Ep 163 - Depression and Soul Crisis

Hello everyone. Welcome to psychology and spirituality, a bridge to a better life discussion. I'm here with Dr. Sonia Doy in a conversation about topic that is not so easy. We're going to talk about depression. How you doing Sonia? Hi Marsha, I'm well and I'm very grateful for the opportunity to be here in this conversation and I hope that I can bring some enlightenment especially inspired by Joanna the angels. >> Yes. Yes. And I'm sure you will. But uh everyone we are addressing this subject that actually touches so many different people. It's about depression and how it reflects perhaps our soul, our spirit in a moment of crisis. So Sonia, just going to go right back at you. Can you talk a little bit about it? >> Yeah, Marca, I would like to start by giving some numbers because as you said, so many people are affected by depression. Clinical depression is a serious problem and the prevalence of depression may be even underestimated because not everybody seeks help clinical help. So only those who seek clinical help are counted in the statistical data. The World Health Organization in a report performed in 2025 estimated that approximately 4% of the world population suff suffers from depression. However, this preval 4% is already a big number but >> uh um the prevalence varies from country to country. uh in some countries for example like United States the public health survey in 2021 revealed that the rate of depression was 8.5%. So more than double of the world rate and in Brazil the depression rate is even higher. In a survey done in 2019, uh the rate was over 10%. >> So 10% one in 10 uh people show symptoms or are treated for depression. And note that this survey was done prior to the pandemic. So I guess you know we know how much pandemic uh made this even more severe. So probably the rates today is a little higher. >> So depression is is coded by um a as major depressive disorder MDD. That's how it's known in the clinical world under the diagnostic and statistical

So probably the rates today is a little higher. >> So depression is is coded by um a as major depressive disorder MDD. That's how it's known in the clinical world under the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorder. So it is a given entity in in in the diagnostic uh um manuals and it's defined as a persistent intense and at least u two week period of depressed mood u or loss of interest lo in life. along with four additional symptoms. Fe fatigue, sleep issues, feeling of guilt, appetite change or some other uh physical um symptoms and it it's something that cause significant social or functional impairment. So that's how depressive uh major depressive disorder is defined in the for clinicians. It's persistent more than a two week period of this depressed mood with uh including physical symptoms. >> Can you tell us again what those symptoms are Sonia? There are many symptoms but this is just you know we we need four to make this as a a a whole diagnosis. Um they the clinicians need at least four physical symptoms. For example, fatigue, sleep issues, either sleeping too much or having insomnia, feeling of guilt, appetite change, for example, having anorexia or having eating too much. Um some other symptoms of depression. uh for example um feeling anxious and so there are several different points sometimes pulpations >> as part of the >> uh you know symptoms that uh um show anxiety sometimes and even some symptoms like uh increased blood pressure uh increased heart In other words, it's all of us, right? >> That just the symptoms and at large, by and large, our society is a society of uh uh fatigued society that we need to either drink too much coffee to pick me up or uh some anything to to to h help us sleep uh and we eat too much, we don't eat enough. So all of those things and I and I'm um may sound that I'm joking but this is really serious because >> serious >> right >> it's almost like all of us are susceptive to uh becoming depressed from a clinical perspective if it also

and I'm um may sound that I'm joking but this is really serious because >> serious >> right >> it's almost like all of us are susceptive to uh becoming depressed from a clinical perspective if it also contains the persistent intense mood disorder. Right. >> Exactly. And some of these uh physical symptoms for example gastrointestinal symptoms. So the person may have a uh gastrointestinal symptoms diarrhea or >> chronic pain and you know the physician is there looking for physical uh illness. >> Yeah. And it's all related to depression to the you know connected with the emotional distress mental distress. So it's very important that all this is is looked into all three aspects of the human being of uh human health >> and and it's so funny and that's funny I just have to tell sorry to interrupt you but it's very interesting because I just had a physical my annual physical exam and uh it's a new doctor so we we spent I maybe 30 minutes going over my history. So father's side, mother's side, myself, my siblings, what is that uh the genetic uh coding that uh uh I could provide and then um they stopped by saying what about depression and anxiety and it was very interesting and I don't remember when it has become more commonly so that to to in this case me to make this assessment of how I am doing. Yes, we have genetics, we have environmental perhaps, but then what about this emotional aspect, my psychological aspect? How am I doing? And I thought it was very very interesting to to to have that uh conversation. >> Absolutely. And you touched on a point that is very important. The causes of depression may come from biological factors. So a family that has a history of depression or anxiety that is sometimes related or correlated comes into you know families. That means if your fam if you have a history family you are more susceptible vulnerable to also um have depression. >> Not that this is in you know this is important is a higher risk. It's not a must. So uh it's important that the

have a history family you are more susceptible vulnerable to also um have depression. >> Not that this is in you know this is important is a higher risk. It's not a must. So uh it's important that the person doesn't get nervous. Oh my god, my family. There's a lot of depression there. I'm going to be depressed. No, there are a lot of things that may be involved there, but there is a genetic trait. Uh also disregulation of some neurochemicals uh that we call scientifically as neurotransmitters. There are three that are mo the most important um dopamine, serotonin and norepinephrine. These three we we may call hormones, we may call uh neuropeptides or neurotransmitter is the inure name I would say h but they are related to mood and stress regulation. Mhm. >> So a disregulation of these hormones or neurotransmitter may make the person more prone to depression. So a decrease in any of this especially seron and there's also some related some endocrine diseases for example um elevated blood cortisol and this is typically in syndrome called uh cushioning syndrome. So there's a lot of other things that are shown on Cushing syndrome, but the elevated levels of cortisol may trigger depression because it will disregulate serotonin orphine, dopamine hormones. So these are >> and and it's very interesting. Sorry to interrupt you again because we start to see number one that is widespread because of our lives. Oh, they are complicated, right? But also all those things that your body and we could say in in more vulgar terms, my body is betraying me by releasing this or that hormones from cortisol to, I don't know, dopamine or serotonin, etc., etc. But it it really speaks to the complexity of that environment, that landscape, if you will, that leads someone to be clinically depressed. That's right. However, there is uh something that I must say there. Many people consider that I'm depressed because I have an imbalance in hormones. >> Sure. Uh but to this day we don't know for sure if

at's right. However, there is uh something that I must say there. Many people consider that I'm depressed because I have an imbalance in hormones. >> Sure. Uh but to this day we don't know for sure if this neuro hormones serotonin or nephrine dopamine are a true cause or sometimes effect of the emotional imbalance. You know what I mean? So they could cause for sure. That's no question. A decrease in any of these three could cause depression. However, in some patients when you normalize the hormones, depression is still there. >> Yeah. >> And there's other cases when the person has an imbalance in the hormones and do not have depression. So it's not a 100% true that these hormones will be imbalanced when we have depression. Yes, it may. And if you have uh dysregulation, it's more likely that you would express pressure, but not all the not all the time. It's different with the genetic vulnerability. Sometimes there are alterations in certain genes and nowadays there are several genes that are related to depression and these genes will some of them will impair the release of sardonin nor epinephrine etc. But >> yeah, this is this is really fascinating, right? Uh what there is no definitive there is a correlation but there is no definitive causation one causing the other or one is the result of the other. Right. So fascinating. Yeah. And you know the most important and and I think the books uh by Jonah D'Angel bring that so clear to us >> and if we look nowadays into many um textbook medical textbooks or they also bring that in because you know things have been moving and uh being changing uh with time. Uh so nowadays there's a lot more uh importance into the psychological effects >> in our physical health. So because of that nowadays there's more acceptance that depression starts by emotional disturbances. If you have those hormones altered, um you may get depression just by the alterations. But if you all your hormones are absolutely normal, you may still have depression because

emotional disturbances. If you have those hormones altered, um you may get depression just by the alterations. But if you all your hormones are absolutely normal, you may still have depression because the there are several non-biological factors that may induce depression. >> Yeah. Can we talk a little bit about those multi- I would say dimensional aspects of depression when you have a chance I think would be good for us to see not it's not just purely chemical right >> what is it that that leads us if you will to a state of depression when we really need help and uh how to recognize those >> uh I would like to start by what Jonah genally says she considers that depression >> is uh affects the physical, the mental or emotional and spiritual dimensions uh of health. So, uh we're going to be talking a little bit about all these. But um in the clinical field they cons they they there's a list uh of some of these non-biological factors that uh contribute to depression. For example, uh identity or ex existential conflict, previous emotional traumas, um early life neglect, abuse, and we also can consider, you know, neglect that starts during pregnancy. >> And you think, how does that happen? Well, we in the spiritist know that the spirit is already there, right? and and it can kind of perceive that. Um, >> can I say something that it just brought to Google this uh oh my goodness little article and uh and I don't even know the validity if it's good bad or even just completely wrong but uh uh it made me think of it Sonia it was um so you know uh when I was pregnant it was very interesting because I did not have a one not even once the the feeling of nausea or morning sickness etc. So I mentioned to to a friend who was very pregnant and she was like oh my gosh you're so lucky this is so rare. So anyways, and then I came across this little article that talked about, it's a spiritist article, by the way, that talked about that uh those of us that go through a lot of morning sickness, it it is a a telltale

d then I came across this little article that talked about, it's a spiritist article, by the way, that talked about that uh those of us that go through a lot of morning sickness, it it is a a telltale that my spirit and that spirit inside of me are already having issues kind of harmonizing. Uh and there's some conflict if you will prior to that pregnancy that is it it really requires us to be very present in embracing that state of being pregnant of becoming right you're not a mother just by pregnancy but becoming a mother and and that is uh something that we should all look into it as in I welcome you I love you can even say out loud etc etc but I don't know if you heard anything about it and and when you say it it comes before the pregnancy we from a spiritual uh perspective we we know that right >> exactly we know in spiritism that there there's a lot that goes on before even before one gets pregnant right >> uh the the acceptance of that spirit that's going to come through and during pregnancy. So if if there is like a um uh harmony between the spirits, the mother and the child and the father also uh everything should go more smoothly and uh there's a there's a a book I cannot remember now is exactly name but I have the book >> by Dr. Chamberlain. He's a a psychologist and he dedicated a lot of studies to the unborn child. Of course he he doesn't talk much about he mentions the spirit but he says uh in a maybe not exactly as we spiritist but any anyways he has a lot of um research that was done and psychotherapy of for example an adult or adolescent that goes back into regression. and it starts to report things that happened during pregnancy and all the um very aggressive environment and all that was bottled up and was manifested when they were adults into depress depression or anxiety or you know so and you know there are many parents that during pregnancy they use um some techniques to talk to the child to sing to >> you know that that's really something that uh may be very useful very

u know so and you know there are many parents that during pregnancy they use um some techniques to talk to the child to sing to >> you know that that's really something that uh may be very useful very beneficial >> and and I and I have to say as a woman who who got married very young and uh who who had a very uh a pregnancy when I was very very young. I I say I despite of uh my life circumstances, it was a very happy process. But we don't know, right? We don't know if this is a I don't know uh a pregnancy during adolescence or uh unwanted. There's so many factors. But I think what you're saying here uh Sonia is for us to really reflect upon the fact that doing those months um in uterine right that that the child is in in in the process of uh the gestation of the mother and the child is a moment that is really critical for later in their adulthood to feel welcome. welcome to feel belong, a sense of belonging, a sense of love. So, it's just a a reflection for all of us. If we're not the ones being pregnant, how can we provide that support to those who are, right? Regardless, >> regardless of the circumstances. >> Absolutely. Yeah. So uh other um very common cause of depression major life changes, divorce, retirement, migration from one country to another you know with all the family problems that that may come um social economical adversities. So all these major life changes uh disrupt the the harmony uh of life of the mind of all the psychological state. So, it's something that we need to think about um that this requires some kind of um u help uh and we're going to be talking a little bit more about how we can uh help a person who is uh going through these challenges. >> Yeah. um work related burnout and we we have seen that a lot during uh the pandemic, right? How much how many people uh start suffering from depression because of work burnout. >> Um and uh something that is very interesting persistent nostalgia. I would like to talk a little bit about nostalgia,

uch how many people uh start suffering from depression because of work burnout. >> Um and uh something that is very interesting persistent nostalgia. I would like to talk a little bit about nostalgia, >> but you know, so all those are non-biological sources or factors that can trigger can lead to depression. >> Yeah. And just picking up on what you said with the persistent nostalgia, I know that you lived many years outside of your home country just like uh I do right now. And uh that is something very a phenomenon that's very present in anyone that has perhaps left their their place of birth, their family that are out there on uh selfexile if you will. It it is something very uh powerful that uh that longing to to go back this uh this sense of uh there's something missing and it is um expressed by nostalgia. Right. >> Exactly. >> I miss something. I don't know what it is and I know that it doesn't exist anymore but I feel it. >> That's right. >> Can you give me just a minute? >> Sure. Sure. Absolutely. Just a second. Yeah. So, just to to to recap what Sonia was saying while she had to to move away for a few minutes. Um there are many dimensions of depression and uh um she mentioned mental, emotional, uh physical, spiritual, right? And those dimensions often are ignored when we seek help or we self-identify. Right? So it's it's very important for us to understand the complexity of it all of it all. And and finally what she said um about uh what Joanna D'Angelus brings to us that uh not only it can be psychological but spiritual at its core and we can we can see that the deep suffering emerges from identity conflicts right uh those uh unresolved grief or persistent nostalgia as we mentioned. So for me it's it's so important for us to to be kind to ourselves to be um I was just recapping Sonia what you said. Uh so just recapping um what we talked thus far because it just really speaks about the complexity of our feelings and how important it is to perhaps pay attention. But go ahead Sonia. Yeah.

you said. Uh so just recapping um what we talked thus far because it just really speaks about the complexity of our feelings and how important it is to perhaps pay attention. But go ahead Sonia. Yeah. >> Yeah. We're talking about um nostalgia and it's important to remember that nostalgia can lead into depression. But what is actually nostalgia? something that can be manifested when we start like missing something. There's something there that is we bring some memories and of happy moments, happy things that happened in the past. And but we cannot relieve that. We cannot go back into that. So I may remember something that happened in my life that made me so happy but now I don't have that anymore. either is a condition or is a uh some place where I used to live before or some friends or situations before and now I cannot have that. So it brings that type of sadness. >> Yeah. Um and if that that may be okay that may be you know something that any of us could have and is even healthy you know it's not something bad >> but when that becomes persistent you were said every day that lasts more than two weeks and you still sad and you cannot go on with your life because that's a fixed thought that you're missing those good moments that you're not happy. Uh when that persists that may become depression. >> So recollecting happy moments >> is normal. We all do that, right? >> We all do that. And sometimes the recollections and that's something interesting. Sometimes the recollections are from this life and sometimes you cannot point it out. I'm missing something. I don't even know what it is. But it's something >> that I can't it it's there. I cannot reach anymore. And that may be from my past existence. >> Yeah. And in the case of um um you you know this Sonia, my father-in-law is uh suffering senile dementia and uh for the longest time uh he kept going to his first real job. Now this is a man in his 90s, right? uh but recollecting that moment in time that crystallized uh maybe uh the ability to he he went to

uh for the longest time uh he kept going to his first real job. Now this is a man in his 90s, right? uh but recollecting that moment in time that crystallized uh maybe uh the ability to he he went to live in in Japan, right? So, uh to to to move away from his home country and the sense of adventure, but he just kept going for that. That is gone now. This is a while ago and now he moved on to his grandparents home. Now the interesting thing and he keeps saying can we go there can we visit how far is it that he keeps going uh asking the logistical details about coming to visit his grandparents' home. Interesting enough um there was a dam that was built and the whole city is gone. Right. it doesn't exist but in in somebody who's going through dementia you cannot really talk about it but it it speaks to that that uh that nostalgia that looking for something that was there and I can only talk about in my in my way that I relate to him is let's talk about the feelings right not the moment brings up a feeling that made you feel good and you want go back to that. But um but I I think what you said is also very true. Sometimes it's not your childhood anymore. It is something that it is um recorded if you will in our memory, spiritual memory, but not consciously in this memory of this incarnation. >> Yeah. I have an you know one one um example to that >> if I may um room to share that many of you may know in one of his lectures that he gave in our spirit center he told us about a nostalgia that he used to feel every day at sunset he said every day at sunset said, "I could not." He He would break into tears. He couldn't not help. >> He would break the tears looking at the sundown. And he said he was reminiscing the time when in the spirit world in previous existences. He joined other spirits in for the evening prayer for the vaspers. And he said was about six o'clock in the afternoon. The sun was coming down and he felt that sadness and he broke into tears and when he was young he could not

for the evening prayer for the vaspers. And he said was about six o'clock in the afternoon. The sun was coming down and he felt that sadness and he broke into tears and when he was young he could not understand why he was having that. >> Later on it was revealed to him you know and that was natural form of nostalgia. That's a >> normal and everyone could have something like uh like that. Um however when that becomes persistent and affect your daily life so you're not function anymore because you're so sad you're all the time thinking with the you know having that >> fixed thoughts that you're missing something you cannot function. So that becomes something that's not considered normal anymore and we it needs attention. It needs our attention, right? >> Yeah. mental health um professionals may be able to to to provide the help during those moments that it's persistent as we as you mentioned but it's just disrupting our sense of being able to function in in this life. Right. >> Right. Yeah. So that's how depression may help from all the factors that we already mentioned listed there from this type of nostalgia that could be healthy but if it's persistent it becomes depression. So when depression gets you know in our life in our daily life when this state of depression is persists we need to seek help and that's important for everyone because sometimes people neglect it and and think Oh, no. I if I go to a doctor, they're going to think I'm crazy. And you know, >> and there's no judgment, right? There should be no judgment whatsoever. >> Exactly. That's I think people need to realize. uh this is a is a a condition that everyone could um could suffer from and but there there's some kind of you know people do not want to accept it and I uh have a relative who is like that I don't want to go to a psychologist or psychiatrist because they're going to think I'm crazy >> taboo is still there huh so yeah the taboo is still uh we are unable to eradicate the taboo of seeking mental

t want to go to a psychologist or psychiatrist because they're going to think I'm crazy >> taboo is still there huh so yeah the taboo is still uh we are unable to eradicate the taboo of seeking mental health uh professional help does not mean quote unquote being crazy. Right. >> Exactly. So um it's important to realize uh and is important to act. >> Yeah. Depression is something that is telling us we need to act. We need some inner transformation. We need to modify our state of emotion, our how we react to things in life. But to do that, we first need to travel inside of us, find out what is that's causing this. Right? So yeah, you go to your doctor, the doctor will do a series of tests and of course that's needed because sometimes depression comes with other diseases. So it's important to once that they you know cleared the doctor says well I didn't find anything physical either if they find or not it's important to go to travel inside and look into what is that may be causing this. And sometimes it's difficult for us to identify what is the the factor that's you know because sometimes a person doesn't accept that I went you know I had some problems in my work work related problems uh with my boss or my colleagues and that may be causing all this or if I have uh a change from one country to another. I moved and now I having to adjust. My children has to adjust in school. My wife or my husband has to adjust in their um uh in work and you know all that causes stress. And this is stress. We need to work out with this stress. Uh but sometimes we are unable to do that alone. So it's important to identify the factors. >> Yeah, absolutely. Can we talk about um faith a little bit and how it uh plays into uh becoming depressed, becoming pathologically depressed and not usually a person who is depressed loses um faith uh faith in themselves. Mhm. >> Uh they don't trust anyone uh and they lose faith in God. For example, if the person is religious, if the person is a person who used to

who is depressed loses um faith uh faith in themselves. Mhm. >> Uh they don't trust anyone uh and they lose faith in God. For example, if the person is religious, if the person is a person who used to attend uh to go to church, they start going they start uh they completely disconnect because they feel that hey they they've been abandoned and >> they feel so bad and nobody's helping me. I'm completely uh alone here in this loneliness. It's not just it's not actually that they are lonely. They are disconnecting from their relatives, from the environment, from everyone and from God. >> Good point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I really like where you're going with that by the way which is uh loneliness is felt but it's really not loneliness it is disconnection and it's a such a an important topic right >> it's interesting that when you talk to patients and you uh you know you ask for example uh do you believe in God. So let's say a patient who is in a hospital hospitalized for cancer for example. >> Sure. And they are so you know feeling so bad because they already uh in in a situation when they they are very vulnerable and they are looking at maybe I'm going to die you know tomorrow a day after tomorrow but they they're seeing death very close and and seeing the end of life and at that point some patients s feel very angry uh and their anger is sometimes towards God. Why is God allowing this to happen to me? >> Yeah, >> God has abandoned me. I have prayed all my life and now I'm here and God's not helping me. I'm praying to be cured and I'm still here. And that brings a like is you know the person gets so angry against God and they completely disconnect from church from pastor or the priest or whatever is their religion. they don't want to attend any uh >> which is which is part of the social network right in terms of the social uh the network of support for that person and when the person needs the most is when he or her cuts that possibility to to provide the comfort that is really

ocial network right in terms of the social uh the network of support for that person and when the person needs the most is when he or her cuts that possibility to to provide the comfort that is really needed right >> and and that's why nowadays uh at least in There's a a a growing movement of bringing a religious leader into the clinical setting into the clinical team because they can help the patient and and say okay here is another way to look into a life. This is you know some consolation to the patient and and reestablishing that connection with God. But this is something that is very common in depressed patients. they completely lose connection and dangerous. Yeah, it's it's very sorry to interrupt again, but uh uh you made me think about uh a a book written by Lo Corbett and the title is soul in anguish, right? When he talks exactly one of his chapters he he speaks about the the the role of religion when you are suffering. So it's very interesting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And and this is disconnection from God is within the topic of spiritual suffering. >> Yeah. >> The person feels like spiritually rel in their religion in their faith they are >> abandoned. They're alone. They're disconnected. There's no help. So it it in in talking about this, I mean this is a a very important um source of of help for the person. >> Uh it we talked about professional help. So the person needs professional help from a physician, from a therapist, psychologist and but there are other other um resources to help that person. So the family member or a friend can relate this this person to seek for example um other resources like uh there's several holistic type of resources that they could help >> uh meditation or reconnecting with their religious faith. or whatever type of faith they have. >> And in um the spiritism for example, we have passes and we have uh ways that we can bring consolation to the person. But there's also other resources like Reiki that is used and there's even some

. >> And in um the spiritism for example, we have passes and we have uh ways that we can bring consolation to the person. But there's also other resources like Reiki that is used and there's even some research that was done with Reiki and made people you helped into uh decrease these symptoms of depression. So there's several other um meditation music therapy. Uh the NIH is carrying out uh uh research now for music therapy as of course therapy uh music as therapy um for several um problems and of course for mental disorders. Music therapy is very very interesting because it really con makes a connection with emotional >> you know with the emotion with some feelings with memories uh for for these patients art therapy sometimes and um uh meditation there's So the variety I would say the modalities um the most used nowadays is mindfulness but uh so there's several ways that we can actually direct the patients to look to seek help. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. So, so uh Sonia, I just see that we are getting close to our time to end. So, so this is I I always am amazed how wonderful it is to talk and time goes by, right? But I wanted to know maybe not only you spoke about some strategies to to help us but uh how can we distinguish between maybe my clinical depression from my soul going through some existential crisis? Do you do you see those uh uh that there are factors that can help me distinguish therefore understand how to better seek help? >> Um the soul crisis >> usually uh has a more psychological emotional components. >> Okay. And that starts with what we call nostalgia with some uh problems that I have to deal with in my life being uh stress from work or from um my connection with uh with God or so there are psychological problems that um may start affecting me slowly and growing into a crisis when I cannot find solution anymore. So I start with an ex existential um identity. for example, I cannot understand why I'm here, why uh who I am anymore. It's not exactly uh I don't find myself

isis when I cannot find solution anymore. So I start with an ex existential um identity. for example, I cannot understand why I'm here, why uh who I am anymore. It's not exactly uh I don't find myself into the uh my groups anymore. I don't connect. I don't recognize myself. And this might happen in periods. So if the period is small and then because I was so stressful that you know I had that but then it resolved it's okay it becomes a crisis when it gets persistent and then sometimes it starts starts with one element >> and there's an addition of others so it started with a burnout and now I'm feeling isolated olated and now I start um I don't trust anyone and now I don't trust God. So things start to grow into that psychological emotional dimension and this characterizes uh um soul crisis or spiritual crisis. However, it's when that becomes persistent, it starts to affect my physical health, my social um connections and that is when it becomes depression. >> Yeah. So absolutely one thing >> the the you know all these disturbances emotional uh problems emotional distress if I may may evolve into crisis and may evolve into depression. So there are different uh stages that may get worse and worse and worse. >> Yeah. So we we need to close now but I just wanted to remind everyone what Joanna tells us right about uh uh supporting us in through the crisis and uh and she tells us not to minimize how we feel but she reminds us that uh that um persistent emotional suffering can be a call for renewal. Is that >> right? So instead of us oh repressing all of this uh I and I see it like this cauldron this soup of emotions that is boiling instead of us like no no no I don't want to see it. uh according to Joanna, she she invites us to actually look at it because maybe it it is exactly what our souls are asking us to to look at it and do something different. Right. So you mention um active inner work, right? to confront the the conflicts and uh and uh really be part of your own healing. But there

are asking us to to look at it and do something different. Right. So you mention um active inner work, right? to confront the the conflicts and uh and uh really be part of your own healing. But there are other act um activities as she also suggests as we are closing here. Physical exercise, >> exercise, >> right? Therapeutical support. Uh love the work of Victor Frankle uh in in his body of work around logootherapy, right? But also many of these spiritual practice such as prayer you mentioned all of them but prayer meditation energy therapy acts of service and charity that's one of the best thing that you can do to come out of that sense of turmoil right >> absolutely because one thing that we must avoid is self-pity >> so we have to get out of ourselves to be active, get out of ourselves. Uh not just waiting for people to help us, but we have to help ourselves. Get out of that system and not see uh depression as a punishment, >> but see that as a a need to go inside and to renew ourselves. So it it yeah not feeling that not allowing self. >> Yeah. Yeah. So my final words as we say goodbye today is for all of us for you Sonia for me for all of of us who are here today is that this uh moment of crisis this moment of soul crisis can be indeed a a doorway if you will to transformation. But if we decide to ignore to neglect it may veer toward illness. So our invitation today is for all of us if we are struggling let us give ourselves the opportunity to seek or the advice the strong advice to seek help right professional help spiritual help human connection because none of us are insignificant. Everything, every one of us, everything we do is not oh say useless. Our existence is valuable is appreciated. It is um something that is very important for from our created creator God to all of us who are here. So even though we may feel this darkness enveloping us, maybe that's just before daybreak, the dawn, that is the light that we need to to come through. So let us be together in this moment, seek help

So even though we may feel this darkness enveloping us, maybe that's just before daybreak, the dawn, that is the light that we need to to come through. So let us be together in this moment, seek help and uh be aware that we we we have the light because this is a place of love, right, for all of us. >> But anyways, We are at time, Sonia. I'd love to to have you back when uh when you have a additional time. But for all of those who are here with us, thank you. Thank you, Sonia. Thank you all. And thank you all of our sponsors Camino, the United States Spiritist Federation, the International Spiritist Council, and um Amy Brazil. Thanks everyone and until next time. So long. >> So long.