suffering

hi everyone welcome to the psychology and spirituality a bridge to Better Life discussion my name is Marcia trano I'm your host and with me is Dr anay fona to discuss suffering hi anay how you doing today hi Marca hello everyone such a pleasure to be here with you all again that's awesome thank you thank you for being back and I just wanted to talk to everyone because there's really many many effective ways today especially our day and age right with technology but there's so many ways to recover from say sickness and actually heal our suffering in pain the re cure however will only come when we're able to eliminate the root cause we often stop short of that because we address the symptoms not the the the real cure right and um Wanted to to do this an um let's use this episode as an invitation to discuss the elements out there and there's more than one that can help us all of us overcome suffering so an I understand that Carl gusta Yong is considered the best person person to explain the nature of suffering and to present awareness and opportunity for healing and we understand that as well that his focus of course was physical and emotional wellbe from a medical perspective right he used very interesting methods to find the cause and the solution for suffering dreams and Imagination I find it quite fascinating to to read how dreams and my imagination can help me so anay can we just start today talking a little bit about that and we move on to the the other sides of uh pain and suffering yes well that's great great talk um and especially Mara I would add um not only emotional physical because emotional and physical uh Roots let's say of suffering frud had himself um like U organized when he talked about the personal unconscious right and about the material let's say the repressed or denied material um I mean ideas drives right that the ego uh uses uh um defenses and just lives in the personal unconscious because of uh trying to avoid suffering right um but K Yung and

repressed or denied material um I mean ideas drives right that the ego uh uses uh um defenses and just lives in the personal unconscious because of uh trying to avoid suffering right um but K Yung and I think the the core of yung's uh Theory H is belief that the whole of the individual's experience should be respected and included integrated H rather than aspects being like patholog or disavowed as um you know I'm this is bad that's the idea that fright of of course he understood that the ego kind of protects itself against um drives and and and you know different impulses that um don't fit with the our image that we would like to to have of of ourselves uh but what there's something that Freud for kind of um couldn't uh fit in his theory that it's the spiritual aspects of us of human being that's where he stayed right he went all the way and then boom anything beyond that physical experience is for the Next Generation by that we mean Carl Gustav Yung and others correct yes I think so yes I think so so um Yung thought that um that the personal unconscious or the unconscious let's say uh was not only as Freud's um thought um a a place let's say in the psych where um things are like garbage or denied or oh I don't want to deal with that and then then we get neurotic and we suffer because we dissociate he said okay this happens he agreed but not only that for you uh our unconscious was also a place of wisdom can you imagine that that's beautiful isn't it the the sides of the the unconscious yes yes so wisdom and health right yes because he went deeper than FR not only in the personal unconscious as we have been talking but also he went deeper to the what we call Collective unconscious right uh so he thought you but thought but even in this um this personal unconscious with this issues that are not um that the ego tries to read um itself from right our Yun called our shadow aspects so the our aggressiveness for instance our destructive qualities so you thought that uh this

is issues that are not um that the ego tries to read um itself from right our Yun called our shadow aspects so the our aggressiveness for instance our destructive qualities so you thought that uh this all should be integrated we should um like put some light of Consciousness in this unconscious aspects and integrate because if we dissociate of course we get neurotic patterns and then we suffer because we are going to act these patterns in our daily life in our um relationships because we're are going to project onto others these kind of aspects and this will bring suffering to uh everyone else and to ourselves so we get stuck let's say if we dissociate if we try to deny these aspects that we all have right it's Human Experience to learn is to make mistakes right yes so we we shouldn't pathologize uh our mistakes and I think it that's really great because when Joanna brings her wisdom spiritual wisdom and and says that uh we all make mistakes we are evolving right and so uh she talks about suffering as um look what she say says uh she says there is pain that elevates M pain that conquers yes and pain that brings Redemption because if I listen to my what my pain is trying to call me to look at to try to call me to so that I can look into myself and learn about myself right because mistakes we all all all of us it's part of human experien then I get Redemption I Elevate myself because if we put Joanna in Yung together they are talking about not only um making our egos more mature because we can endure the suffering we can learn with the suffering but also go deeper within ourselves and understand that we Are Spiritual Beings learning this material experiences so if we learn with our mistakes and really expand our view about ourselves about others then we can overcome pain and suffering because we are going to learn yeah no I was just thinking couple of things that uh um came to my mind first of all uh if you go 1 two 3 4 right we fail we feel guilty because we recognize

nd suffering because we are going to learn yeah no I was just thinking couple of things that uh um came to my mind first of all uh if you go 1 two 3 4 right we fail we feel guilty because we recognize the failure right and from that guilt we can go to either repent or repair to redeem yourselves right so I think it's very interesting because it's there's this bifurcation where I can get stuck in in self-punishment and self filation and truly suffering uh based on the failure that I already committed P hands I committed and but I I get embroiled in that uh mistake and stay there um without being able to to move forward and uh and and I keep thinking right that uh uh when I mentioned that Yung used dreams and Imagination right his his therapeutical methods also included uh the idea that religion right religion can heal our soul which is what you said before that he like Jan and the angels they do believe that what causes the suffering are based in your spirit in your soul uh which is interesting right so it's a it's the bodies that manifestation of um something in your soul that needs release is is that a correct assumption yes yes perfect um you know um Mara uh you talked about dreams and and that was really something different because uh Yung worked a lot with the dreams of his patients of dreams of himself and some other colleagues and and he he talks about this other Consciousness let's say deep within our unconscious that he called self but it's young self as we said that Joanna calls the says it is the our spirit and we could call higher self yeah so when Jonah um says asks us to change our mental landscape right to recognize um as you were saying um our mistakes and to recognize our pains our guilt for instance if I'm feeling guilty I shouldn't like deny that I'm feeling guilty and and project onto other oh no I'm all right it's because she or he did this and that that I'm feeling this no I'm not all right I'm feeling pain I'm feeling guilty why am I feeling that and

guilty and and project onto other oh no I'm all right it's because she or he did this and that that I'm feeling this no I'm not all right I'm feeling pain I'm feeling guilty why am I feeling that and so I have to look inside myself but for instance for us to understand it just came in my to my mind because you talked about a dream a dream of a person uh a a kind of 60y old um woman that has been uh she she told me that was some time ago um this kind of dream you see changing landscape she's pretty much annoyed with getting old you understand that I do I do we all do right and not being so uh beautiful this and that so making a lot of uh know uh thinking that she has to do a lot of plastic surgery or this or buy this or that and try to be younger or uh and things like that so she tells me because she had been in an area with um that the city where she was born here in my state in Brazil was totally destroyed by the floods that we had early in this year right was it was a small City like in a valley and the river just came washing everything she was able to to save actually some of um some of her relatives and um people from her family but she couldn't she can't you know in a sense uh get she's also very worried let's say with um getting old and and it's like an imbalance should with everything that's going on in the world in my city where I was born with my family uh shouldn't I be worried let's say she this is not conscious yet in her mind but it's there the self is calling and I will tell you you and everybody else the dream so you can make um you know your own understanding but uh she she's kind of divided Mara that a part of her was there when the flood H happened and she is a very strong uh lady she was able to save a lot of people uh she was quick to realize that the river uh was the level of the river was Rising so she got her car she picked up um relatives she went up in a hill so she saved a lot of people at the same time look at that we are talking about

t the river uh was the level of the river was Rising so she got her car she picked up um relatives she went up in a hill so she saved a lot of people at the same time look at that we are talking about the higher self and the ego right yeah at the same time when she goes back some weeks later to to her daily life all the worry that well I'm getting old well this and that friend look so beautiful they have made a plastic surgery so it's kind of crazy right yes in a sense uh and of course there's some kind of uh defenses of the ego right but or or even I'm just thinking out loud here even that uh extreme need for belonging and as you know there's this entire uh body of literature talking about as you age as a woman especially in your 50 in your 60 you become invisible right you become invisible you start to to no longer have a sense of belonging of acceptance that comes with no longer being attractive as a young woman so all of it's wrapped up but it's but in in relative terms her obsessive and I'm going to call it obsessive uh with my you know quote unquote air quotes here yeah uh it's this fix stated idea on how she needs to be young and you and I can quickly see that there's that underlying need to be loved right yes yes and to be accepted but in a certain way denying the previous experiences of how strong she was that's a that's a good point to save a lot of people and uh you know and to kind of uh she was was very intuitive and we say the intuition is from the depths of the psych right is the higher self she was able to realize before a lot of people that the river was going up um and so she was a she was very quick and and she saw like U to to save people actually to go up in the hill and she she had a very strong images Mara and I wanted everybody who uh is listening to us to imagine you said you you talked about imagination yes Yung would propose active imagination is one of the his techniques to deal with um images for instance from the dreams right to talk

ning to us to imagine you said you you talked about imagination yes Yung would propose active imagination is one of the his techniques to deal with um images for instance from the dreams right to talk with our inner um images and characters let's say the our complexes so imagine that you are you know at night a lot of rain you have your members of your family that need assistance the river is going up you have to leave quickly and nobody kind of believes because the river always in this city had been going up but never uh getting inside uh and washing really people's homes right yeah but she would she had she was so strong she was so connected that she told she knew it it wouldn't happen this knowledge is intuition knowledge without reasoning let's say the our intellectual mind getting in the way and so she just said no we are leaving we are going she never questioned and she was so strong that people just followed her and so she saved a lot of people but okay some uh weeks later everything is settled you know the ego says okay let's forget okay uh we could evaluate if she had a post-traumatic disorder but she doesn't have any the symptoms okay and I and I'm smiling because I keep thinking of the dialogue between the ego and the the higher self right yeah yes yes so and we say Mara that um it's time and people a lot of people all around the world are going through a spiritual awakening that's right people's uh people's higher self right or as Janna says our spirit down deep it's not down it's actually it's everywhere but um in the depths of the psych is calling to our egos and it's very strong this calling yeah but imagine if you get stuck in everyday life with your friends she's a divorced Lady of 60 more or less the um the the son and daughter are already out of the house having their lives right so what they are friends that were not there said oh okay now we have to go abroad let's go to Europe let's have some fun let's go to bars and try to date a little bit not that this is bad but the

ght so what they are friends that were not there said oh okay now we have to go abroad let's go to Europe let's have some fun let's go to bars and try to date a little bit not that this is bad but the things that the experience she had was so strong uh the the self capital S is calling her so in a in a way you know so meaningfully that if you just think that it's a you are able to live your daily life uh then something is going to go wrong and so let's go to her dream so um our conversation can uh be more um it's made clear so what happens that she uh she dreams that she's in her car taking some relatives they are they are falling her uh following her okay in other cars and she has to crosses a river a very river that it's you know very thick uh and the water is running really uh fast but she says okay because she she see is uh that the water is clear and she sees a path okay that it's under a stone path it's all very symbolic you can make your own own connections and imp indications so it's a stone path that it's uh goes under the water but it's clear to see and she knows her car can go through you know follow this path because the water is clear so she goes and says it's okay and she realized that she is kind of suddenly she's in the middle of Crossing this river that she was not paying attention and then the the water gets uh dirty suddenly yeah and she cannot see the path anymore yeah okay and so she gets stuck in the middle of the river so I thought this dream when you I wasn't thinking about this dream but when you said dreams and we are talking about overcoming suffering yes so one of the things that I think differentiates Yung from you know fraud and other thinkers in psychological field is that he says that spiritual experiences and spiritual knowledge is something very very important in the psych you know it gives meaning and here's where Joan I think comes in when she uh when she asks us to urge us to change our mental landscape yes yes to broaden our uh world view our

important in the psych you know it gives meaning and here's where Joan I think comes in when she uh when she asks us to urge us to change our mental landscape yes yes to broaden our uh world view our understand the view of about ourselves what are we doing here okay the the ego has to uh you know to to live daily life the best way that we can but especially in this time that we are living in it's very very important that we make this connection it's not with the outside knowledge yes or the word it's the inner knowledge right and yeah the pay attention to our dreams to our intuitions and to what the times are asking are asking us to to pay attention and it's so clear when when you when you narrate this this dream right where her intuition her strength but then get muddy and not being able to to fulfill but um May I just go into a different direction yeah go ahead no because it's it's quite complex this whole topic right but um um both both of us have read wake up and be happy by Jonah d'angeles and in that book um she she mentions right that there is that purpose for pain it helps us move forward toward our own spiritual growth so there's as you mentioned before there's several layers in in reference to pain and suffering but I wanted to to say that in um the spirit's book uh Alan cardic uh um he discusses this topic the spirit world and in I I believe it's chapter 7even uh he's talking about spiritual life and uh he he's discussing this whole essay what does the the spirit feel and and and he specifically talks about pain so Yung and Joan of the Angeles they agree that it's you have to heal the spirit not the body right and then we now talk about Joanna the angels and alen card and they're cross cross referencing those two we come across now with a very interesting dilemma that I'd love to hear from you which is the body is the instrument of pain so it is a dilemma is it the sources in the spirit but the body's instrument can we kind of break this down a little bit um an naive for all of

ear from you which is the body is the instrument of pain so it is a dilemma is it the sources in the spirit but the body's instrument can we kind of break this down a little bit um an naive for all of those who are here with us today yes uh so let's think about that the body instrument because as you mentioned Alan kardak and Joanna we all know through spiritist um knowledge that we are spirits living an experience in the flesh let's say in the material world right in the body in a body let's say right and uh in this Dimension material material Dimension uh where we live in space and time but we know uh that the laws even the laws of physics are not the same in the spiritual Realms right different types of uh Evolution different types of spiritual Realms let's say and Mara I you were talking about Alan kardak yeah and I remember I love this sentence let's say if I can remember exactly that um IM Manuel shiko xaver Manor one of um brazilian's most known um uh Medan right sh xav said that matter and he said that in the beginning of the 20th century right that matter is um coagulated light something like that yeah um it's so it's light made um matter right when we are here and we know through quantum physics and things like that that for instance the electron can act as um as waves of possibilities or as matter as a particle let's say and what makes the electron uh do that is the observation so if you put everything together Emmanuel in last century in the beginning of last century was telling all of us who could connect read shiku xaver book uh something that we are dis we discover and we are still a lot of people kind of have some difficulty realizing that or even understanding uh but he was giving a beautiful image H how our spirit uh creates this reality correct we we are not going into that we are not physicist and we have a beautiful people like Emit goani and um people should read his books because he's a quantum physics right expert expert his PhD and all that

are not going into that we are not physicist and we have a beautiful people like Emit goani and um people should read his books because he's a quantum physics right expert expert his PhD and all that and a lot of other uh authors in the United States around the world uh that studied this kind of thing but through spirit's knowledge when you talk about the body of course we can I think Alan kardak and Joanna are asking us to understand that this experience the body is going to kind of be our vehicle let's say our instrument yeah to not only the instrument of the ego to live this life but also to acknowledge pain because it's the way that we can feel oh I'm feeling pain so Yung says that the symptom is the way the path to uh towards cure that we should follow our symptoms not deny them and not take a lot of medicine to end the the symptom without not that we have to feel pain if we have medicine but but our society has become addicted to painkillers broadly broadly speaking right yeah that's awful because uh sometimes we we just oh I I need to finish the you know to forget my pain so I'm going to get a medicine and pain painkiller without even thinking okay what does pain mean you know what does it telling me right what is it telling me what's telling me yeah what's telling me so this is very important because um uh we we are talking about illnesses or pains and suffering in the body as a path uh uh to understand ourselves to better understand ourselves and of course I should see a doctor right but we know that a lot of people have pains and they go see a doctor and they should you're not saying that you you shouldn't see a doctor a medical doctor and but if the medical doctor says okay we have run all the tests uh I have examed you truthfully you know and you I can't find an explanation to your bodily pain let's say to the pain in your body okay so I I would just take medicine to end the B no well but if I can't find an explanation and we have a lot of science so if there were

nation to your bodily pain let's say to the pain in your body okay so I I would just take medicine to end the B no well but if I can't find an explanation and we have a lot of science so if there were something you know an infection or something like that the exams would show but we know that a lot of people have pains in the body for instance and um my colleagues medical personnel from a lot of specialization different specialization can find so my point is Mara like psychosomatic symptoms you know because the body is the um is the you know the ve the vehicle the the the instrument of expression of our spirit not only the mind the brain the but our psych our soul yes so everything that we feel in the body uh we will it's an experience and it's beautiful it's a beautiful opportunity to learn about life about each other about ourselves so and even about our bodies because I have to respect for instance people these days after the pandemic the the people drinking alcohol for instance the alcohol consum um you know it uh just raised a a lot that's what I heard that uh that consumption of alcohol has just skyrocketed right in the recent years yeah and it's awful for your your stomach for your uh body for a lot of organs in your body right for your circulatory system so I'm I'm doing something really bad to my body and it's not fun you know because I will get a disease of course it's just a matter of time because it's intoxication the body and the the brain interpret it after a certain amount of alcohol it's a poison right it's a poison yes and so it's like inflammatory um process all over your body in your brain in your different organs so you know I have to pay attention to what I'm doing to my body and why I'm doing that if I don't do this learning and it's going to be painful because if I don't correct my mistake that we are we were talking about that I will have illnesses I will have something my liver in my stomach and whatever and I will suffer and then I'll say oh I feel so so God doesn't

orrect my mistake that we are we were talking about that I will have illnesses I will have something my liver in my stomach and whatever and I will suffer and then I'll say oh I feel so so God doesn't love me or I got an illness or you know yeah yeah really don't don't quote don't quote Marcia I I I told I I several times how I've been sick for the past several months like oh can I feel well again let's forget that conversation please but I want I want to bring another wrinkle for us because this is quite interesting right the the various facets of not just feeling pain but uh overcoming that that pain and suffering but if you think about it right we're we're now talking about that spiritual Dimension and a physical Dimension from a spiritual perspective suffering is the consequence of how that Spirit has lived say in his or her corporeal existence right while we're incarnated and we we we we live like you said uh over consumption of alcohol Etc so um my from a spiritual perspective my spirit suffers from the consequence of how I lived which means even when I'm no longer in a in this body right when I'm no longer in this body I Let's Pretend now we're talking about arthritis right I no longer have arthritis because I don't have a body but as a spirit I will no longer suffer from that physical pain but I will suffer from everything I have done and how much I have caused uh in terms of pain to others to myself anything all of that still being experienced in the spirit so we can conclude that pain is the result of the bonds right and I the bonds that exist between spirit and matter which also goes right what you're saying in terms of we are all responsible for the choices that we make because we have a free will so the question here perhaps if we know all of this if we know that the pain resides in the spirit but there's this linkage this strong bond between my body and my spirit um does it mean and I that I have to be aware of all my I don't know Tendencies or predispositions or even feelings that

spirit but there's this linkage this strong bond between my body and my spirit um does it mean and I that I have to be aware of all my I don't know Tendencies or predispositions or even feelings that can be nothing related to drinking too much perhaps but actually how much I hate how how aggressive I am how envious how jealous all of those things that uh are perhaps a byproduct of the ego constructs for this life how how can we handle all of this is this too complex for us or or can we kind of break it down to to the idea that we have an opportunity indeed all of us to heal our wounds to heal our uh anything that's causing a Spain in suffering it's a great Point Mara and you know that that I love movies and when I was listening to you look what came to my mind that wonderful movie I think it's from the 90s uh you you can help me the six s with Will yes late 90s late 90s late 90s right yeah and and I I thought that it's an image when I was listening to you let's not forget the subtle body what in um spirit knowledge we call the pur Spirit right that connects the spirit with the body the material body and that has memory because all of of our experiences that we live as you said of course will be in our spiritual memory let's say because I'm learning and I'm evolving but also Mara when you said okay but okay if I have a Artis and then when I uh when I kind of die and leave my body I don't I won't have that pain anymore and but I will remember everything that I did because arthritis many times as um as other disease we were talking about psychomatic so many times autoimmune uh immune disease have to do uh with um diseases have to do do with psychological um things that are you know unconscious and things like that not only but they play a very good part of the cause of uh you know autoimmune diseases so yes uh we will have the memory of our mistakes uh emotionally that we have to deal with that Jan is saying and Alan kardak that we have to learn to evolve with the experience but

utoimmune diseases so yes uh we will have the memory of our mistakes uh emotionally that we have to deal with that Jan is saying and Alan kardak that we have to learn to evolve with the experience but I was thinking and uh it came to me like that the six tense I don't want to give people spoilers that's okay it's an old movie go ahead but it's an old movie but if you people uh remember uh writes to the I love that boy I can't remember the name of the author I see that people when he's in the hospital and all and became iconic right it became iconic that that that image right the image the the words and how it brought to a lot of us awareness of that spiritual Dimension and the communication between those who have gone and those who are here yeah yeah it was a very inspired movie you know about that and also of the process of Awakening yeah to the to the spir our spiritual uh reality let's say that we are Immortal Spirits because Bruce Willis as we know spoiler alert he his his character right his character his character yeah his character that we all loved was a um child psychotherapist right yeah um and okay so he was like a sign to this little boy in his mind of course right to treat the boy uh who was being bullied in the school and all because he was weird right and so when the boy finally believes or understands the psychotherapist Bruce his character yes yeah and I I remember I remember his name remember what was the name Malcolm Crow and he oh yes Mal yeah and he was a child psychologist yeah child psychologist exactly so when the when the boy uh trusts him to say I see that people yeah and it's ionic because he the boy was trying to say something to the psychotherapist yes and we know spoiler alert that it was also he was the only one who was seeing the psychotherapist so the psychotherapist Al of course was a ghost Also let's say but if you remember remember Mar and everybody else by the end of the movie when he realizes when he has the spiritual Insight let's

pist so the psychotherapist Al of course was a ghost Also let's say but if you remember remember Mar and everybody else by the end of the movie when he realizes when he has the spiritual Insight let's say that he he himself was a spirit he looks to his body and he feels the blood and he sees the blood because he been shot remember that's right he he reles that moment of trauma if you will right yeah and he was not in the body anymore it was let's say so where was that information and how could he see the blood and the wound it was because the ego was there even if he was a ghost let's say but he was a ghost as we say as he was in his Spirit form but very close uh to this Dimension so in his mind he was leaving the personality that he was leaving he couldn't get all the whole whole of his situation and the whole of his spiritual possibilities then of course he had Liv men lives and all this but uh he was it was very close his experience so he would look to himself and feel the blood and see the blood living the wound so I think this is very it's a very nice way for us to understand that it's our Consciousness that materialized uh and you know uh things here in this material world and um when we go on in evolution we do what Joanna is asking we kind of change our mental landscape because we get near to our spiritual knowledge our higher self and of course our world view is going to be totally different yeah so I do hope that we can all evolve in this sense and very quickly because things are going is are changing and all this spiritual knowledge Marsha and everybody is you know it's for us it's here it's not we it's all for us so we just have to connect to uh our higher selves go ahead no no it's very interesting when you say that because um again based on joah the Angeles and she she brings that idea right when I talked about Redemption uh and and reparation to be the way to uh address the source of pain in your spirit right but uh one of the things that I I find quite interesting as well

hat idea right when I talked about Redemption uh and and reparation to be the way to uh address the source of pain in your spirit right but uh one of the things that I I find quite interesting as well is whenever we talk about okay let's let's address the the source of pain uh we all must understand that our pain is very personal our pain pain is not transferable no one can go through the pain on our behalf and this is so important because you know an we are women right so we can be mothers or spouses or Partners or children or a friend and when we're close to those who are our loved ones who are suffering all that we want to do is like can I live the pain I I I'm strong can give me some and you can't and um all we can do and I I I say this to all of us that all we can do if um your loved one is suffering is to make them aware that uh we know right we know their Affliction we know their pain we know the depths of their suffering and that we're there for them but we must between all of us here listen to this we must understand that some experiences must be lived through to truly understand and move on I think this is what we're talking about in regards to uh the six sense and how all of that trauma that not not trauma the the drama of U of um Bruce whis's character Malcolm uh to go through all of this is for him to be aware to be um to understand what he went through so that he could heal and move on yes it's beautifully said and I wanted to we know we coming to the end and I wanted to site Joanna she says something look at that Mara and everybody the trials inherent uh to your process of reparation have being rendered more bearable because of your love and it is that very love that has also earned you exceptional help that few people get yeah I think this is so loyal U she says loyal and devoted friends surround you with affection yes you are the object of unusual kindness and gifts enjoy blessings that would make other people people very happy soan is telling us that we can exactly what

oted friends surround you with affection yes you are the object of unusual kindness and gifts enjoy blessings that would make other people people very happy soan is telling us that we can exactly what you said people cannot leave our own pain and sometimes we uh empathize uh but uh you know we have compassion but we cannot really feel other people's pain but we can love we can have compassion we can say that we are I'm here with you yeah and I can of course uh understand that I'm not going to be able to heal other people's pain because only ourselves can hear ourselves only us can hear ourselves right but um we can help each other loving each other and especially we can help ourselves as is is telling us to do yeah uh loving ourselves accepting our mistakes accepting in a sense uh what our pains our bodies as you so beautifully remember Alan kard wants to teach us what's the path it's showing so that we can do um the the going back to that dream see always the water clear yes right so that can follow the stone path and cross the river that it's very symbolic to cross a river to go to the other side um it's not not necessarily needs to be death but uh very to move on let's say to move to another um to another Consciousness right and to move in our lives to other Landscapes as Joanna said so we need to cross many times Rivers it's a passage right let's say right yeah in our lives uh but uh during our Li life span and our py cycle life cycle but uh we need to do with clear water clear waters in the unconscious and to do that we have to be brave and to face our our fears our suffering or fear of suffering right feeling pain and of course through love we can achieve a lot yeah that's awesome I want to say that um there is Spain this is Joanna d'angel tells us this there is Spain that elevates pain that conquers and pain that brings Redemption so let's conquer let's be elevated and let's uh reach out go through what we're going through so that we can go into that road the path

that elevates pain that conquers and pain that brings Redemption so let's conquer let's be elevated and let's uh reach out go through what we're going through so that we can go into that road the path to Redemption right the path with the clear water and it it's just that which will leave us lead us to cross the river to get to the love that you mentioned I want to close our time here today it's such a good conversation we could go on and on we we unfortunately have to say goodbye but I want to say to you if this is the first time time that you listen to our program um note that the psychology and spirituality weekly talks are based on the works by Joanna d'angeles and we're here to offer this I would say cool but it's really a safe space so that we can talk about it so that we can confront compare correlate but most importantly expand our spirituality Concepts from a psychological lens and bringing perhaps some insight some tips or some advice so that you and I can lead a better life before we say goodbye I want to recognize and uh say thank you to the organizations that are sponsoring this program TV man Cino the United States spirs Federation the international spirs Council and Amy Brazil and if you haven't done so please hit subscribe love to also hear from you so write down um in the chat window if you haven't done uh today do it next time we're back so that we can hear your questions your thoughts your inputs but with that I going to say a na thank you so much for your time with us today it's been such a pleasure to talk about this the subject that is odd right many people just say no I don't want to talk about pain I want to talk about joy and I want to talk about uh the pleasures in life well we talked about pain and I hope this was a very uh insightful conversation for you as it was for me with that soong an soong Mara soong everybody see you soon byebye