Ep 35 - Fraternal Love | Psychology and Spirituality

hello everyone welcome to psychology and spirituality a bridge to a better life discussion I'm your host Marcia trano and with me are Dr anay fona J corn goat and an Sinclair they join me in a very special episode we're here in AI Italy to celebrate the power of fraternal love if this is the first time you're watching this podcast like program please note that our program the psychology and spirit spiritual weekly talks are based on the works by Joanna deangeles and offer the safe space to confront compare correlate and expand spirituality Concepts from a psychological lens bringing insights actionable tips and real world advice to help you and I lead a better life today's program is sponsored by an Brazil TV mon the international spiritist Council and the United States spiritist Federation make sure you hit sub subscribe if you haven't done so and if you'd like to to check out other information about this program and other um addition information about spiritism please check us out at spiritist us if you have any comments questions feedback to today's episode please write them down and we will uh respond to those at a later episode during today's discussion we will be focusing on fraternal love we will talk about numinous experiences chaos theory and the overall symbolism found in the archetypal level of our being yes let me just break down a little bit because it is uh based on L Corbett's book psyche and the sacred spirituality Beyond religion that we we find the same he lion Corbett says the archetype level of our being is a dimension of our spiritual source and so it it is outside of time and space in the ordinary sense of the words it is therefore not a part of the developmental model of human growth yet paradoxically participates within it a lot to to to to talk about to think about but let's hear from Dr Na fona and Sinclair and Jus corn gold how Chaos Theory butterfly fact and other symbolisms can enhance our understanding and our notion of what fraternal love is

to think about but let's hear from Dr Na fona and Sinclair and Jus corn gold how Chaos Theory butterfly fact and other symbolisms can enhance our understanding and our notion of what fraternal love is thank you so hello everyone it's a pleasure to be here and actually more than a pleasure it's overwhelming I would say because uh we are in a ciss among friends and feeling all this loving atmosphere that surrounds us and actually we can we cannot discern if it's within or outside US of ourselves so I would like to start asking U both of uh my friends J and an about how do they they feel in this psychosphere this uh all this vibration in the air what this vibration do to them as you all know we have been together for some time you know in this project in this podcast about uh psychology and spirituality based on the work San Angeles and um and uh we H had the opportunity of organizing um a personal meeting since we are talking that an lives in the UK Mar and myself we live in the US and an the Dr an lives in the in Brazil so that we could meet here as a way of connecting even more with the purpose of our work and of course uh connect with Francis ofi and uh Claire that we know as well as being Joanna deangeles uh we we thought about doing this special edition although we will not be able to show you the landscape but um we hope to bring to all of you the the emotion that we all are feeling not only to be here among friends among uh you know um people that uh like yourselves want to to better yourselves and to to Really connect with the the the way of living of Francesco Frances of and K and Joan and and and so we hope you enjoy it and and through everything that we are going to be presenting today and talking today you can also feel all this energy that we are receiving here in aisi Italy and I I would just like to to share as well my joy at the opportunity of being here together with all of you but I I would just like to give you my own experience when I arrived at couple

n aisi Italy and I I would just like to to share as well my joy at the opportunity of being here together with all of you but I I would just like to give you my own experience when I arrived at couple of days ago I came on the train and I don't know if any of you have been here toi but the train station is down at the bottom of the hill and the town the old town is way up the top of the hill so either you take a taxi or you take a bus or you're very young and you can hike it up so I decided to take the bus and I was just thinking about my suitcase and the change for the bus and all these kind of things and we went along for about a block the bus was going and suddenly it hit hit me this this changing the energy and I I almost burst into tears and I said oh my gosh something's different here and so it was a visceral experience for me and it wasn't like I was looking for it it just happened and as asab stop I say whoa the energy is different here and I I was suddenly I was in the bus but all the chit and chatting going on it just it all evaporated and it was like I could connect to something else it's I could hear almost the voice if you like in my head of Francis and his connection to simple things in life like nature suddenly I could see the birds flying outside I could see the flowers and I just felt so connected and I just felt full of joy and I think that's one of the things that we associate with Francis finding joy and in our lives in our daily lives sometimes that is lacking for many reasons sometimes good reasons but trying to reconnect with that sense of hope of joy of even fraternal love so this this is this is was my experience and I hope uh you may be able one day to come as well and see what you feel wow that's amazing and to people that are uh watching us at this point um some of us hadn't uh met yet personally yeah so all this U loving atmosphere and this fraternal love as Marcel was uh saying previously uh it surrounds us and even if we are not close together but uh even

of us hadn't uh met yet personally yeah so all this U loving atmosphere and this fraternal love as Marcel was uh saying previously uh it surrounds us and even if we are not close together but uh even if we are you know and people can be seeing this can be watching this in another time in another period and far away but we are all connected to each other in a sense that when we get in this vibration when we get in this space within ourselves where uh we really connect to this love that was the uh example that uh Joanna and Francis Francis offices gave through their Liv in taking care of you know people sick the poor and being being very very loving to each other to Nature so when we connect to this Dimension it's not outside of ourselves I think your example both of you gave it's within ourselves and it's there people it's not you know something that we have to struggle so much to find we just have to clean a little bit we have a window here in our back uh and and all this light coming in and we know and you later on maybe Mara can put a photograph for you all but uh we know that the light is coming through so the symbolism of the of the window you know when the window opens to the outside is an expansion of consciousness but it's not the intellectual uh part of our Consciousness is you know this the heart that uh the the Consciousness and the realization that an openness that the heart gives to us so I I was listening to you both and I was imagining St Francis as a young uh son of a rich family and with all these ideas of being a KN it was you know really an achievement at that point and his father wanted him very much to be a knight and so he goes to the Crusades for instance and uh a lot of things happen I I do hope everybody reads s Francis uh history it's really beautiful uh but what I was thinking is that how we would feel if we can uh just uh approach his story what he tells us about people that wrote about him and how he would feel uh feeling all this uh light coming

h but what I was thinking is that how we would feel if we can uh just uh approach his story what he tells us about people that wrote about him and how he would feel uh feeling all this uh light coming from deep within him as an said going getting out of the bus as you said also just you know feeling the atmosphere here if we get almost you know we we almost burst into tears right we feel really strong and our blood pressure goes like this so can you imagine St Francis as a young uh young person a young boy and feeling all this uh this calling inside how he would have uh felt that what do you imagine what uh you know what your ideas that you couldn't share with people yeah I think that that's really interesting because we have like sometimes this uh conflict between what's coming in from inside our these ideals and this this Force that's wanted to burst forth and on the outside US wanting to sort of meet our fam's uh plan for us what Society expects and us really wanting to fit in as well isn't it be part and be successful and do what is expected of us and yet inside there is this fire that's consuming us and it it can create some conflict I think and you know who wins who wins it's it's it's uh and I think then as we get older sometimes we let that fire die away because the outside world has dominated our lives and we've become completely focused on the outside world and and we we have stopped listening to that inner voice and stopped feeling that inner fire and I think it's interesting to like to reconnect so I think Francis obviously at some point must have allowed that that inner uh light inner fire well I'm calling it fire but it's a good fire just to burst forth and to somehow let itself manifest I was thinking about two things one thing is about um the Knighthood which was for especially for his father you know an expectation because uh they were very rich but they they didn't have titles so Knighthood in the family would bring a different kind of pre Prestige

which was for especially for his father you know an expectation because uh they were very rich but they they didn't have titles so Knighthood in the family would bring a different kind of pre Prestige and um and and then again how we imagine to uh go up in the ladder of social life socio economical life and not thinking that you know thinking about going up in terms of the spiritual Le is so much more important and so they they they couldn't properly um uh you know value what was happening but also a point that is important for us to think about because uh uh it's easy or or many times when we we are reading the stories of uh you know the life of uh those great characters like Francis of aisi we think that you know it happened over night he just woke up one day and said no now you know the calling or are we hear about about the voices or build my church but the thing is even when he went to to war when he went with the Crusades when he went with a war to the peruja he uh was kept a prisoner for a year in very difficult conditions he he got back Ill so we can imagine that during this whole process of being captive and uh he had a lot a lot of time to you know to to think about life to meditate so all of that I think it was like you know preparing the terrain for the seeds at the right time you know to come in and and and manifest so let us not think because this can lead us uh when we are trying to do the same thing to frustration because um we think oh you know if I cannot wake up tomorrow as a missionary it's never going to happen if you think like this it's never it's never gonna gonna happen so we have to to understand that there is a whole process yes there's a whole process and um the thing that I wanted to uh remember everybody to remind everybody is that uh the ego has to be strong we were talking about this previously and mature enough to surrender to this forces in a way that is not outside of the world and because we need to relate to each other we need to relate to the

trong we were talking about this previously and mature enough to surrender to this forces in a way that is not outside of the world and because we need to relate to each other we need to relate to the world that we are living in but we also this is a paradox because we also uh need to contact as then was telling with this inner fire with our calling so to balance this uh Force so we need the ego to be strong enough and to be mature and I was um just um when listening to you just remembering that moment when St Francis takes off his clothes when he says to his father that uh okay so I'm giving you back everything that you gave me of course he could not give back that the life that the father gave but in a sense uh in a material sense right and um so we we have the clothes for instance our dreams as a symbol is of the Persona the part of the ego then uh the ego accepts its conscious the the qualities the characteristics and that helps us to adapt in the world so in a moment that we are taking off let's say it was a dream that we were analyzing if we are taking off our clothes it means that uh we are you know um kind of saying to our Persona as you were saying okay um this is part of me was part of me in case of St Francis but it doesn't belong to me anymore uh so I can just imagine that he had to be really strong to you know to uh surrender to this inner calling and I wanted to um to read to you a small sentence it's deep but it's a small by Lono y Lono Corbett uh he is a y analyst that uh writes a lot about the religious function of the psych and about this deep um we call the transpersonal dimension of the site which means our deep deep unconscious that uh it's there that we are all one in a sense of what we call the collective unconscious and with these old uh types old forms that we call the archetypes that are ancient forms that we all it's our heritage human Heritage all of us have uh and live actually uh with like we would say like a spiritual DNA let's okay so we all have these ancient forms

pes that are ancient forms that we all it's our heritage human Heritage all of us have uh and live actually uh with like we would say like a spiritual DNA let's okay so we all have these ancient forms that can manifest in our lives and Lon Corvett says uh the archetypal Lev level of our being is a dimension of our spiritual source and so is outside of time and space in the ordinary sense of these words it is therefore not a part of the develop development model of human growth yet paradoxically participates within it which means when we are talking about our spiritual Source okay that it's going to manifest in life and the spir is knowledge right talks a lot about this that we before coming before incarnating we plan our Incarnation the major parts major challenges that we are going to face with our guides spiritual guides so uh in this at this uh Point like St Francis already knew if we could say deep within himself that he had a path he had a mission and we know that he was uh less like we could say in a common sense best friends with Jesus right so he came in in a dark it was middle age in a dark moment of our history uh to remind everyone what love was all about the love that Jesus Christ was talking about and this love that deep within our pych is not outside tell us that we are all one and we are not disconnected to each other from each other that we are the Fraternal love makes all of the sense in psychological sense because it's there in this deep dimension of the pych that we are one we have the same same common Heritage H the only different is what it's going to be active in our lives okay so is that complicated a little bit maybe maybe I'm of of all of you the one with less s psychological studies actually none at all just learning as I'm going along but I just think this idea I've heard it before from other cultures as well about this feeling of being connected to everything that when people have like this kind of experience which is like almost like a you know um

his idea I've heard it before from other cultures as well about this feeling of being connected to everything that when people have like this kind of experience which is like almost like a you know um a numinous experience of it and there they say I felt connected and that everything was one so I've never had that experience in this life at leer I have memory and I find it quite difficult to imagine how that would be because all my life and making your different from everything to make myself myself identity that I am different from you that I'm different from you and I'm building this all my life so then I wonder how it is to certainly feel all like one I don't know how I haven't experienced it and maybe it's something to experience rather than to intellectualize about uh so everybody talks about the numinous that it means the same sacred yeah and we say that a numinous experience um to the ego the ego feels uh we we use the terms by hood of Auto and the ego feels like it's a mysterium tremendous at fascin it's in Latin so it's mysterious tremendous and fascinating okay so you have had an a numinous experience for instance we are talking to people now when you got out of the bus so in this sense the ego when you start you know you felt all the emotion because the ego feels like overwhelmed with emotion suddenly you feel speechless every you said yourself that everything disappeared this is a numinous experiences I experience I present to you alive alive oh my God that is so interesting sometimes we just don't how the vocabulary you don't realize that that's what okay it's so interesting so thank you yes it's well it's not me Joanna and S Franc then of course it's the psychosphere that we were talking about um that we are not it's not plain but I just realized and it's the first time that you are telling me when you arrived that you felt that so that's a numinous experience so when we have a dream for instance that connects to something you know that um the ego canot not only

time that you are telling me when you arrived that you felt that so that's a numinous experience so when we have a dream for instance that connects to something you know that um the ego canot not only cannot explain but the emotion is really strong and gives the ego this um this feeling of being of being overwhelmed by something greater so at that's a point when the ego is really uh feeling surrendering to what we call the self or the the higher Consciousness that it's Joanna tells us that is our spirit so what do you think about that she I really went to you know to a totally different place because when she was talking about it in this you know kind of experience and I I couldn't exp you know quite well or consciously feel that I was thinking about that story about the when the B butterfly flips it wing on the other you know part of the world the whole energy the the winds everything is going to receive an impact on that in relation because of because of that and then I it came to my mind as well that that that um um statement by Jesus when he says look at the lad at the valley not even Solomon in all his its Glory dressed like one of the of them imagine what God would be for you doing for you something like this so I was thinking okay the butterfly flips its wings and then I you know it changed the wings and everything if we are talking in this level of material things and uh you know physical place can I imagine you know the the network that exists Among Us in terms of energy sometimes I say um we may find ourselves at home and all of a sudden you you you feel like a surge of sadness or anguish it may be because in some part of the world something is happening that you know that wave of emotion comes to us and for a moment we ATT tuned with that and then you say why am I feeling like this and so it's this I had a a numinous experience because you see that's that's amazing we can feel that's the atmosphere of the city people come please at some point because listening to J now see how it's

so it's this I had a a numinous experience because you see that's that's amazing we can feel that's the atmosphere of the city people come please at some point because listening to J now see how it's connecting um I have heard many times it's a Chaos Theory this of the butterfly but as a young analyst um actually it's the first time and I think of course it's because of this that I uh connect with the symbolism also because I was all quantum physics and and right and the chaos theory but then if you connect to the symbolism the butterfly is a classical symbol of the psych the psych is our soul okay and uh the wind when right FES yeah the wind that can breach China or whatever part of distant part of the world for us the wind is a classical symbol of the spirit okay so I had an Insight a spiritual Insight that um the struggle that our psych our soul here incarnated on Earth in the material world has to do uh to develop and to uh to realize the archetypal level to Incarnate as L cor says the archetypal level of the psych uh incarnating here in the material world and doing the job it is supposed to do to expand Consciousness right and this this expansion will be in our spirit because we know that everything that we leave are leing is not wasted right it's uh it's going to be in our spiritual memory and it's going to help us through uh this um Ascension path like in the bus in the bottom of the hill and struggling carrying our luggage I'm very symbolic now up the hill to reach uh to reach and to you know to connect with all this loving energy that s and S Clair left to us here alive so I think I had a numinous experience great two already we and U this Con this connection that we are feeling here and we haven't playing we are we were just talking before but um I'm quite sure that's an example that they all want to give uh to give us and that we can share with every body that are listening to us that uh this fraternal love is when our ego stop thinking so much about the camera and

n example that they all want to give uh to give us and that we can share with every body that are listening to us that uh this fraternal love is when our ego stop thinking so much about the camera and about about what we are going to say is that correct or not and then we can connect uh to to our hearts to what comes to your mind what comes to your mind what comes to mind and then we get this insights together isn't that beautiful and I was thinking what you were saying if at our level we can already experience such emotions and connection when we think about Francis ofi and and Claire Joanna h i I think even hard for us to to try to imagine what they feel and what level they go in terms of uh receiving the the the inspiration the guidance and uh but at the same time you know the more we we grow in this sense uh you know living like I say living the Persona going into um the self the the realization the more we we feel peace as well and are more tolerant compass passionate in relation with others that's why sometimes for us it's so hard to understand how come those uh special beings could cope with us right and say oh my God I can barely cope with someone that it's basically the same level or even better than I am imagine then being at this level of spiritual evolvement and U and having to relate with us so it's it's it's when we feel the love when we feel the understanding when we feel that they they they they know the process and um and and I think it's it's beautiful because uh it shows us that that the ways exactly this one is the way of you know um getting together of doing together of growing together helping each other you know in the weaknesses that we have and and and what we can exchange change in the sense I I just S I want to say something as you was speaking something popped into my head very unexpectedly maybe and I can help us because when you saying I wonder how it is to be like Francis or High Spirit how they feel and what came to my mind was like lots of our difficulties with one

very unexpectedly maybe and I can help us because when you saying I wonder how it is to be like Francis or High Spirit how they feel and what came to my mind was like lots of our difficulties with one another is because we see in the other the reflection of our shadows but they if their Shadows are reduced or they have no Shadows they only see the light in each other so they don't get irritated with the others like we do maybe something like that occurred to me yeah yeah we would say the integration of the Shadow right um because um every everybody in and everything evolves so even our people that uh we regard as sense like St Francis St CLA they have evolved they are evolving it's endless right the evolution of the spirit and so at some point they felt the same thing we we we should think right because from the Adam to the Archangel right so I like to think like of them about them like older brothers and sisters that have already uh follow the path so they know deep inside of course this knowledge um that what goes through our hearts so we I I think at this point that when we are thinking this way that we we shouldn't worry to think oh um he's so Out Of Reach or she's so Out Of Reach um how many incarnations I would have I would need to to get because in this archetypal level of the psych you remember what I read there's no space and time so the the Archangel that we are going to be at some point in our evolution in this non Duo approach is already there in the atom and vice ver Versa the the atom that the Archangel was one day will be always with him or she whatever it's right so um that's something quite different for us to understand but uh it's something very important to understand in this uh development when we still need an NE and we and in this in the Incarnation okay uh we we have the ego and the self like we need this um conversation develop develop this uh talk between the ego and the self and the our our higher consciousness but at the same point at the same point we

we have the ego and the self like we need this um conversation develop develop this uh talk between the ego and the self and the our our higher consciousness but at the same point at the same point we already in this out of space and time reality that is happening now it's not something something in the future uh we are really one and the Archangel that we are going to be one day it's already present in Us in potential right I don't know if I I kind of got got a little because uh it comes to my mind all these images but I think it's very important to to get to this um this perception of ourselves that we don't have to worry so much with uh with what we call the Shadows okay have I answered you yeah kind of yes and I I think for me it's quite it's it's difficult to hold the idea intellectually but I can almost feel it in the heart so it's like I'm not sure that you know I can really understand like how can things be existing at the same time but that's just because of of how I am where I am at the moment but I have in my heart I know that that is potentially how it is it's quite interesting because it seems like a conflict almost yeah yeah and it is and Yung says that uh it causes a paradox it talks about the cross as a symbol of uh sacrifice in the sense that um there is strong forces okay pulling you to different sizes in the cross so this Paradox we have to you know just be able to live with it uh but I think it's very very important that we realize that uh deep within what we call the transpersonal dimension of the pych we are one because we we are emanations if we could say of the same Source the same light that we call God or Ultimate Reality doesn't matter how you call it uh but we all come from this source and we are going back to this source with all our experiences um you know through different life uh Cycles so I think it's um just a concept to have in mind when things get really tough and they can get in our lives to have like a you know like the butterfly that struggles so

rough different life uh Cycles so I think it's um just a concept to have in mind when things get really tough and they can get in our lives to have like a you know like the butterfly that struggles so much to get out of the Cocoon right but then when finally it gets out of the Cocoon it's so beautiful and it flies so you know lightly uh but also it uh lives very shortly lives the material life one day one day so all that struggle and that beautiful flight and that beautiful beautiful uh Wings where do they go what what was the P purpose of the butterfly but if everything like St Francis and S CLA taught us uh are interconnected there's nothing wasted because all of that beauty all of that joy that we were talking previously is with in our uh Heritage common Heritage in the archetypal level and it's for us we are children of this beautiful light and Heritage and one thing that is beautiful and when we are talking about it and thinking and meditating about their lives is that um you know the sign to know that a spiritual has already achieved this nomal stage you know this transcendental state is that they they never reproach they teach they teach by examples they te Teach by words uh they try to guide us but there is no referent and uh and I think this is is the main characteristic that we we see in terms of those spirits and when we study the life of both uh Frances of Cy and and CLA is that is you know is the Embrace is the acceptance but at the same time you know showing us the path where we should be tracking and and and in all this um you know uh this experience that we are living now I I think um it teaches us so much in relation to how to connect to others as well and how should we uh buy their examples and of course the example of Christ himself that did the same you know never condemn condemning even at the cross uh forgiving the one that said I I Repent because I'm here I deserve to be here you don't and and so I think that we we should take this we should take this

never condemn condemning even at the cross uh forgiving the one that said I I Repent because I'm here I deserve to be here you don't and and so I think that we we should take this we should take this sentiment with us and um and this is definitely going to help us in our relationships in in our personal growth as well so I think we are coming to the end of this amazing for me at least I hope for everyone that it's at home watching us and um I would finish um you know my my my part here in our frat Jal meeting with um this idea that um you know the sacred it's at our disposal let's say it's um it's a part that it's um it's the source that it's not outside it's the finding this path as was was saying it's um the way that this great and beautiful Souls like St Francis and St CLA shows us and of course like Jesus came to show us the the path um to find this source of Light Of Joy of peace and love with of everything that is good and it's there for us to use in our experience so it is sometimes hard because we have to the path uh it's not um outward it uh inwards right so uh and we are going to find some characters there that are not very friendly like our shadows some complexes but if we can act with us with the same love that uh this beautiful souls like St Francis and St Clair have towards ourselves if we can act towards ourselves with the same love that they have towards us and towards all humanity and toward towards everything animals nature minerals everything our beautiful beautiful planet so I'm quite sure that we are going to be less afraid of ourselves and we will project less onto others so this Shadows like and was uh uh talking before that we project things that we are afraid uh from ourselves we project onto others and then we get all this uh confusion uh in our relationships so if we can trust this path that they are showing us okay uh trust the butterfly trust the Wind Trust nature trust love we are going to be safe and we are going to uh do all this path uh towards our

so if we can trust this path that they are showing us okay uh trust the butterfly trust the Wind Trust nature trust love we are going to be safe and we are going to uh do all this path uh towards our own evolution in a more joyful and a more peaceful way in a more loving way don't know if any would like no I just think you you just put it all summarized it so beautifully I I I want to leave it as you've said it and I think that everybody can listen to that and just find those little nuggets of of light uh of um of inspiration see what touches you on your heart because we are all different at different moments of our lives and we will be touched by different things so I hope that when you listen to this there will be something somewhere that will touch you St Francis is with us thank you so much we'll see you in the next episode bye bye