Ep 5 - Psychology and Spirituality | The Pursuit of Reality - Pt 2

foreign welcome to the psychology and spirituality a bridge to a better life series of talks I'm your host Marcia trejano and with me is my co-host josada Korn God josada is currently the Secretary General of the international spiritus Council and former president and current Vice President of the United States spiritus Federation josada Beyond those those current uh assignments she has 30 years of work doing conducting fraternal conversations with many different organizations as an outreach program I'd love to to welcome all of you to thank you for joining us today and uh in our episode of this conversation I would like to say this talk was brought to us was by our friends at U.S spiritus Federation the United States spiritus Federation is an organization devoted to promoting this study dissemination and practice of the spiritist body of work it promotes the practice of spiritual in material charity and it represents the what we call the spiritus movement in the United States it was founded in 1997 and if you want to learn more about this amazing organization please visit spiritus.us site the psychology and spirituality program is also sponsored by other organizations including Army Brazil United States Spirits Federation as I said before and international spiritist Council make sure if you like what we're doing hit subscribe and um we want to know if you want to know more about other channels of discussions of the same topic please check us out at www.spiritus.us today we're here just started to continue our conversation about our last topic the pursuit of reality josara can you tell us a little bit about uh how we ended that uh that conversation yes sir Martha first let's say hello to everyone and of course by the sirens those that are familiar with the New York sound they are always present it's always part of our soundtrack right so hello Marcia hello everyone it's great to be back why don't you talk to us josad about uh how we left off last uh last week and uh last time we talked

esent it's always part of our soundtrack right so hello Marcia hello everyone it's great to be back why don't you talk to us josad about uh how we left off last uh last week and uh last time we talked about this topic I think we we can discuss that now what do you think sure absolutely last time that we were talking about the pursue of reality we ended quoting um one poem that we find in the work of Juana di Angela is one of the books um by by her that is called self-discovery and she says the following a spark starts a fire a bean of light opens a gap Into Darkness a drop of Bones softens afflictions a word of knowledge guides life and a gesture of Love inspires hope and gives peace and we said that this is a gesture of Love towards oneself when we Embark in this journey of self-discovery of really looking after reality the way it is real not necessarily the way we understand that it's so much more for us to find out about it right Marcia yeah yeah actually if we if we think about right I love what you said by the way it's a gesture of love right as we Embark in this journey but as a journey it implies a process it's not punctual it's not transactional it is a process and if we think about the process which is oh we can say a process of mindfulness right it is a process of perhaps uh looking very critically at our own feelings our reactions to external factors triggers what does that really mean to us why is that even important josada for us to be talking about this journey of self-discovery really seems sincere with ourselves I have I don't know uh if some of you are familiar or not with the 13 virtues that Benjamin Franklin wrote um it is a fact that Benjamin Franklin is still in his youth sorry he wrote a list of attributes that he found necessary for him to become a good person one of the things that one of those attributes of verb as he called is sincerity so there is no way we can get into this journey of self-discovery without applying this sincerity uh in our lives

erson one of the things that one of those attributes of verb as he called is sincerity so there is no way we can get into this journey of self-discovery without applying this sincerity uh in our lives um and I I also remember there is this one phrase that we learn in the New Testament by Jesus that says know the truth and the truth will set you free times we think about you know we are always looking outside we never think that this is a phrase that refers to ours it has everything to do with ourselves so I don't have to know the truth of of any other person I I'd have to know my truth I have to to Really look into myself and and not be afraid of seeing who I really am I am I am a working process okay so bet yourself in the magazine said if you if you see things that you don't like that much to say okay I'm a working in process you know when you get across those websites that under construction their construction yes yes I love it under construction and if if we think about it right um we we number one it's about strength courage perhaps to to go through with sincerity thank you for uh by the way for quoting Benjamin Franklin I I love his 13 virtuals uh that he applied to his entire life right as flawed as he was as flawed as we are it is good to have a sense or if we need that that that methodology to to help us but anyways applied sincerity and knowing accepting that we are only a work in progress we're not final we're not complete we're not there yet and it's important perhaps that the process highlights at a minimum at a minimum if we're courageous enough it will show us our vulnerabilities right our limitations um ah all that stuff that we're dependent upon uh it also I love to to think about it but it also uh highlights our aspirations and the trap that those aspirations have if we think about it I I grew up uh in this family we talked about last time we met uh in the context by which we we grow up and uh the aspirations are perhaps all based on what I may call false premise or not

nk about it I I grew up uh in this family we talked about last time we met uh in the context by which we we grow up and uh the aspirations are perhaps all based on what I may call false premise or not they're very truthful and and that's why uh Abraham I'm sorry uh Benjamin Franklin oh Abraham Lincoln Benjamin Franklin uh thank you for for for that push for us to be very sincere and as we confront we may also confront has the this aspiration really only materially driven or is it truthful in long term right uh also when we confront ourselves we huh we see some tricks that our ego flazo does and we also see how we are victims of the illusions that the world create so the question here is Point Counterpoint right josada it's behind everything we do there is a point Counterpoint and that journey of self-discovery brings us something that Joanna talks about which is I don't know if we can speak to that I I love the concept is decision making right the The Duality of negative versus positive point counter point uh everything that we decide today in this this process of discovery the self-discovery also brings us this enormous Legacy from our past and everyone that Legacy the residue if you will the remnants over pest achievements are part of who we are today so when we talk about perhaps looking ourselves intuitively or rationally we need to also understand that we may be trapped by what we've been and let it be the platform by which we will now move toward what we can become and not hold us into this this uh uh really prison enslaved by what we were but not what we can become so in that sense I just thought that maybe jassad I don't know if you're prepared to talk about it but maybe we can talk about the idea of what is our mission in life right how can we identify ourselves with that notion of a higher purpose in life or when we don't what leaves us in this place in this limbo of a knees oh I'm looking at myself but I don't feel quite right and we believe that this is because we're

otion of a higher purpose in life or when we don't what leaves us in this place in this limbo of a knees oh I'm looking at myself but I don't feel quite right and we believe that this is because we're not in tune with what is our true self and what is our true purpose in life you say marshadow the way I I see it we have so many lessons to learn from this 13th virtues by Benjamin Franklin one of the being not only of course the the virtues the 13 virtues but um to set up goals this is what he did he I mean I I cannot you know when you plan a a trip right you are going to to look at the itineraries see you know where you can um have food and which hotels are you going to stay what places are you going to be so we plan ahead so we cannot embark on a journey of self-discovery and this pursuit of reality we have without setting uh goals for ourselves and um I I think in a in a way this is another thing that I love about the 13 virtues of Benjamin Franklin the first starters it was only 12. and he eroded to himself and uh but one day he decided to share with a friend and the friend look at them I was very impressive but he said you know what you forgot the most important one and he said which one and then if the friend said it was her well humility immediately he agreed with that making a comment that it should be humble is so hard that even when you are acknowledging that we were truly humbled then you you no longer I love it very humble I think in a way I think humbles were there when he realized that he only could cope with 12 or now 13. right and I I think this is another direction as an another lesson that we can gather from from that you know of course if you want you can start using the same process as Benjamin Franklin you know using the same goals as he he he put it towards yourself but the thing is he he knew the limits that he had so he set this goal he said I I have to have a goal I will aim towards that and I think I can deal with those 12. maybe I know there are 50 or 100 but

ut the thing is he he knew the limits that he had so he set this goal he said I I have to have a goal I will aim towards that and I think I can deal with those 12. maybe I know there are 50 or 100 but I will start to small okay so let's start small um one day at a time right we start Smalling and Gathering motivation for from each day that we succeed and and of course um uh we um negativity will will come into place and that we will doubt our possibilities because also we we don't trust ourselves in the process right we have yeah you start going in in a direction that we will trust ourselves and not be disappointed when we fail yeah I think in one of the episodes we're talking about Thomas Anderson right okay are talking about failing personality but yes in a way because it was not just himself engaging into a discovery but it was his persistence which is a virtual per se if we are talking about it and understand that when we are born we are not a clean slate we we come from experience okay I know maybe some people do not have this um uh this belief that we were not just created when we were conceived but uh in terms of spirituality the majority of us we do understand that we we come from something this is not our beginning and it's absolutely not going to be our end and this is another thing that we will lead us towards of this uh work and self-improvement I I I moved away a little bit of what you asked no your right hand you went to to you went through um uh Abraham Abraham Abraham Lincoln is here with me today Benjamin Franklin right with the 13 virtuals and went back to the fact that uh uh from a spiritual and spirituality uh background and uh foundational to to what we're talking today uh which is the belief of Life After Life when we're born that's not the beginning when we die that's not the end and with that there is that's that sense of uh higher power right higher Mission higher purpose but if we stop that let's let's park that just that and talk a little

ing when we die that's not the end and with that there is that's that sense of uh higher power right higher Mission higher purpose but if we stop that let's let's park that just that and talk a little bit more about this notion because self-discovery a method uh really well it's it's lovely because it's so simple uh that uh Benjamin Franklin mentioned the 13 um the three 13 uh aspects to which to look at himself if you think about it right it's uh they are four times 13 weeks in the year so if you look at one step per week you end up revisiting yourself every let's say 120 days to no every 90 days right uh I believe every 90 days to to look into what uh what you've done and how that that you thought you have mastered in that week it not yet so what can we talk about it in the process of self-discovery we often look at another historical uh uh person that is amazing uh and uh it's Socrates right where he he gives us the sense of how important it is to go through again this journey of self-discovery of inner transformation and the journey for inner transformation um as as we top here it again it goes back to to having courage to look at yourself but also look at um with kindness right and uh uh understanding that if I want to pursue your set of 13 right if you want to pursue josada humility or if you want to pursue patience uh or whatever let's look at it it's not easy to come from being in perfect impatient in this case to being patient when we we start to to really deep dive all the nuances of that quality that you aim to achieve but I love the fact that uh he tried and he tried and he tried and at the end of his life somebody asked so hey you did that for the majority of your life uh Benjamin did you did you do it as well because being every one of the aspects that Benjamin Franklin list is in the starting virtues he it follows a statement or something that is like you know a personal remark on what do I really want to achieve with that because sometimes the playing word may be

n list is in the starting virtues he it follows a statement or something that is like you know a personal remark on what do I really want to achieve with that because sometimes the playing word may be deceiving and when he's talking about humility it's the the shortest description that he put in all of them just the following imitate Socrates and Jesus and I think it's so amazing because why imitate Socrates right because he is exactly the man that said what I know is that I know nothing right when questioned uh if he was the wisest man of his time and that Seer that all his his colleagues his scholar friends went to visit to ask who was the wisest among them and Socrates didn't wanted to you know to bother himself in in going with with them and the Sears as it's Socrates and they can't come all like you know very uh unhappy with the resultant told him well she said you are the wisest man in the whole world in the whole world and then he he thinks a little bit and says you know what I am and they were so surprised and he says well because Among Us I'm the only one that knows that I know nothing so this is the the the the example of humility and of course and when we talk about Jesus that didn't have anything apart the clothes that he was uh wearing right yeah so it's in all this process and like you mentioned Socrates as you know this phrase that is attributed to him but in fact it is there in the the Oracle that we find in Greece and that the know thyself the question we have to ask ourselves is we really know ourselves correct and I think this whole methodology is because with all the distractions that we have in life we see ourselves in one way that not necessarily represented reality I I have one thing that I I've been trying to do my whole life not that I managed to do that okay of course like many of us I have uh you know I have an opinion of myself of uh what I am what I do and I I I'm I'm I have embarked it in this journey of getting to know myself better

d to do that okay of course like many of us I have uh you know I have an opinion of myself of uh what I am what I do and I I I'm I'm I have embarked it in this journey of getting to know myself better sometimes it doesn't trig me when someone comes and say that I am or it comes with an adjective to describe me then I don't think I you know I am whether good or bad it doesn't matter tricks me and it becomes even more intriguing if more than one person comes and use the same thing the same adjective to to refer to me and I don't see myself like this um there there are two options here either I really am what this those people were saying and I I am not seeing that or I'm sending a message across that shows me in that way and the question is do I want to be seen that way or not so this process of you know like in this methodology that the main Franklin utilizes is very good because of the goal that he sets is very good because it's a small goal and uh and it's something that he does they this check daily so we we don't take the time anymore to look at our actions at our reactions how we position ourselves in the world how people are seeing us if this represent the reality or if I'm I'm really seeing myself the way I am this is why it's so hard but this is a longing from our being and not live in permanent disguise uh in in being completely oblivious to what we truly are that's why you know when we are talking with uh psychologists or the psychiatrists they are always talking about you know the shadow right all this Shadow is not the shadow because of the light that represents everything that is stored yeah yeah we are not paying attention yeah yeah we we don't even know how to pay attention right so I think it's it's we don't pay attention we don't know how to pay attention and um you mentioned something that I I read before I don't know if you have read it uh it's called Uh the joharis window it is a tool that actually in the profession setting it's a psychological

tion and um you mentioned something that I I read before I don't know if you have read it uh it's called Uh the joharis window it is a tool that actually in the profession setting it's a psychological tool but the professional settings in HR Human Resources use a lot and it talks I think you alluded that to before a the four quadrants of one's personality um the what uh I know and what everybody knows about me this is my public Persona quadrant number one quadrant number two is what I don't know about myself but everybody knows this is as you mentioned the um blind spot right I somehow am not able to understand to see but I think you said quite well you said then the question is if I am giving the feedback that hey you think you think that you're patient but this is the evidence oh contrary to believe you're really not patient at all and so that's your blind spot you thought yourself you're patient but you're not the third uh quadrant is which is um what Jung calls the mask right which is our hidden self meaning I know that I am impatient in this example by the I'm going to tell the world that I am patient right or maybe I am not generous at all but I'm gonna tell the world that I'm uh charitable generous etc etc and I go home and I'm counting my my you know coding beans if you will and the fourth and final quadrant is the Deep unconscious which is you are not aware and people around you are not aware about who you are but that is that deep what we talked before right that uh that the the the iceberg I talk about this because I'm thinking of this enormous Iceberg under the the ocean's water where you only see so little about who you are which is the your Consciousness right everybody else is uh everything else is under that so from that perspective we really see aspect of ourselves that regardless if it is a mask meaning that this is what I want you to think I am even though I'm not there yet right uh many people say fake it until you make it fake to be a good person until you're a good person

if it is a mask meaning that this is what I want you to think I am even though I'm not there yet right uh many people say fake it until you make it fake to be a good person until you're a good person um or that is my blind spot regardless of that this journey of self-awareness this pursuit of uh of reality this this notion that we have to be strongly biased toward sincerity toward authenticity will lead us to open that window if you will open our sense of self so that we contract or become larger of awareness of where we are in you know our potentialities love it thank you okay Marcia it's interesting that you mentioned about patients for many many years I thought myself to be a very impatient person well now if you ask me of course I'm impatient but not is not as bad as I I used to think uh and the point that I want to make here is that sometimes we are very um strict with ourselves yes right and then I one day I realized listen all the work that I do with you know preparing talks translating books and all of this it's it's a work of such a a work that requires so much patience right is is research is a lot of things that is that how come I've been you know whipping my my myself in the back saying you are too impatient you are too impatient and everything that you do shows the contrary and um and so I started becoming more lenient with me and see well of course I I am impatient but not in the sense that I used to think and and one of the things in this whole process of this pursuit of reality and and self-discovery is that it it does hurt to ourselves I mean I I I I came to this realization or I mean before that I thought uh that I was so impatient and how come I I was I used to to joke saying well you know what I I you believe in reincarnation but I think I never had to worry because those people are ambition I'm not I'm to say things like this and um and and and the thing is um it does hurt and one of the the the the the reasons I believe we it's so hard for us to Embark in this

those people are ambition I'm not I'm to say things like this and um and and and the thing is um it does hurt and one of the the the the the reasons I believe we it's so hard for us to Embark in this journey it's because we don't want to acknowledge um what we don't have and what you have that not necessarily goes along our ethical moral values and in order for us to not suffer not be be hurt by this realization we have ourselves we distract ourselves as we things yes yes with uh like I said know the truth and truthful sad you it will set a set you free I don't want to know my truth I will prefer to know what is happening in without any other people's lives checking Instagram all of those things that have to be with myself with my thoughts and this is uh but but but again we cannot flee from ourselves for so long yeah it's a it's again the The Duality that uh not that I mentioned but it comes back to us right we uh urgently want to be devoid of the truth about ourselves because we're afraid of looking ourselves in the mirror really looking ourselves in the mirror meaning not the made-up self but the unmasked you know uh all the wrinkles and all the flaws and all the uh you know it things that are beyond our surface and when we do that it will free us it will free us from holding on to that mask that illusion that we so desperately create and protect in the course of one's lifetime so it's it's antithetical we don't want people to know that I am I'm gonna put away another not patience but uh I don't want people to know that let's look for humility right it's a good one that I I I'm not I'm arrogant proudly proud for selfish person I don't want people to know I prefer them to I don't know canonize me as Saint Marcia I want people to know I am awesome that I am loved I am idolized in in those two realities there is a an abyss between them so the sense of once you have the courage to truly open that again that uh arrogant person that I am and look for why am I so arrogant let's say and how

two realities there is a an abyss between them so the sense of once you have the courage to truly open that again that uh arrogant person that I am and look for why am I so arrogant let's say and how can I still love myself I think you mentioned earlier we are a work in progress so if we are work in progress I should love the work that I am the status quo of who I am right now because I know that I'm trying right I know that I want to be better in in this this desire this effort this energy that I expand to become better I am better so uh something that I was saying earlier and I I I don't believe I I closed my thought the process was that at the end of his life when uh Benjamin Franklin was asked so Benjamin I've seen you you tried to to become a virtuous man right uh a better man did you and he says no oh so it was all in vain and he said those are my words but he says I'm a better man because of it because I tried and I think this is the the real lesson the real call to action for all of us let us try it will hurt it will display things that maybe we're not prepared to to to look about ourselves but let's be loving compassionate and forgiving because we're still a work in progress does this make sense to you sure absolutely and I was thinking about uh one example that Joanna DeAngelis gives and the the book self-discovery and uh good to make a remark here that mostly our conversation are based on hard works and we use our own words but it's basic based on the works of one of the Angel is that has been um giving us so many tools to understand us more from this psychological aspect putting together is spirituality and so she talks about the Greek tragedy of Sophocles I love it yeah husband talks about Oedipus right when he realized that that he had uh taken as as a spouse the the the wife of the ex-wife of his his uh his father and he didn't know that she she was her mother and so by coming to this uh you know realization he blinded himself and because he didn't wanted to he wanted to

of the ex-wife of his his uh his father and he didn't know that she she was her mother and so by coming to this uh you know realization he blinded himself and because he didn't wanted to he wanted to flee from reality and see how much you know Psychology was already Francis yes almost times we are talking before Common Era right uh when when they are already showing to us through those uh this uh writings the Greek tragedy so the archetypes and and this uh that we we try to do ourselves how can we flee from our conscience blinding will not do it right blinding is not the answer but it's a great myth for us to to to look at what you're just saying here that's awesome example yeah and it's beautiful when uh you know you're talking about Benjamin Franklin and his realization at the end of his life as well because it is the process right oh I mean all this journey and this is what makes it difficult we uh we are here we use it to this uh concept of you know the Build-A-Bear right um and uh when you see that they are ready you say oh my God it's so beautiful I wish I could I had one like this but you don't see all the process that it took for you to build this Bear right that's right made it so special and so we have to start savoring the the journey and understanding also that at all all these cars the scars of Life represents really Acquisitions and in terms of him saying okay I guess probably he could have said okay and maybe I got to the 13 verses but then now that I got to them I I mean I I'm seeing better and uh I know that there are more 26 to go at least for the moment and perhaps this is the reason why that in his Graves uh Stone he wrote uh there is it's written right here lies this body right this uh uh for um uh I don't remember exactly the coaching but he says that is here for the warms to consume but this old book that is here for the warmth to consume but we'll be back in a A Renewed better Edition right something I love it so in this sense is when instead of always focusing on the glass

sume but this old book that is here for the warmth to consume but we'll be back in a A Renewed better Edition right something I love it so in this sense is when instead of always focusing on the glass half empty we have to start seeing the glass half full so it's not so much about what I don't have as what I have already achieved and and and congratulating myself congratulating ourselves from what we have already achieved because otherwise it is going to be a very difficult Journey not impossible because this is the path that we are all are going to take sooner or later but it's going to be very difficult we may we're going to make it harder so a small victories are great right I mean and we have to to become aware of them our small blessings the thing is I want uh like you know if I uh we were Benjamin Franklin I would say okay hey I need to uh work on the starting virtues I'm already aware what I have to do tomorrow I'll wake up with the 13 verses already here as part of me no up in this way right it's it's a process and um and the most important thing is that when we get into that we will be naturally feeling better because like uh in this case even Benjamin Franklin said I at least I tried there there were times in our lives that we were not a real even concerned about it correct can I say something very personal we have just a couple of minutes but uh many many many years ago we talk about uh oh almost three decades ago I was uh invited to facilitate a three-year course or class on exactly this topic josada it was our inner transformation class which is just a a an environment for us to talk about topics like this really interesting and I remember when I was you know just chosen to do it and I looked at myself and I said I'm such a good person I don't need it's terrible to say I don't need to go through this I'm already there and in the process of actually facilitating therefore you have to lead by example you have to really focus on the concepts I found out oh my goodness

I don't need to go through this I'm already there and in the process of actually facilitating therefore you have to lead by example you have to really focus on the concepts I found out oh my goodness what what a completely unaware person I was I'm not a psychopath I'm not a cruel person I'm not and we can say all the things that I am not but there's so much more that I still have today so many years later to climb to visit revisit once again to look at all this uh inventory if you will this repository if you will of all the messages that my feelings my reactions to external events lead me to feel right why do I get angry when this happened why do I get sad when this happened how do I reconcile my my emotional response to things with who I am or like you mentioned before Hawaii want to be uh it's just that I love what you said right if you see me as something that I don't see myself I have a choice right either I see it's my my blind spot or is this what I am doing can I do something about it so this topic is everyone amazing I hope you uh were able to get as much interest and excitement as I have by talking to Jose today about uh a second part of our discussion on the pursuit of reality lots and lots of good reference books I hope you get to continue to read um please uh if you if you want go to to see Benjamin Franklin's um information it's easy to to read about his 13 virtues and his methodology and maybe it will inspire you to to start your own uh process of self-discovery just Sarah do you want to say a final thought before we say goodbye today sure there is even an app okay about eventually in front of 13 virtues yes I I would like to say that um you know when we talk about okay it's hard it's a process that thing and heart as well we have to be patients with ourselves there is one topic that's one of the Angelus mentions a lot in terms of love and self-love so she says that in all this uh the experience of Love is essential in this process of self-discovery because it only means

opic that's one of the Angelus mentions a lot in terms of love and self-love so she says that in all this uh the experience of Love is essential in this process of self-discovery because it only means that we are breaking the shell of the ego of primitivism that is still pretty dominant in our human nature so don't feel bad just uh just uh remember to be um uh so be a tolerant with yourselves and to fetch yourself in the back and say okay I'll I'll I'll go and see how many beautiful uh doors you will open before you with this attitude of Love of self-love as well so I'll we'll continue next week in our next episode and so I say bye to all of you and bye to you as well Marcia thank you so much for being with us in this episode thank you everyone thank you