Ep 164 - Conversations about Grief, Loss, Love, and Inner Awakening

Hello everyone. Welcome back to the psychology and spirituality weekly talk. This podcast which is uh a podcast about the works of Joanna D'Angelus so that we can get to a better life. Those are series of talks and today we begin with uh something that I I feel it is quite and deeply human and in my own words deeply sacred as well. Right? We are today beginning a series of talks on grief. Now um not grief just from a clinical category or even as a sense of something that we suffer. We're vulnerable. Therefore, it is a oh how can I say weakness within us but grief is something not even to that we need to go as fast as we can and move beyond that. But it is about grief as this prisma. So with that, I'm going to not going to spoil because I have Josa Korn Goat, the co-founder and co-host here with me and we're going to explore this theme and explore the next few talks about the same. How you doing, Jos? >> Oh, hello Marcia. Hi everyone. I've been doing okay. Still dealing with the winter time here in New York. Other than that, we're just great. Very good. And just we're we're talking about this idea of grief as a prisb, right? Can you talk a little bit about it? What do we mean by that? >> Yeah. For starters, Marcia, I think that um you know the reason why for everyone to know we are starting this series is that um whether by a coincidence or not uh or because sometimes you know we just focus on some more particular topics that are happening not only to us and friends but that are happening in the world. We focus our attention on the the pain, the grief, the loss that everyone is experiencing in one aspect or the other. Mhm. >> And um and it it it's a very important I think and interesting journey for all of us in particular because is it it is this way where we start looking at the other and seeing you know um the reality and the reality of life that for everyone and the the burdens and and obstacles hurdles that everyone has to go through that we are also going to develop a very noble

nd seeing you know um the reality and the reality of life that for everyone and the the burdens and and obstacles hurdles that everyone has to go through that we are also going to develop a very noble virtue which is compassion >> and to lead us to what we normally uh or everyone wants so much which is peace on earth. When I have compassion for others, >> when I understand from where you know the pain, the reactions, the behaviors that we see of people in the world that they they come from something that is a root behind that. Uh just as an example, yesterday I was watching something on the TV and um it was it's it's one of you know those medical series and uh >> uh there is this uh this man that keeps on going to the ER and uh his problem is that he is an alcoholic and um and you know they finally they and He's an an absolutely adorable person and all of a sudden you know as a consequence he winds up dying and they have this um you know this uh uh they are used it there in this er particular that they're showing to to send a moment of reflection in relation to the person and then one of the doctors and one one of the doctors found in his pocket a picture of what was supposed to be a wife and she was pregnant and then said, "Well, he has been coming here for so long. We never knew he was married or had had a child. Does anyone know about it?" And then it's when one of the doctors says, you know, yeah, he he had this wife and she was pregnant and then in a hit and run, he lost the wife and the and and the child. And now you know you see all their faces being filled with regret because they were only judging the outside. They were only looking at an alcoholic not knowing what led that man to that desperate stage. And so you know when we are talking about this griefing and everything in the world and when is when we start seeing and that's the the image that came the image of the pris that all of a sudden we try to uh uh categorize things to put things under a certain

d everything in the world and when is when we start seeing and that's the the image that came the image of the pris that all of a sudden we try to uh uh categorize things to put things under a certain category and they are so much more than that and uh none of those you know the the the different colors of the prism that they are wrong because at the same time they come from just a single source >> the source of life that we represent. But we have you know all this spectrum and we we we when we we say prism here of course all of you are you know perhaps immediately visualizing a rainbow right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And uh but there are so many more colors you know colors that our physical human eyes can not yet see but they are there according to science as well. And so it is from this perspective that we want to analyze what is this you know grief and loss in the in everyone's life and everyone's you know different stages of life. >> Yeah. I love what you said by the way on the from a color theory right uh it's no longer primary colors uh yellow red and blue becoming uh a secondary tertiary in than the rainbow as we can see seven colors it's really much much more color theory there is a multitude and we we always remember about punton right the combination of each color that makes a color exactly as we need. And that's a a a great idea to see. We are a speck within that huge spectrum of colors. This is just this one point today in the moment of our pain. Right, Josara? And and I think when you when you mention um the different uh aspects of the struggle in the case of uh uh the TV series that you're talking about where he the man was categorized an alcoholic and all sorts of judgment about his choices etc etc. But beyond choices, beyond the actual um lack of moderation in ingesting alcoholic beverages led to a lot of negative impacts to his body. Therefore, ER but below the surface there's so much pain and the grief that probably he could not really go through with the loss of a a

coholic beverages led to a lot of negative impacts to his body. Therefore, ER but below the surface there's so much pain and the grief that probably he could not really go through with the loss of a a wife, right? and in and a child in that case. So I I think >> is why I think we are bringing this series about in the sense of uh >> you know being brave enough to recognize that we go through things that are very traumatic in our lives. >> Yeah. But still we need ourselves to be able to address that to understand the normaly of that >> and the responsibility that each one of us have in relation to other people because there could be people that could have helped him more in a sense to be uh to you know to behind perhaps perhaps this aggressiveness, the hurt and everything to be able to to to stay there, to stay longer and uh and to do something. So, it's not just an invitation for personal growth, >> for us to be able to deal with uh you know, whatever life brings to us. And uh here I thought about something very simple like you know if life gives you lemon you always have the possibility of making it a lemonade. >> Maybe you will not be able to do that alone. You you need someone to bring water and sugar. >> And this is what life in society means. We need each other. We need each other >> especially when you are going through those difficult waters of life. >> Yeah. And and I think um in a way as you're talking about I love the example of the lemonade. Let let us all make lemonade when we get lemons right lemons toward us to to to our daytoday or whatever. But uh what I what I'm thinking here is also that we all cope our coping mechanism to deal with what we could call pain right Josada it is grief it is loss but there's a moment of suffering and pain in this process and how we deal with that whatever the source may be differs from person to person the mechanisms are inherent certainly different based on your I don't know your gender, age, nationality, creed, etc., etc. We we

eal with that whatever the source may be differs from person to person the mechanisms are inherent certainly different based on your I don't know your gender, age, nationality, creed, etc., etc. We we tend to choose this tool versus another. But the first and most important aspect of it all is to become aware that the the pain is real, but it is to be expected >> when we certain things. And uh when there is the level I think you use the word of the normacy of the moment right when we confront with the normacy of the moment let us be brave enough to to to to to confront even the confrontation means just hold my hand and walk with me so that I'm able to look face to face with um with whatever river is so terrifying at this moment. >> And sometimes, you know, there are just too many lemons, you know, >> not deal with squeezing all of them and squeezing all of them at once. And and so here we are not here to to say, oh, or or or for you for people that are listening to us to think that we are taking for granted their pain. We feel pain as well and alone >> but it is to to in a way to say listen first of all you're not alone >> and there is a very beautiful Buddhist story about that it's that that uh one day uh a woman with her her baby in her lap that has just died she goes after she she seeks one of those um uh Buddhist priests to to you know for help and because she's going from house to house looking for a medicine to make her son or daughter the story doesn't say to to revive again and finally when she goes to him he said well I I have a medicine for that um I just need uh one grain of mustard but uh you have to get this one grain of mustard from a house that has never experienced loss. And so this is, you know, the story. She goes to so many houses and everyone has experienced loss. And uh and so here is not to say, oh, just cope with that because this is part of the world. But but but I mean you start seeing with compassion and without understanding and we not without uh you know just going in

ere is not to say, oh, just cope with that because this is part of the world. But but but I mean you start seeing with compassion and without understanding and we not without uh you know just going in a rebellious way because uh another facet that we have in relation to the prison that everything is accepted is you know that sometimes we are going to be angry or have fear or nostalgia or feel guilt or >> sometimes relief and um grat itude because sometimes you know if we are talking about loss through death, grief because of death uh because that person was suffering too much from a you know an illness or or something and so in our our hearts we are going to feel grateful that the pain is over. So there are many different aspects and and the thing is u if this is inevitable like very much the the topic that we are talking about it is inevitable. I know people do not like to talk about it. Um you know when we you you go and research what is the the the most extreme fear humankind has is of course is the fear of death but not only the >> death process per se but the oblivion >> uh the unknown and this is where you know spirituality all the the the teachings the knowledge that we gather from Zana the anggeles from spiritist from cardc and so many others you know uh is so important because uh also we are inviting our listeners to go into a different perspective >> uh the momentary loss of a person doesn't mean losing that person forever but in a sense here we are not only talking about death we are talking about every griefing pro uh pro process that go through to so many others because of so many other different aspects of life. Something that perhaps for one of you that are listening, you would not even considering uh a topic to think about or much less to, you know, to worry or to be feeling grief about. But to others, everyone of of us is different. We have different values with every different right. Yeah. Yeah. And and what comes to my mind um when in this you know this

r to be feeling grief about. But to others, everyone of of us is different. We have different values with every different right. Yeah. Yeah. And and what comes to my mind um when in this you know this this beautiful tapestry if you will of different colors and different emotions, different types of losses and and grieving differently. Um what comes to my mind is again uh the fact that we're all in pain as you mentioned Josada and we're all equally grieving for some sort of loss and this is very interesting because it uh if you were to to think about it right they uh this grieving process may be not visible to everyone, but it's felt. And um and uh it is how we start to to mature, to learn how to deal with loss differently, to reveal our loss, our uh grieving due to loss, right? Through a different mechanism. And you mentioned already with gratitude, with love, with um I I I would even say perhaps with tenderness, right, in and compassion. Absolutely. How do you look at all these feelings that we may be going through and um and that is shared by society at large. Which means if we are 8 plus billion people living today in the planet, there are 8 plus billion shades or colors of grief. Right? So let's think about with that uh sense of perhaps fragmentation and I'm I'm using the word fragmentation because I'm thinking of the the white light that goes through a prism and fragments into so many others. But it's a way to reveal all that emotional landscape that we are undergoing and whatever it is I don't know Josara uh let's say vulnerability because my childhood is no longer or or that intensity of adolescence that we look at it with nostalgia perhaps right where did my fearlessness go now that I'm no longer that or uh my my choosing um in the crossroads of adulthood perhaps or even uh the beauty of coming to a place closer perhaps to that inner peace that you talked about Josada with that integration of all of our life choices that comes with maturity and we talk maturity as we perhaps go beyond

coming to a place closer perhaps to that inner peace that you talked about Josada with that integration of all of our life choices that comes with maturity and we talk maturity as we perhaps go beyond that faded midlife crisis and start to look at different avenues for our um our old age. So it's all about losses that are visible but losses that are neither visible or even that speak they're quite silent right like uh yeah >> I don't know health identity beauty status dreams faith even what are your thoughts >> and it's also a matter of perspective right this is what we are uh we really wanted to talk about here because you know >> uh we can see in the face of a child saying I I cannot wait until you know I'm I'm 18 or 21 right and then we can see in the the face of someone that is in the 40s or 50 say oh you know you don't know how great it is to be a child or you know we can see uh someone that is just recently married and uh and others where is going to be envying them because oh look envying in a a good way okay see I wish that for me as well and they are thinking oh my god now I'm married >> what have I done >> I lost my my my freedom >> yes you know all the things that come >> it is perspective yeah >> perspectives of life or you know so this is what we have to see and this Why I think one of the words that we said at the beginning sorry about compassion >> have compassion with yourself but you know compassion in the world as well in the sense of understanding that because of the different experiences everyone will see life in a different perspective. >> Yes. Yes. I have I have while you drink a sip of water. uh Josada I I just came to when you said about the perspective right the child wanting to be uh 18 or those that are becoming married etc etc but one little moment that happened in my life uh and it was such a brief moment but it was quite quite enlightening was when my dad turned 90 right and he ever expected to hit 80, let alone 90, right? Or even 100, he he surpassed that milestone by a

and it was such a brief moment but it was quite quite enlightening was when my dad turned 90 right and he ever expected to hit 80, let alone 90, right? Or even 100, he he surpassed that milestone by a couple of years. But when he turned 90, uh, which was like, how did I get here? I I never expected. And he was so full of gratitude and light and life. And, uh, at the same time, and I think I mentioned this to you before, Jos, I was very close to my 50th birthday, right? And it was very interesting because I was going through all sorts of grief for my youth 50, right? And and uh all of what we're talking here, I was just fearing. There's anxiety, there was a little bit of depression, there's all sorts of uh ambiguity toward me, myself at that milestone. And I asked my dad and I said to him, "Hey dad, um right I'm turn 50. Uh what is your desire? What would you like to happen right now now that you are turning 90?" And he looked in my eye and he said, "Oh, what I would give to be 70 again." which put complete perspective to me because I was grieving and and he was nostalgic and in between we're talking about 20 years uh u forward and backwards in in where we met and that really stayed with me as stop Marcia stop counting the cycles around the the the the moon the sun right it it it means nothing. It is really what are we doing and how we confronting with the various levels of loss whatever they may be not just a number but anyways I you drink your water any other thoughts that comes to your mind uh you were mentioning that we need to have compassion right >> I I think in in this sense right and I I think this is the main goal of uh this series actually is uh to look in a m uh in a matur and and see the difference the different ways and I mean it's not that we want to focus on the hard stuff and the negative. >> Yeah. >> But unfortunately this is what we do and I I think this is a a path for us that that needs to be addressed. A subject that needs to be addressed. >> Yeah. and something that we try to

ive. >> Yeah. >> But unfortunately this is what we do and I I think this is a a path for us that that needs to be addressed. A subject that needs to be addressed. >> Yeah. and something that we try to avoid. We talk about vacations. We talk about the success of, you know, uh, of people and and sometimes, you know, we have a very hard time and society not necessarily allows us to speak about ourselves, to speak the truth, to speak about or to have a a a productive, intuitive conversation that could help one another. Because at the end of the day, all of us, we need that. >> You may be as pretty as it can be, but you're never going to be the only and the most one. There is always going to be someone that is more than you. >> Yeah, >> that can be a a a a problem for you. You're you may have all the money in the world, all the smartness, but there is never going to to have uh you know, you not never going to be the only one. There is always going to be someone that is going to have expertise that you do not have. Um you know, things that people can perform, can do that you could never do for lack of opportunity or lack of talent. Right? And and what does that mean that we are not important? How am I going to look at myself? So this is what we have to understand very much like the mechanisms of a a watch or a clock. You know we are different pieces but we all matter because otherwise the clock is not going to work. And this is how life in this planet should be uh looked at. Uh we are all little pieces of this clock that without us >> accepting that and and working in harmony. >> Yeah. >> There will not be progress. There will not be the result that we need. And uh and so there is no right and wrong. Perhaps your little piece has to turn left and the other one has to go right. Which one is right? For every place that you are there will be a different a different invitation. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Sometimes you know when we are talking about grieving people will judge in the sand. Oh my

ne is right? For every place that you are there will be a different a different invitation. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Sometimes you know when we are talking about grieving people will judge in the sand. Oh my god. Are you sad because um um you know you lost your girlfriend. >> Yeah. >> Or you know this is just one experience of life. It is going to happen many times. I mean it the lack of sensitivity. >> Yeah. >> Or are you sad because uh um you are having some pain in your back. Come on you're 50. You should have started with this pain when you were 40. So somehow we also people also remove from us the right that we have to be entitled >> to bring. >> Yeah. >> And you know sometimes things are important to us and and they are the only things that we are thinking at that moment. Right. >> Yeah. No. And I laughed not because of the I haven't been rude here, but I laughed when you said that sometimes it's just this pain, right? And I'm 50 and I have this pain in my back and it is pain regardless of your age. But I immediately just immediately uh went to a place when I was in my 20s, so long ago and far away where I exercised every morning, right? We had a boot camp every morning before work. And as you can imagine, boot camps, they're hard. They're there to to crush you, if you will, and make you uh stronger. But there was this older gentleman in the class of 20 25 year old uh uh people. But there was this older man and I remember him because he was completely gray and very distinguished and there we were with weights and and he would go and another one and he would grunt like and and then he would always end up this hourong session with oh my gosh that's the worst part about being old is grunting when you have to make any movement in a in a boot camp and I I never forgot evidently because he he he did that with with fun, right? He accepted the whatever it is that he was going through with pain or no pain. But sometimes we just have to say, "Yes, now I'm still here. I'm still in the in the

he he did that with with fun, right? He accepted the whatever it is that he was going through with pain or no pain. But sometimes we just have to say, "Yes, now I'm still here. I'm still in the in the boot camp, but beware. I'm going to grunt, right? I'm gonna suffer and I'm gonna express I'm going to vocalize that that suffering." And I just think that uh uh from a a grief perspective um just love to have your opinions about it. But uh grief uh also um contains different emotions, right? So perhaps this longing h but also for some different types of uh grief it's about anger or fear or simply nostalgia. Those bygone days of of a bygone decade of my life and we we we just have nostalgia of that or or guilt for having or not having done some things or relief. I I think you mentioned relief already or gratitude, but sometimes it is all all of those emotions and more at the same time, right? At the same time, it it just they come and they they are conflicting perhaps when you feel gratitude for this but you feel anger for the same because of a different perspective. So that's what it it makes the idea of the prisma so beautiful, but also so interesting for us to talk about those those paradoxes about how we feel when we're going through grief and loss. >> And uh you mentioned something before when we we started our conversation. >> Yeah. >> Um the word uh repression. Yeah. >> Right. And uh and now that you you bring this up like you know uh I I was only imagining putting all these emotions in a blender and and people look at us you know you're you're no longer bipolar. You are multipolar. Right. >> I love it. Yeah, >> I don't know in five minutes you're laughing and then you're crying and then you're angry and then you're you're you're complaining and uh and we learn in psychology that we should not repress our emotions. Having said that, it doesn't mean that you just have to, you know, pour out all our emotions on the the shoulders of others or just uh forget about the uh people's space and and and

ress our emotions. Having said that, it doesn't mean that you just have to, you know, pour out all our emotions on the the shoulders of others or just uh forget about the uh people's space and and and and our responsibility not to to cross over our boundaries. So it doesn't we are not saying here that just because you are feeling all those emotions you are entitled just to tell people you know I'm I I can I am like this and I can be like that and I'm going to be rude and uh and aggressive towards you. This is not what we are talking about. But we are not talking about you pretending to to yourselves and pretending to others >> that everything is okay. >> Yeah. >> And understanding very much uh just mentioning here briefly but we have the the great Elizabeth Clover Ross that >> yes has this book the theory about the five stages of grief. Sometimes people say seven >> but you know when you go through that and and sometimes it's not that we say oh today I'm in the phase of you know u angry no sometimes you go through that in in in 10 minutes in 15 minutes you you you are angry you cry you rebel you are gay and then uh you >> you accept Yeah. >> Yeah. Wow. It goes down to go up, right? Yeah. Yeah. >> And you see, so I I think it's very important for us to think about and then this is the actually the uh you know, I'll keep on getting back to that our aim here. Do not be afraid at look at yourself and your emotions. Allow yourself be compassionate with yourselves. It's not just for you to say, you know, I just heard today in a podcast that I, you know, I can be like, no, it's just for you to the process of growth. Okay, this is happening. >> Yeah. >> What can I how can I get the best out of it? >> Yeah. Yeah. I I I I like it. I I absolutely uh love the the model, right, that Elizabeth Kubler Ross brought to the world at the end of the the 60s. So, wow, right? We're talking about uh uh what 50 years ago, 70 50 60 years ago, if you will. um where from her observation she saw this universal

Ross brought to the world at the end of the the 60s. So, wow, right? We're talking about uh uh what 50 years ago, 70 50 60 years ago, if you will. um where from her observation she saw this universal curve of emotional response to grief, right? And uh and we see that in every aspect of our lives. And what I find it interesting, Jasada, when we talk about putting all this emotion in a in a blender and mix it all together and we we we cry, we laugh, we do this because we may experience indeed different griefs at the same time for different losses at the same time. So it's not that we are we compartmentalize our emotional response to to an event. uh but there's so many events in our lives um that we we need to be also aware that stress is cumulative they don't go like oh last year I did this and now I'm suffering this so it's a different curve it is cumulative and while I may be healing if you will my loss of I don't know a marriage you mentioned getting married right so that uh that family structure that I had and now with divorce it's leading with a lot of grief for that but then there is this this new potential grieving process of something else. Oh, now my children are gone uh to say live elsewhere or go to college, whatever. And there's yet another loss and and the loss of a house and and those things kind of compound, but you deal with your uh curve of stages of grief differently for each loss. So that too, it's almost like I see myself in this raise of uh curves that go different slightly depending on whatever you're going through and it may take more time in each stage per loss than others. It's okay. That too requires compassion, >> right? Yeah, >> that too requires patience and self forgiveness and love mostly love. >> Yeah. One thing that you said that it's very important um we cannot uh tell you know for how long it is permissible for you to grief upon something that you lost. >> Yeah. And this is sometimes you know what people are very insensitive when

very important um we cannot uh tell you know for how long it is permissible for you to grief upon something that you lost. >> Yeah. And this is sometimes you know what people are very insensitive when you are talking about uh about those situations like you know I I broke up with the girlfriend. Well wasn't that few months ago three months ago six months ago or >> yeah it's like come on wake up snap out of it move on. No >> to our brain. >> No. Yeah. >> Our brain do not analyze things uh with a clock, right? >> Yes. Yes. Yes. That's very important. >> A year has passed or a month has passed. It's the emotion the emotion that we we feel at the moment. And this is one thing >> that um it's very very hard with us human beings. You know, if you let's say you were in fourth grade and a friend of you came there and and and and hit you. Mhm. >> If you see 20 years, 30 years later, this French >> and and this image comes to your mind, is not only the memory that comes, but the emotion that you felt at that same day 30 years later. And so this is how our our brain our spirit works. You know it comes with the this full intensity and and that is why it is so high how so hard for us to to tame our minds right but sometimes they do need that because we have to keep on remember that was 30 years ago. I cannot label this friend when he was like, you know, seven and eight, nine years old and now 30 years later, 40 years later, oh, it's that that boy that hit me was in third, fourth grade, you know, and and sometimes and that that's how it works and and that's the reason why when we are talking about this about griefing about the processes that we are going through uh there is no get over with, you know, just forget about it, you know, move on. And okay, I understand that that sometimes in the minds of people, those can be words of encouragement, motivation for us. I mean, that that's what they try to do. But it would be so much nicer >> if they could come and have a conversation with us instead of saying

, those can be words of encouragement, motivation for us. I mean, that that's what they try to do. But it would be so much nicer >> if they could come and have a conversation with us instead of saying the words, "Oh, it's don't you think it's time to move on?" >> You know, >> sit down and talk what is happening to you? Why it's been so hard for you to contemplate a different scenario or you know Yeah, that's make makes all the difference. >> Yeah. I my word is because you mentioned compassion right and to me it's also empathy or in so many words emotional intelligence but uh as I speak to that uh and I think you already mentioned uh Josara but uh maybe for you as we're wrapping up our conversation today about launching a new series of talks on the the the many colors and and perspectives on grief Um, this series was not just born out of oh let's talk about uh the book by Elizabeth Kubler Ross and and grief right uh I think her book that he introduced that was on death and dying right but it's not theory alone it it really came from listening right Josara listening listening to life listening to people listening to the many stories of suffering and uh reading the beautiful uh works from Joanna D'Angelus and Devaldo Pera Franco but it's it's really not about coming here to provide a a cookbook or recipe by managing grief. But it's perhaps conversations to help us see grieving differently. >> Yes, absolutely. And and I think you know like we said at the beginning this whole purpose came about because of the works of Joanna Danggeles >> that we have been studying with the importance of psychoanalysis that young and Freud and so many others and Victor Franco actually we are going to be have to be talking about him about you know the sense of life may beautiful so important, right? I mean, for us to think if we don't have a a goal, a name, if we don't understand the why we're living and yes, absolutely is about um living in a deeper way. You know, sometimes we barely touch the surface

, for us to think if we don't have a a goal, a name, if we don't understand the why we're living and yes, absolutely is about um living in a deeper way. You know, sometimes we barely touch the surface and people are very or they feel comfortable in in in being shallow. >> Yeah. >> Uh but this is not what we need anymore. And in this is not even the loved ones that are near us. They need they don't need shallow relatives, parents, children, sons. They they they need they need people that they will be able to uh open themselves up and say listen I'm going through this phase and the phase like you said and this is what we are going to be uh dealing in and talking here in this series is different phases and a and the same because you know you can be a child going through the you know the the the transition the losses uh the griefing of the different aspects of childhood but at the same time you can be experiencing uh loss of health, loss of you know >> mental health, loss of relatives and it's not just because you are too small still in your childhood that we are not going to experience things that are more from you know the grownup world and at the same time um wow we have therapy for that because sometimes I have to look at my hurt child right in order to understand my my behavior today and so I have to revisit uh my early years and understand that you know the reason why I react or or or I I avoid or I go after certain things is related to that specific phase of our lives. So this make life very very rich because it's not just about the exact moment that you are living which yes can determine the rest of your life happiness or complications but it's about the whole the sum up of everything and when we deal with that >> like we do in ter in terms of spiritual knowledge >> uh thinking about so many different existence es and this is becomes even more special and richer. >> Yeah, I think the word to me is authenticity, right? When you talk about a shallow experience or an authentic deeper as as opposed to

existence es and this is becomes even more special and richer. >> Yeah, I think the word to me is authenticity, right? When you talk about a shallow experience or an authentic deeper as as opposed to to shallow relationship with yourself and with others, right? because this is truly an invitation to compassion but also to awakening to who we truly are. Um, Josara, we are at time and I just love that uh that we are just uh today here launching this new series of talks about the many different colors uh associated to to grief, right? And and as we close this conversation, this first one, I just wanted to leave all of us with something quite simple, if not potentially revolutionary. Uh grief does not mean we failed, right? And uh and if we're talking about grief of a lost one, a loved one, it doesn't mean that we we love with that person failed, but that love mattered. So let's let's not rush healing the the pain that comes from uh from grieving. Let us really treat that process as perhaps an interruption of what life the day-to-day life was but for whatever reason a cycle ends and let's look at it how can we rearrange our feelings our emotions how can we change even how I I manage my life in this new cycle in in a way that is compassionate to me and to others. in a way that is quite loving, gentle and quite frankly in a it exalts perhaps humility because we really don't control everything like Jos we cannot say I will marry and I'm thinking of the example I will marry person X and you know it will be happily ever after sometime times that marriage will end in many cases divorce or even widowhood and we need to rethink of that relationship with that person. It does always means what is it that we can look at the history the with gratitude with love and the promise not of this emptiness or even darkness but this new beginning of that relationship. So I just want to say Jos thank you thank you so much for your beautiful thoughts and ideas on this series of talks. Uh I want

s emptiness or even darkness but this new beginning of that relationship. So I just want to say Jos thank you thank you so much for your beautiful thoughts and ideas on this series of talks. Uh I want to thank you specifically for that and uh we will continue with different um aspects of uh grief and I want to thank all of you who are here today uh listening to us come back and uh if you know somebody who's going through grief please let them know that we are uh going to be talking the many many aspects of grieving and loss but for you If this is the first time that you're listening to our conversation, this program, the psychology and spirituality weekly talks, they're all based on the works by Joanna D'Angelus. So, we hope you're able to extract some things, get excited about the upcoming episodes. And uh of course um I want to also thank our sponsors mansion, the United States Spiritist Federation, the International Spiritist Council and Ammy Brazil. And uh everyone thank you and so long till next week.