Ep 8 - Psychology and Spirituality | The Conscious Being - Pt 2

foreign welcome to the psychology and spirituality a bridge to a better life discussion I am your host Marcia trojano with me are Dr anahi Fonseca Jose and Ann Sinclair thank you so much for joining us back we are going to continue our episode today which is on facing Consciousness part two I'm really happy to be here and I just want to let you know this program is sponsored by Umi Brazil United States Spirits Federation and I want to just take a moment to say thank you thank you divaldo Franco thank you for all the foundational work that you've done with the works of Joanna DeAngelis and of course we are here also sponsored by the international spiritist consult with many many contributions from various uh volunteers and workers from other spiritus organizations and with that I would like to say if you haven't done so hit subscribe all right if you want to to get to check out our channels information about this program go to www.spiritus.us but welcome back it is so good to have you back we've been waiting for this time to be together when we talk a little bit about the Hero Journey so now you do you want to do you want to brings us back in into those Notions that you first introduced perhaps quickly uh in the other episode and how we go on talking about this topic and uh other related topics thank you so much so hello everybody again and we were talking last episode about a central myth that contains uh so a myth like a sacred story that peoples from different times and places share and that contains values that are precious to the development of Consciousness to those peoples so we were talking also that Joanna Jones uses a lot of Young's Concepts because young Jung talks about the collective unconscious that it's our human Heritage all of our experiences ways of reacting that uh accompany accompany us during our development of Consciousness and as Spirits evolving actually throughout different and many lives and I would like to point out that also that Jung says that myths are one of the

company us during our development of Consciousness and as Spirits evolving actually throughout different and many lives and I would like to point out that also that Jung says that myths are one of the ways that um the archetype so this ancient forms manifest in this world because we have to realize when Jung's talking about the psych the soul he says that the SAG is um actually between two different dimensions the material the biological part of life and the spiritual part of life so imagine the conflict that we are The Duality we were also talking about the Opposites that we have to live uh that actually uh are part of our uh psychology this uh Perpetual management search to balance the Opposites within ourselves but to make it clear I know that Martha wants to bring a very well known story but I was I will first talk about a little bit about Joseph Campbell in his wonderful book that I think everybody knows the hero with the Thousand Faces that he writes in 1948. and in this book Campbell Campbell says that the mythical images are reflections of the spiritual potential of each one of us isn't this great the mythical images are reflections of the spiritual potential potential of each one of us that's why we say the myths that contain a lot of mythical images are um our sacred stories and he says that by contemplating them we invoke their powers in our lives to work through us according to Come Thou myths tell us how to face in and endure and interpret actually suffering but they do not say that in life there cannot or should not be suffering and we were talking about the hero myth I think last episode we were talking so you wanted Martha to bring an example yeah we're talking yes yes thank you so we were talking perhaps about uh the fact that uh myth is dead no it's not right um we heard last time that maybe our relationship with the sacred is dead no it's not we we simply put we we have different uh sources of myth so thank you thank God for bringing that to us

not right um we heard last time that maybe our relationship with the sacred is dead no it's not we we simply put we we have different uh sources of myth so thank you thank God for bringing that to us but uh we we mentioned in in Campbell of course with this amazing book that he brought to us the hero with a thousand faces right in in it's very that that the little uh date of 1948 is so important right and it is uh the importance for us to understand when uh uh this is written after not not long after the World War II so there's lots going on in in in the planet and in the history of mankind in the 20th century so the question here is uh as we mentioned myth is not dead because we we see them surfacing with different areas of that sacred stories one of them that all of us know is Star Wars right the Star Wars of course is a long Saga but the the original Three uh the trilogy was actually um had uh one that was uh very different and very special and has become part of all of our uh Consciousness in my opinion because uh not only it is a good story in in terms of the hero Luke right but the fact that Joseph Campbell was the consultant to George Lucas and um he brought those Concepts that we think um and I'm gonna look at and hear and it talks about how we have we lost all of this have we lost that notion of the Sacred and no we haven't it's here and the good the good news is that uh we we actually have a need and a desire uh to to talk about those stories in those terms so right back at you and I yes I love the Star Wars and exactly we were talking the previous episode that the the hero myth is analogous to the development of consciousness and the discernment of Good and Evil within ourselves because okay I'm not going to give a I don't know how many years spoiler everybody knows this story but to bring his father back to the light he has to face Darkness and we were talking about the opposite and he suffers a lot remember that I just told people that Campbell says that the myths tells

y but to bring his father back to the light he has to face Darkness and we were talking about the opposite and he suffers a lot remember that I just told people that Campbell says that the myths tells us how to face endure and interpret suffering and we were talking about in the previous episode that everything has a purpose no suffering is for nothing you know everything has a purpose so um search searching for this purpose discovering within giving meaning and purpose to our suffering is the path to illuminate The Shadow to say okay here are precious values for my Consciousness to develop for it's a learning experience and the spirit is knowledge brings this very much to us right I know josada knows a lot about that and probably she will be wanting to tell us something about that because when it says that um we suffer sometimes but it's because there is a cause and there is a reason for that and also most most of our this learning that the suffering brings us is taking us to a new step we were talking and was talking the previous episode that we developed step by step right I don't know if josada wants to comment before I go ahead no just just something very quickly um because since we are talking about the you know spiritual values and um here is we are talking about psychology and spirituality when we are talking about suffering the understand that we have is that we are not here um going after an apology for suffering right I mean it just is a natural part of life uh I mean having to be in a diet because of a certain diet restriction for a health situ health problem that I may have may may represent suffering to me just because I cannot eat certain kinds of food or because I wanted to go to part every night and then you know I have to work the following morning and then this represents suffering to to some people as well so uh we we have to to think about um the lessons I I normally do not even like to use the word suffering I like very much of the word um challenges that you know we are

ring to to some people as well so uh we we have to to think about um the lessons I I normally do not even like to use the word suffering I like very much of the word um challenges that you know we are constantly challenged and and this takes us from our comfortable Zone and uh and and and sometimes this will come in a way that can be a cause of suffering to us not pain because pain we would say is more related to the physical uh situations but but the suffering so uh it's um the other day I was talking about um actually with Marcia we were talking about the the meiotics of Socrates and how he said that um he uses this expression exactly because of because his mother was a midwife and this process that we use uh as uh and and that was the name of his his mother as a profession professioning in Greek and he used that because he said this is the you know the the birth of of the ideas and and they come in a way that represents really all everything that is related to paraffin and here is a specialist in this area you can talk much better about it than I can you know making this correlation with the birth of the conscious the human being with the actual birth right Anna yeah it makes me think because there is something especially when when a woman is going to give birth for this first time we almost say the woman that was dies at the moment of birth and the mother is born because that transformation is such so it's it's this birth and death and rebirth almost like I thinking is uh in a way is almost like the talking about myths the myths of the Phoenix you know to be from the destruction is but so the destruction doesn't need to mean a complete destruction but it's at that complete transformation and perhaps we can see a parallel with ourselves as Spirits evolving the old me dies so that the new me can be born and that has the suffering might be like more like a philosophical thing but that transformation it is impacting us on several levels and maybe sometimes words uh don't describe things

me can be born and that has the suffering might be like more like a philosophical thing but that transformation it is impacting us on several levels and maybe sometimes words uh don't describe things um adequately and we might say suffering but let's say in the same way that some people might say that childbirth was suffering for them for other people it was Joy it just depends on your emotional mental state spiritual stage when you go through that process of transformation if you understand what it's meaning and you are envisaging where what's going to happen on the other side I think there was a lovely idea you brought just Sarah I I I stop now because I always get carried away with this topic but I think it's I always like to make parallels like I say with a natural world because that that makes sense to me so everybody has their learning methods and systems but for me it's always trying to connect with things that happen naturally in nature awesome thank you yes talking about joy and suffering and this in the same uh situation for his giving birth to you know to a child uh so I think it's very important because we are saying we were talking about the Paradox how uh we leave things in a very dual way right and the meaning that we give to us a given situation depends on the way that we are experiencing this situation so to for instance the death and rebirth is an archetype or a theme that it's always present in all of us so for instance if if it if this um this situation is going to give me joy or give me bring me joy or suffering it depends on many things like the physical part I just had a sand right but or maybe in some memories bad memories of a bird that I have um you know watched this or whatever or some memories that an individual may have but the purpose we were talking about this connection of of our inner self in last episode and that how myths bring us back bring us back to these themes and images that a company us are always like reminding us of the True Values

g about this connection of of our inner self in last episode and that how myths bring us back bring us back to these themes and images that a company us are always like reminding us of the True Values right so it sometimes doesn't matter if uh actually in the end if the given experience this given experience gave me joy or or suffer or I have suffered with it but if it gave me purpose and it was a way for me to connect for instance oh um this person may have may had a a very painful delivery for instance or a very joyful delivery but the thing is that she's delivering a soul to this world she's bringing a little bit more light to this world right so this is the purpose so the hero needs to bring back to we are talking about death and rebirth and rebirth so I was thinking about uh Luke Luke Skywalker right uh story and in a certain way he was responsible to symbolically killing his father okay why is symbolic well the guy that died it's not spoiler okay everybody knows but the guy died but actually he was it was just a transformation because the father uh it's the father's rebirth to the light so death and rebirth are actually opposites that are have the same common uh meaning of this continuous experience that we go through when we are evolving our Consciousness so I think it's beautiful that uh what he had to do actually what he suffered is saying no to his inner anger the discernment that we were talking about and to the rage right because if he if he had said yes he wouldn't be able to help his father to illuminate the father's Shadow and to integrate to kill in a sense of transform all that anger that looks further ahead that took him to the dark side and have this rebirth to the light so I think it's beautiful the way that sometimes we think we are lost we are disconnect because we are so materialist we are so empty but if we just pay attention to ourselves to our inner thoughts and feelings with this purpose of Illuminating what is still Shadow inside of us then we will have this

e so materialist we are so empty but if we just pay attention to ourselves to our inner thoughts and feelings with this purpose of Illuminating what is still Shadow inside of us then we will have this rebirth to the light as Luke's father for instance so I don't know if you want to comment on that or should I just go ahead I think we can go ahead right um because I think there's a lot of discussions here and I really I really appreciate everybody's contribution to to the thought of that about uh Luke Skywalker about Star Wars and to hear a journey and and how important those concepts are for us to even understand our own suffering right our own does it mean that I am dying and is with this death is it rebirth love love that we we got to to talk a little bit about that Duality those opposites and the meaning behind them thank you so go ahead and if you don't mind we're gonna keep on going okay let's keep on going so for Joanna and just remind people that we are in one of beautiful Joanna's books the integral uh human being okay so for Joanna in the current state of society there is a lack of a predominant myth which unites all Minds pouring its blessings on them and comforting them the loss of the myth exposes the psychic contents which altered the objectives of their needs making them plunge into emptiness or disinterest into pleasure or into the hallucination of power considering that none of these goals fulfills the individual he starts to dispute the comprehensive need for the Awakening of conscience interpreting the minor myths lying the rain Joanna recalls that Jung establishes established that existence is only real when it is conscious for someone and that man's task is to become aware this is Young talking of the contents that press upwards coming from the unconscious we were talking about Duality so you know understand that myths like dreams like fairy tales they are ways to bring the Deep unconscious the archetypes to Consciousness okay so in this Dynamic movement upward right

g about Duality so you know understand that myths like dreams like fairy tales they are ways to bring the Deep unconscious the archetypes to Consciousness okay so in this Dynamic movement upward right coming from the sorry in this Dynamic movement uh comments Joanna the emergent contents form consciousness as well as its current contributions will be incorporated into the unconscious we go up and we go down with the unconscious goal up and the conscious some contents go down to the unconscious let me let me drop here just uh because uh sorry for that but uh can you maybe for those who may not have uh really delved into um the idea of conscious and unconscious and the Deep unconscious can you quickly uh tell us how can we see that in our Mind's Eye I know that to me the the image of an iceberg is one that is easy to understand maybe you can just talk a little bit about that and then move on to that that the thoughts that you're bringing here to everyone okay actually it's very simple because when we talk about uh Consciousness okay um we are talking about everything that the ego the ego is the center of Consciousness okay uh so we are talking everything that the ego is relating to and everything that the ego is not relating okay at the moment or in the past is in the unconscious I think this is kind of simple so we don't um you know make people wonder what's that about and just we talked about in the last episode but just to remind people that we have the personal unconscious that it's um contents that are uh in some ways uh have been or are near to con to the uh to the ego to the consciousness and for some reason the ego denies or is uncomfortable with this contents and then we press or denies defends itself and then it drops to the unconscious and deep within that's the difference one of the difference between Freud and young because fried goes until the personal unconscious annual goes deeper in what we call the collective unconscious our spiritual and psychic Heritage that we share all of

fference between Freud and young because fried goes until the personal unconscious annual goes deeper in what we call the collective unconscious our spiritual and psychic Heritage that we share all of all of us all of humanity I don't know do you think I answer the question it's clear yes okay so that people should understand that um the psyche our minds it's a very Dynamic thing it's not you know when we are talking here we're just trying to uh pay attention to ourselves which is something really difficult because we are analyzing we are trying to understand ourselves with our own psychic so the don't get anxious a little by little it's something that all of us have some difficulty but what is important is to understand this Dynamic of the contents of the our experiences our thoughts and feelings that they can be in Consciousness if the ego is okay with it and when the ego feels uncomfortable or threatened in some way it will drop to the unconscious and it's Dynamic and many contents of the unconscious will press to upwards to um you know to be Consciousness to be cautious or to get to the Consciousness which which may may uh if if I may sorry to interrupt you again and I but this idea that it goes up and down on a personal uh uh unconscious right we may also bring the idea that as Society changes as as new waves of new themes are brought forth that repression may not be the same about the same thing correct yes and just uh just to add Martin that it's not the personal unconscious that sometimes wants to you know to make the ego aware of some concept but also the Deep unconscious we are not going to be talking um about this about the concept of the Jung's concept of the self our higher Consciousness if we can say but there is this higher Consciousness within all of us that is deep very deep in our Psych in what we call the the collective unconscious or the transpersonal dimension of the site that is also bringing very much needed information to the ego but this is another struggle

y deep in our Psych in what we call the the collective unconscious or the transpersonal dimension of the site that is also bringing very much needed information to the ego but this is another struggle actually it's the same we're talking about this the hero myth the myth always have a friend A very wise friend now I'm going to make a question what what's Luke Skywalker um um a knowledgeable friend Yoda right yes and also he has a master right yes yes that I can't remember the name of the guy yeah so yes we could uh Yoda Obi-Wan Kenobi actually in the beginning Obi-Wan Kenobi uh we could call a symbolism of this higher self of a very wise knowledgeable man that is helping the hero the poor ego you know struggle to get more Consciousness so about this Duality Joanna says that the birth of Consciousness takes place then through the conjunction she says of opposites we were talking about the Opposites we need to try to make them closer these opposites to integrate we say from there according to Joanna arise the discernments between opposite things for instance the me and the not me the ego and the unconscious the subject and the object the person and the other see how important it is this dynamic right so without this duality of opposites which leads to reflection Jonah says in the process of the psych's evolution there is no real increase in consciousness which only operates by coming into contact with opposites and absorbing them in the central mids of All Peoples the Opposites form the essence of their beliefs of their psychic contents that generate Consciousness so so that doesn't get so complicated let's let's think about Star Wars so who was the opposite of Obi-Wan Kenobi oh we're gonna we're gonna have to go back to watch the movie dark Emperor I can't remember the name of the intern yeah yes people who are going to be at home that's the name of the guy mad at us but it's the um you see the opposite so we have the friend yes that reminds uh who actually teaches

name of the intern yeah yes people who are going to be at home that's the name of the guy mad at us but it's the um you see the opposite so we have the friend yes that reminds uh who actually teaches Luke and shows the path of self-discovery of the inner strength to face all uh you know the difficult um his difficult Quest towards safe father bringing light and finishing the Empire or all this stuff but he has to face the dark side represented in that emperor Palpatine the dark videos so see how important it is and papa Jin was a it's a very important character because he's the one provoking Luke to you know feel anger and come to the dark side right so um in this stage let's say of the development of Consciousness we need this conflict because there we say that there is no discernment of what is light if we don't experience a shadow and when we experience Shadow then uh we want the light so that's the Beautiful thing of this step by step of evolution uh can I go ahead or some other questions yes I remember a phrase by Martin Luther King Jr that he said only when it's dark we can see the stars yes that's beautiful yes I love this it's beautiful exactly so combo says that one thing that appears in myths myths is that from the bottom that's it the status is synchronicity the bottom of the Abyss comes the voice of salvation the dark moment is the moment when the real message of transformation will arrive in the darkest moment comes life that's what jasada was talking about so mythologists function then is to connect you to your bliss and find out where it really is for Come Thou the be the Transcendent is unknowable and unknown The Mystery of Life is beyond any human conception we always think in terms of opposites mythology suggests that behind this Duality there is a singularity over which it plays like a shadow game beautiful and deep and too much so I take this moment here everyone to say first thing it said is that with the words from Joseph Campbell right he brings the idea

er which it plays like a shadow game beautiful and deep and too much so I take this moment here everyone to say first thing it said is that with the words from Joseph Campbell right he brings the idea of hitting bottom right the idea of the the darkness and the light hitting bottom at the as the beginning of a new cycle the Salvation so if you will uh what does it mean to us now and we I know we talked previously uh and about uh the mother right when you give birth you kill the woman and you also give birth to the mother in in that uh that the cycle but what does it mean to us when perhaps we see ourselves and I at the end of our proverbial world but the end of all of what we have and don't have much else left while still enduring some pain physical or or not what do you say to the people that is anyone who's listening uh to this this talk today what can we say to all of us I I can't do it anymore and you're telling me that no no no no just keep going because there's a light can you give us a little bit of consolation or or break down what does it really mean in our day-to-day lives okay I think at this point I should give you a personal example because um when we talk about um suffering and this meaning bringing meaning to suffering and if we talk very academically uh then sometimes we get you know okay she's talking about but what does she know about that so many many years ago this is many many years ago um one of my child had a heart problem it was born with a heart problem and we actually went to the United States for the the heart surgery okay and things went badly and that surgery he he was seven years old more or less seven eight years old and um at that at that moment when you are and I'm talking about about this because also you talked about mothers and death and rebirth so um at that point I had been studying the you know spirituals and I was with a small book in the Intensive Care Unit and I was alone with my child and it was very proud it's a very probable that he

so um at that point I had been studying the you know spirituals and I was with a small book in the Intensive Care Unit and I was alone with my child and it was very proud it's a very probable that he would not make to the day you know and there's nothing worse I think to a mother and we also say that because you give birth you you give light to the new soul that is coming through you through your soul not only your body but also your soul um that a connection spiritual connection uh it's it's so strong and we have this small experience it's big small experience of what unconditional love should be it's one of the experiences of I think one of the most potent experience of unconditional love so the thing is that the ego is suffering I'm going to lose my child uh for uh for a sec uh for the we the psychiatrist we know in the psychologist that the loss of a child is the highest uh psychological um stress that a person can endure okay it's worse than even you having an illness for instance this is science it's already it's with from research so the thing is that I was really facing this death and what happened is that the ego say okay this is the worst pain and this is the worst pain that my child is having so what am I going to do is um we always say I would uh have this pain and if my my child you know could be free of it but you can't and you have to be there with you know your child so at this point the ego has to surrender because if the ego and I didn't know at that point anything about young I haven't I at that point I had read a lot of stuff and along cardiac but I hadn't read Joanna yet and I was with uh with a book a small book of a spirit spiritist book in my hand and I was praying as many people do in this kind of situation but while the ego was struggling I was feeling pain I was suffering and registering all of the experience you know the smells the and you know all the stuff and the pain in my child's face and all this stuff but when the ego said okay there's

ling pain I was suffering and registering all of the experience you know the smells the and you know all the stuff and the pain in my child's face and all this stuff but when the ego said okay there's nothing else I can do and I have to surrender to this situation then I started praying with another conscience that I couldn't give a name because I didn't know anything about Jung I was very frightened at that point and I hadn't read you on a but then I just opened the book I didn't know anything about synchronicity that we are going to be talking a lot in other episodes I just opened the book and the message was exactly what I needed to to read but not with the ego this is synchronicity when the self you know sends a message through the Deep unconscious okay to the ego but it's because the ego lower its Consciousness in a way let's say it surrenders okay there's nothing else I can do then the self can bring a knowledge and that knowledge was so important people so what I really can tell everybody because my because it was an experience that I myself have have gone through that sometimes we just have to surrender not to others to ourselves to our inner inner knowledge because that's the way the self and the Transcendent talks to us if the ego is very active and wanting things and angry with things and rebelling against the situation then we have a lot of difficulty to do this inner um to listen to the this inner voices you know and really opening a book praying then we are going to see a transformation because then this inner voices deep within can connect maybe to a deeper uh Dimension and bring to the ego the peace and the love that the ego needs to endure the situation and everything was okay in the end so I think maybe I I answered your questions yeah and I just want to say thank you thank you for sharing for opening up and with this really heartfelt um account that you went through it really tells us a lot about the notion of hitting all the way down and and seeing the light and seen the light

sharing for opening up and with this really heartfelt um account that you went through it really tells us a lot about the notion of hitting all the way down and and seeing the light and seen the light through surrendering is just amazing um I wanted to ask you if this is a good time for us to wrap up because we're closing to the end or do you want to to add additional inputs I was going to to ask you um something else but I think this is a good closing time what'd you think I think it's a good closing I just wanted to close with one of Joanna's um thoughts yes uh so Joanna thinks that human beings must acquire knowledge to rise above the blue brute being she calls becoming the holder of consciousness it will not be enough for them to know but they all all of us human beings they also need to live the experience of being the known object according to Joanna now I quote a healthy life results from conscious freedom capable of facing the obstacles and difficulties that arise in human relationships and in individuality itself this is the goal that Consciousness seek I think this is a beautiful sentence to end the whole program yes and I would say thank you thank you everyone for being here thank you naive for for explaining such difficult uh Concepts to us for you and for you josada for bringing additional comments in in color and uh I want to say I will see you again in the next time we meet thank you so very much thank you everyone for being here with us today thank you