Ep 26 - Psychology and Spirituality | Forgetfulness of the Past

foreign welcome to this psychology and spirituality a bridge to a better life discussion I'm your host Marcia Georgiana and here with me is my co-host josara korngode who is the Secretary General of the international spiritus Council and former president and current Vice President of the United States spiritus Federation thank you for joining us today today this episode is going to focus on aspects of forgiveness aspects of forgetfulness and we have a really interesting discussion right just to talk about those Topics in in in in ways that they can be quite broad or quite quite precise to to your thoughts about to this but if you are interested in learning more about what we do please go to www.spiritest.us for more information and please note that this program psychology and spirituality is sponsored by Ami Brazil um the United States spiritus Federation the TV monsal de Camino and the international spiritus Council if you have any questions we invite you to please type them put your feedback your thoughts in the chat window uh if you don't have time today we'll come back to them at a later episode also take a moment to hit subscribe if you haven't already done so but with that I want to say uh hello so good to see you and uh it's so good to have you back this week where we talk about these topics right and I'm talking about plural forgiveness and forgetfulness but um how how about we start talking just Adam absolutely so blessing for me first give it to you Marcia you know so everyone it's uh really um a joy moment when we can share those you know those thoughts and reflections with all of you and the subject today I think it's so pertinent to all of us uh in so many aspects not only on our personal life but of course in professional life and and any any kind of a relationship that we have because it means that somehow we have to accept understand and forgive um everyone's um wrong actions in in a way because we are all doing the same things we are not none of us are perfect and we all are

ause it means that somehow we have to accept understand and forgive um everyone's um wrong actions in in a way because we are all doing the same things we are not none of us are perfect and we all are committing mistakes and in terms of uh forgiveness I think um that's one of the actually says because we are going to base our study today on this book wake up and be happy from the uh the psychological series of Joanna de angelis um psychographed by a divado Pereira Franco and published by the out publisher we are going to focus on chapter 19 verse one of the answers comes and talks exactly about that about the need to forgive the need to forget and how this can actually contribute for our mental balance so here in this episode and in this program actually a podcast that we are talking about psychology and spirituality the psychology aspect of all of this is how this impacts our mental health how can this bring um Harmony to us and in a way of course is going to help us to have a happier life because when I'm not holding grudges when I'm not just giving myself to resentment or or even when I'm not expecting Perfection from others Perfection that I myself am not able to to give right because I don't have it and and from what we know it's going to be a while until we reach that stage so this is basically what we are going to be discussing now I don't know if Marcia would like to say something before you continue yes I I would like to just bring as a thought and this is really um I would say almost like Pollyanna that everything is beautiful everything is good but I'm gonna say it anyways I just wanted to to say that whenever we practice this very idealized thing that is called love which is a byproduct of forgiving and forgetting right it's this love when we practice that in everything we do we're we're able to to Really exercise to say live better live uh in a in a much more Balanced Life and I would just say josada if if I imagine my I don't know my day today right if I think

hing we do we're we're able to to Really exercise to say live better live uh in a in a much more Balanced Life and I would just say josada if if I imagine my I don't know my day today right if I think of everything that I do and I I love the the expression right that if we think and speak with love right it's not just an idea but we start to to become very practical and Technical in doing in being love so we we speak we think with love we are then predisposed to be kind to understand to understand those are called our advert adversaries our opponents our enemies right so this is the the platform the the the the way the jumping ground for us to really get to be better not only with ourselves but all of those around us I that's just the thought that I thought but anyways go ahead and let's talk about uh the topic I was thinking that before we start just to not to have any kind of a misunderstanding uh because when we were talking about forgiving and forgiving everyone and forgiving the actions we do understand that uh we are not there yet and um I would like to bring uh to the discussion as well the teachings from Jesus that when he said love one another and then he said love your enemies and when we when we are talking about loving one another learning to love one another because this is the way that we will be you know showing our progress our spiritual progress when we study um and we go deeper in the statement of loving one enemies in The Gospel According to spiritus it's very clear insane um of course you're not going to love than the same way that we you love uh Your Love at ones right uh but at least try not to wish them badge so this this is the case of sometimes you know we know that there are certain things that will be very difficult for for every one of us uh to forgive certain actions that human beings are capable of doing that not only we are not going to forgive but we are not going to forget at the moment so please I I just would uh I wanted to clarify that not because as you were

at human beings are capable of doing that not only we are not going to forgive but we are not going to forget at the moment so please I I just would uh I wanted to clarify that not because as you were saying you know being in the world of fantasy or poliana just thinking oh I have to love everyone no we will have difficulties in in our relationships that we will always be that person I mean you're you're lucky if you just have one right in your way that you say oh my God that is that person you know it it always um uh you know show me my my evil side so to say my negative side because it's when you feel that you still Harbor um negative emotions right so I I just wanted to to clarify before we we continue with the topic and I would like to start by by reading the first paragraph here from the one of the Angeles when she says people who have being hurt or have suffered often say it is not difficult for me to forgive however it would be nearly possible for me to forget so all in that statement it leads us to reflect about the words about the meaning of those words what it is forgive to forgive it is really to remove any negative sentiments from from your heart but we cannot remove from our minds experiences that we are we we have lived but in a way the difference here is although we will never forget or at least while we are in our good ages right we are not going to forget anything we um it doesn't mean that we are going to pay that much attention or give too much value to that okay it was something bad a bad experience that you had in your past but you're not going to stay there because it's important for us to live in the moment and not let the past take over our day-to-day lives so this is the difference here no one is required to forget and to pretend that I I don't even remember that of course we do but then the forgiveness is a different thing forgiveness is actually us making an effort to understand uh human beings human circumstances and uh even especially the

ven remember that of course we do but then the forgiveness is a different thing forgiveness is actually us making an effort to understand uh human beings human circumstances and uh even especially the need that we have to remove those negative traits from ourselves there is also something uh because it's such a a very insightful and at the same time very very true very real very day-to-day real right we all go through this and uh like Joanna and you mentioned here oh oh oh I forgive I can forgive so and so I will never forget and she's saying it's okay not to forget right but how do you go back to a point that I I call it perhaps equilibrium a point where you go back to the original state before whatever led to the sense of discomfort of hurt or or a sense of betrayal whatever that may be so uh the thought that I that came to my mind as we're speaking was the fact that uh in addition in addition to living in a quite complex world because we we live in a densely populated world right our ecosystem if you will of individuals that come to us and and and and hurt us even when they don't mean to I think you mentioned that already but uh Joanna mentioned something that I love to to perhaps uh bring it up as an added wrinkle to this conversation in addition to the two people right the two people that one hurts and the other gets hurt there's also an idea behind all of this that Joanna calls the um the archetypical inheritances big words right archetypical inheritance what we Society at large are inherited and this becomes part of our unconscious and even without knowing right consciously knowing something becomes part of my belief system and I act upon it and that may be the source of heart to the other simple simple example uh let's say a family with uh two boys to girls and because of perhaps that the inheritance of a patriarchal society still exists and and impacts that family there is preferential perhaps treatment for the boys versus the girls and that hurts that spirit that person that the

the inheritance of a patriarchal society still exists and and impacts that family there is preferential perhaps treatment for the boys versus the girls and that hurts that spirit that person that the psychological well-being of that person who's the girl and the mom and the dad they have no clue that they're hurting so it's just a simple but it's just a wrinkle right to just how to uh beyond the fact that uh how to forgive how to forget how to become able to love again there is the sense of once you are we all are aware of all this underneath the surface and we're able to be more mature psychological speaking to better understand the actions of the other it it frees us to become better and more able perhaps to to deal with all those inputs outputs from individuals what do you think yeah I think it's right right is um we're talking about behaviors and beliefs all right and that so this set of beliefs that we receive that perhaps you know one ethnicity is better than than other why right or uh because you are in a certain position you you you you are smarter than another person or because uh you know you um you are let's say um someone that works in a home like a house cleaning and then she replies to you to say something to you and do you think it's unforgivable because they are not in the position of even talking to you all those things that we we learn right we and thank God we are getting rid of all the all of this habits are changing uh and um of course it's easier for us first to work on the surface like like for instance now most of the places at least here in the US you you cannot smoke inside right but before it was something that no one would condemn and now of course if you do that you are going to be invited to to live but everyone will will look at you with you know a different view which is excellent It's a progress but but those values we are changing because you know they are all outwards changed but we what we have to choose to think about is about

h you know a different view which is excellent It's a progress but but those values we are changing because you know they are all outwards changed but we what we have to choose to think about is about um the the inward how am I going to change in my um line of thinking the set of knowledge that we have received or you mentioned you know the way of you know raising children as well and how this uh impact uh in our Judgment of people as well but it's interesting because then Joanna de Anjali says if we do not entirely forget the offense there is no real forgiveness okay right now uh she's asking us to go an extra step uh but the forget here like when we were talking about before is not to go to a brainwash or hypnotic hypnosis session to remove this memory from my mind from my brain right it's really that it becomes so unimportant that is almost like really we we we forget because it's it's no longer important uh right uh you know sometimes uh I see um especially when my child my son was younger and you know there was a certain kind of competition on you know how early your child learned how to read and write or you know uh to do this or that at the end everyone is going to learn right how to read and write and uh after one point whether you struggled more or or less it's going to become completely unimportant because everyone will get in the same way you'll get in the you know the same uh this the same result that is you know learning how to read and write yeah I would even add another example with children because you said at some point it becomes unimportant in your case so your example was the result right the result the outcome is what's important not the process or we don't have key performance indicators for raising our children right or being kind we we we we we don't work like that but the other thing that came to my mind was uh similarly on in a different way yet is when a child comes to you and says I hate you and we're talking about three or four-year-old

don't work like that but the other thing that came to my mind was uh similarly on in a different way yet is when a child comes to you and says I hate you and we're talking about three or four-year-old mother I hate you you're so mean and you look and you're the mature one and you let it be right it's unimportant that expression of anger frustration etc etc of a child because the child is just a child so I think that's also good for us to see when do we become really spiritually mature emotionally mature psychologically mature we start to see things that perhaps previously would bother us and at some point you just go okay whatever let's move on right and you see in a way it doesn't make sense because uh for us to to keep those memories or to keep on feeding them because they require uh an enormous amount of emotional energy on our part there is a book uh by uh let me look at here oops um sorry Olivier Clerk and his the book is called the gift of forgiveness and it it portrays a magical encounter that he had with him Don Miguel Ruiz and here he uh asks the questions how many times we have to pay for one mistake and this is one thing uh that we have to think about and he says that the answer is a thousand times because humans are the only animals on Earth who pay a thousand times for the same mistake because every time we remember we judge again we whether we are the the you know the property traitor or if you have received you know someone that had hurt you uh we we are going to to to bring those emotions alive again we will be punishing the person we will be punishing ourselves and uh sometimes this happens a lot in the family relationship every time we bring oh but remember when you did that to me and so it is not fair it is not fair to not only not to forgive but especially to keep on bringing the same emotion every time is like you just have done that or have suffered that so uh I I think it's important for us to to think about it and and how much we are um you know harming ourselves in this way

me emotion every time is like you just have done that or have suffered that so uh I I think it's important for us to to think about it and and how much we are um you know harming ourselves in this way and there are so many scientific studies because today forgiveness is no longer just a matter of a religious spiritual thinking it's what you know um they do in Psychology in the medical field and and so they can see the efficacy of in terms of General Health in in emotional balance of people who were you know holding on to grudges before and now they are reading themselves of this so we have uh the doctor the package shop for for instance that talks a lot about the Forgiveness as a personal healing a powerful tool for personal healing and spiritual transformation he it has books that talks about you know his practicing his steps because as everything in our lives we just don't change overnight and we need help uh but of course the first thing that we have to do is to have an open mind at least choose to to search for uh you know materials that can Inspire Us in going in this track and I I think that it's very meaningful Joanna de Angela is putting this chapter on this book wake up and be happy right I mean it's not just a simple title and all the chapters that we have here but this is like you know pay attention to what you're doing to you you really wanted to be happy we really want to be in peace so it's time to wake up it's time to you know be mindful of what you are thinking uh of you know those uncontrolled emotions that you that we have right and uh so it's really uh an invitation to Awakening I love it I love it one thing that I was going to ask you just said maybe you can speak to it about it but what does it take in general to be able to forgive you mentioned understanding are there other steps for really becoming able to to forgive that uh the other person mm-hmm but we have here from uh Dr uh Worthington his uh PhD professor of psychology at the Virginia Commonwealth

are there other steps for really becoming able to to forgive that uh the other person mm-hmm but we have here from uh Dr uh Worthington his uh PhD professor of psychology at the Virginia Commonwealth University that he he he has several uh actually books uh written in relation to this topic and one of them is five steps to forgiveness and he calls those five steps uh the rich process because he uses the r-e-a-c-h words as uh you know the the beginning of the explanation for for the steps that it's just one way of doing it so one thing that he so he starts by saying recall the heart okay we have to think and to be clear to have it clear in our mind what what happened right then is when once we recall the heart exactly what happened we are going to put our poses ourselves in a position of empathizing with the one that has hurt us is when we start thinking why did this person did behave like this and in relation to me um was just out of nowhere or maybe the person was going through a very Discord deal or maybe the person is not in a in an enlightened position or like you said Mario when you are talking about the children you know we are the adults is spiritually speaking this person you still do not have this possibility then he comes to the third point which is altruistic gift which means offer the altruistic gift of forgiveness because when we start reasoning about that recalling the herd empathizing we can go to this third step thinking why can I not be be the big person bigger persons in this case or why can I not um you know forget this person just out of goodness of just out of uh altruistic Behavior but then we can reach this point but uh the fourth step is kind of hard because we have to commit to that it's just not enough for us to go through the process of reasoning to the process of empathizing in the process of I'll say oh I'm going to be you know the better one in this case I'm not going to to think about it anymore uh we have to commit and then the fifth step which is

ocess of empathizing in the process of I'll say oh I'm going to be you know the better one in this case I'm not going to to think about it anymore uh we have to commit and then the fifth step which is a kind of similar he says he says you have to hold on to that so there there has to be a commitment and we have to keep on you know holding on this commitment all those steps of course it's going to require from us an emotional charge of energy you know uh because um it's not easy we will have to deal uh with our ego but every time we can tame our ego it could be an exercise this could be an exercise there are sometimes so little things that we we hold grudges start with the little things it starts with the the listing port and ones you know don't go to the extremes without you know first practicing a little bit and and I think that um once we do that we will see how much more liberated we are and we are going to be giving you know rule for the self to appear right sorry I was on mute yeah absolutely and I think the the words that resonate to to with me uh from us are uh awareness or understanding that that the process of um Having the courage to recall right recall the actual hurt and as difficult as it is just that stab but moving to now I have to commit I have to empathize I have to understand and I have to to hold on because it's easy to go back right I I have to tell you I was out a couple of weeks ago out of the country and uh oh my goodness I had an audience with somebody who witnessed a great heart that I went through and jasara I swear I swear I thought I had overcome I thought I had forgiven and I thought I had forgotten okay so this is one the other person was somebody uh innocent person that didn't know anyone involved so she was just curious tell me this narrative this story and then a third person who was a bystander to the whole process and that's the glitch because I'm there and I'm talking and of course my ego is inflated I was hurt and I just got on and on in

s story and then a third person who was a bystander to the whole process and that's the glitch because I'm there and I'm talking and of course my ego is inflated I was hurt and I just got on and on in the best storytelling possible Manner and I'm just you know really talking about the the victimization that I was going and I was able to overcome and the the other bystander goes in and she says uh well uh actually you really did not do that because blah blah blah blah blah and if it were me you you know I would have done and it would completely stop this whole story and all of it came back alive I started to cry I started to just go relive like you mentioned that moment of hurt all over again and I know it is all about my ego that was hurt and I was put in a position to to have to be the the bigger person it took me years and forgive and forget but I hadn't really forgotten it was clearly uh uh available just two weeks ago so today's conversation is awesome because I can tell you for with my my my my own experience even when we believe we have overcome we need to go back and recall like you said and be committed and hold on to our decision to forgive and forget yeah and the idea here like we've said before according to the teaching of Jesus you know love your enemies it doesn't mean to make them you know necessarily your best friend it can happen but not necessarily that you know it will require a process until there is uh trust in each other so we are not oblivious to that but it's interesting because one of the usually says here uh to forget Unfortunate Events is a valuable victory of the spirit over itself overcoming the law or the impositions of the ego and enabling the development of higher aptitudes inherence to all human beings so again she's talking exactly what you were saying right I mean uh when we are um going through that this process we are really um overcoming like she says here the impositions of the ego so whenever we are capable of doing that we are giving room for a better a better

en we are um going through that this process we are really um overcoming like she says here the impositions of the ego so whenever we are capable of doing that we are giving room for a better a better self to rise right so this is I I think is is a very important in all of this topic because uh when we are talking here like you know this harmony this mental balance it has everything to do with this process and the the worth not the worst but a bad thing that we can we do as well and um of course you know in other episodes we can talk more about uh guilt for instance I I think you already did one of those but we can go back there is the this the process of self-forgiveness as well when I'm not open to forgiving others in many cases we are not open to forgive ourselves as well uh it's like on the back of our minds we say if I forgive that person I can't I have to forgive myself as well because of a similar Behavior but we are not ready to move on because sometimes we like to be or our ego wants to maintain Us in this victimized position so there is an enormous gain in trying to practice the forgiveness in relation to others especially when we are thinking about ourselves so when the Dr Worthington from for instance talks about the Second Step empathize right it's the same thing that we have to do with ourselves so when we are um thinking about uh our errors uh right or wrong doings or you know bad choices we uh we we will have to go through stages as well first just come I mean guilt then remorse then repentance then self-acceptance and then A Renewed Behavior because again is not uh advisable for us just to stay on the awareness right uh when we are aware that something is not good of certain behaviors should not be repeated then we have to be active right and you know have a commitment hold on to this commitment of not doing the same things again so I I uh every time I think about this topic uh it gives me great relief because it's not that I'm going to be happy because other people are not

to this commitment of not doing the same things again so I I uh every time I think about this topic uh it gives me great relief because it's not that I'm going to be happy because other people are not perfect but it's it's a relief to know that I I myself are in the same category right I I want to be better I'm trying to be better but if I I'm still not perfect and of course there will be you know Miss uh uh misguided actions and all of this that we are going to do it sometimes even in our ways of uh Notch paying attention uh even yesterday I was watching an episode on a TV uh of one of the the series that I like to watch and they were talking about um a man that um talked to his his colleagues that he he was gay and uh he had been held this information for quite a long time and then um the the employer being part of that conversation and all the other saying I don't care you know I mean we don't care why did you you know think that you had to hold this information for for so long and then the employee said no we don't we don't have to say I don't care we have to say I care I care for everything that you're going through I care because you know you have to hold off on this information thinking that you are going to be we were going to be judged at Ikea because uh you know I I I I want to be there to give you support in in each and every step of your way so I I I I like that so much because it's not a matter of I don't care it's a matter of caring of caring for a mother for others and caring for ourselves I know exactly what you're talking about I know the series I know the episode and I have to tell you uh throughout this conversation I thought about a different episode a different episode and I'm gonna try to because I I I haven't formulated my mind but let's let me try to to convey to you what uh it was is quite impactful right so the story goes that uh this this man uh was wronged by his dad his dad abandoned him his dad antagonized him he's dead publicly humiliated him

convey to you what uh it was is quite impactful right so the story goes that uh this this man uh was wronged by his dad his dad abandoned him his dad antagonized him he's dead publicly humiliated him throughout he's an adult and he learned to live life despite his dad so the anger which is one of the basic emotions right the anger toward being hurt and being a victim of who should be somebody to protect him was actually feeling him to be everything that he was today in terms of success well long story goes he's going through in the series a a process of inner transformation and forgiveness it's really interesting right and and at the critical moment where he needed to prove all his goodness in terms of uh uh how he executes upon material life he lost he lost because he forgave he had nothing and he had this emptiness and it's very compelling the story how do you deal with that when perhaps a thirst for and I'm not talking about this character but for us if we are living a life where revenge or anger or that conflict that may be buried inside of you may be very aware and once we go through what we need to go through uh Dr Worthington thank you I'm going to use the reach process to become better and then you face yourself with the notion of emptiness and I have to tell you without spoiling when you watch that episode the fact that within a critical critical critical moment minutes the the clock ticking and he needs to to do something uh this young man is confronted with the notion that he has somehow forgotten but not truly forgiving so it's the flip of what we're saying here and and then he says go right now and and forgive him and in the moment that he is able to this is of course fiction right the moment that he's forgiven mentally his dad it's almost like the world opens up and the energy because you mentioned that before the energy that he needed to to really trigger all his potentiality just flowed and he was able to to be the best of he was that previously was filled by anger

energy because you mentioned that before the energy that he needed to to really trigger all his potentiality just flowed and he was able to to be the best of he was that previously was filled by anger but now was revealed by love so it's just a very beautiful almost mythological way of talking about forgiving and forgetting right uh and I'm glad that we're watching the same series together it's interesting because of course you know even when we are talking about the TV uh there are always different levels of watching a show right I do like that I always try to watch it you know thinking about the human beings the behavior yeah yeah you know we know that there is no story that has hasn't that hasn't happened in real life you know and there are so yeah but I I I I just would like to emphasize how um incredible is though this work of Dr Worthington because he uh he starts exactly with what we were saying recalled the heart yeah so if we just try to Bear it within us thinking that oh you know we have I have dealt with that all right uh we don't go through the other processes and and later on it is going to appear and and sometimes uh it's going to appear in a critical moment of your life when you really need to be in balance in full control and then all of a sudden everything comes to surface yeah so I'd like to add here as you said I know we're coming to an end of our today's conversation but um it's it's really key what you just said number one it this is getting hurt is mostly a product of our egos being hurt that the image that we create to meet the demands of the world and we we create with a lot of effort and we maintain with a lot of effort right so when that image a projection of ourselves our psyche is in danger is threatened then you you get hurt so what happens our mechanism of defenses start to to formulate and they're there to protect our ego they're there to protect this image right let's let's defend and uh this this the structure of my conscience but one of the things that you just

rt to to formulate and they're there to protect our ego they're there to protect this image right let's let's defend and uh this this the structure of my conscience but one of the things that you just mentioned which is the mechanism of repression repressing whatever that is right to bury it in in an unconscious will if not addressed will surface it will surface in the form of emotional or psychological mental diseases or physical as it's somatized in our bodies so I think the the big message from my perspective of our conversation today is Let's Be Brave right it's it's not for the weak of heart right let's be brave and face everything that has happened to our lives as we go through maybe we can create a mechanism for recalls or for reflecting or for meditating upon a period of your time or um relationships Etc and let's be brave enough to see how did I feel how did I react what was this conflict really threatening is it someone is it my ego is it a position is it a belief etc etc so I think this is really an amazing opportunity for us to to perhaps read read wake up and be happy read the the book and I forgot the title already but by Dr Worthington and let's see if next time we talk about this topic you are here with us watching us again and you're able to perhaps give us some feedback on how you are dealing with uh this topic yourself just Sarah before we close do you have any final comments well the name of the book is five steps to forgiveness and uh I I I think you summarize it so well Martha because uh we uh we have to be brave and I I the the first half has to be acknowledging that that we we still have this emotional burden within ourselves uh so it's like you know make an intervention you're in your in yourself and acknowledge that you have a problem or if one person with a situation uh because this is the only way that you know when we we go face to face with the problem that we can actually deal with that and it's not with a name just to bring all the you know the the emotions

n uh because this is the only way that you know when we we go face to face with the problem that we can actually deal with that and it's not with a name just to bring all the you know the the emotions back to surface again is tight you start um you know rethinking about everything that happened I could describe it okay you you told your beautiful not beautiful but let's say your story your side of you know your your point of view in relation to that and um but but really to be able to acknowledging that yeah we do have that uh and we are in the process of self-healing so yeah yeah absolutely all right everyone we have come to the end of our discussion today I hope I can see you next week uh when we meet again to discuss psychology and spirituality thank you josada for being here with me thank you all of you who were who were able to to join us via this Channel and I look forward to continue this conversation bye-bye