Ep 138 - The Transformative Power of Suffering

Hey, hello everyone. Welcome to psychology and spirituality, a bridge to better life discussion. As a note uh our weekly episodes we explore the intersection of spirituality and psychology and uh as a result as the aftermath of this exercise we capture some wisdom contained in both fields. Hi Jos, how you doing today? >> Hi Marcia. Hello everyone. Welcome back to our podcast. >> Thank you. Well, Jos and I have a proposal today. We're going to take a look at uh something that uh we we collectively speaking, we often fear, we avoid or even try to to just silence the voice, the thundering voice of suffering. But um just the thought to my mind you know that it comes is what if suffering is not an enemy for us to to fight right? If we could you know just flip it around and look at suffering as a sacred invitation. I know I know you may think Marcia let's not talk about masochism here. No no no. But if we look at it as as this sacred invitation, a a call from deep within that is asking us, pulling us toward living authentically, right? To uh asking us, inviting us to grow and the most amazing thing that we can do with our lives is to to transcend what we are today. So, in the world that uh and and I know we we both live in a in in a very comfortable world, first world, right, in the US, but this world somehow glorifies comfort, um distractions, escape, right? We we're here to talk about a different narrative which is that the pain that we face is indeed that spiritual talent and I'm referencing here the parable of the talents right or a path that when we we do embrace it with say awareness with love it can awaken the best within us even uh referencing now Joseph Campbell right? Awaken the hearer within and lead us back to our journey toward the divine. So simple question for you and I'd love to hear your thoughts. Why do we suffer? What do what do you think? Go ahead. >> First of all, let me congratulate everyone that is listening to this podcast. Mhm. >> In my point of view, it means that your

r your thoughts. Why do we suffer? What do what do you think? Go ahead. >> First of all, let me congratulate everyone that is listening to this podcast. Mhm. >> In my point of view, it means that your uh your spirits more mature because this is a very difficult subject when we are going to be talking about pain, death, all those things that we wanted to avoid that we we don't wanted to discuss, we don't want to uh understand the lessons that come behind that. We we really we really prefer to go in a different path. So uh one thing that we have to say is that suffering for you is different that what is suffering for for me. We may have some common grounds of course when we are talking about physical suffering. Um, if it's something that is causing pain in my body, in your body, it's basically going to be the same. Although maybe you are more capable of enduring more physical pain than I am, but still uh we may agree there. But when we are talking about suffering, what we call suffering, it can be as trivial as you know, I go to the ice cream shop and I want a certain flavor. uh and they don't have it. So I'm very upset. I'm suffering because I wanted that. So it's it caused me causes me a discomfort somehow. So we are not talking about this here. We are talking about the serious stuff and the the real really the the challenges. I I most of the time I don't I don't like to use the word suffering per se. Mhm. >> Um I prefer to say you know the challenges that we are going to have and it's important to to pay attention as well because you know the challenges that are going to make us grow can present themselves as something that we are going to classify as suffering or something that we are going to classify as happiness. So even when we are you know going through something that we will say oh this is good this is nice maybe there is a lesson there that we have to understand according to Joanna D'Angel and in her writings and we always like to refer her here after all we are talking about

h this is good this is nice maybe there is a lesson there that we have to understand according to Joanna D'Angel and in her writings and we always like to refer her here after all we are talking about spirituality and psychology and on the basis of her work She she starts by saying that suffering believing that suffering is not part of the world is a utopia and that somehow even not knowing that we crave for challenges. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> For things that are going to, you know, to challenge us to uh go one step ahead. Uh it's like that in all of our achievements. Uh >> I was thinking if you go to the pool and you're able to do three laps, you know, your goal next week will be four and then it's going to be five and six and so on, you know, and when you do that, you are imposing to yourself to go further than it it is already capable of going. So this is how you know these challenges that that will present themselves many times in form uh in a way of making us not feel comfortable and say I'm suffering because I cannot achieve that. I'm suffering because of you know I have a physical discomfort all of that has a name and and when we think from the spiritual and spiritist perspective we um have to talk about reincarnation. >> Yes. >> And as being presented to us as opportunities for us to be able to experience those challenges. So suffering is um it's a big word. >> Yes. Yes. >> Speaking, right? uh and how we can deal with that as well is going to say and to show us how um more uh spiritual learning we have or not. >> Yeah. >> What is your attitude before all that? >> Yeah. You know, I I was just uh you know, playing back in my mind what what you're referencing with Joanna D'Angelus and what you know what she she mentioned that uh uh wanting or desiring a a life that is less full of challenges perhaps, right? And and that's a utopia that we all have. And um and we we keep thinking and she says very clearly what John the Angels right so human suffering is part of the current set of structure in our

, right? And and that's a utopia that we all have. And um and we we keep thinking and she says very clearly what John the Angels right so human suffering is part of the current set of structure in our life in our material life and it's a requirement right Joad it's a requirement we we need to go through this almost like um uh say the real silly analogy here but say we are in in a campground ground and oh it's getting cold and we are really not equipped. So we need to to create fire. So we need the friction between two objects right uh to to to pieces of uh uh two rocks or whatever and and we do that and uh it gets to that fire. Earlier in another episode we talked about uh uh the sculpture which I I love that analogy you brought it uh uh of Michelangelo sculpting you know a form out of the marble right Josara and and and you can think of it it's painful but it's not it's just removing uh it takes that sense of friction to get to where we need to be or or we we are planned to to to the outcome that we we have but in inherent in this two discussions is this utopia that we have and maybe uh historically speaking and please uh redirect me if I'm going too far a few but you know historically speaking our lives hum humanity as a whole had we we have uh had an easier and easier and easier life and if go back 10 years ago ago, 20 years ago, 50 years ago, so on so forth. It life just to to exist on a daily basis was much harder. The longer back we go, the harder it was. So we can assume in our very almost childish minds to say at some point there will be absolutely no need to be challenged to work. Everything will be given to us, right? uh in in this uh um in this view that uh everything will be uh technology and advancements will provide us with what we need so we don't have to suffer. But the truth is and I I want your thoughts on that. The truth is that uh if we were to imagine truly a world without any struggles, any challenges as you pull it would really lead to a our intelligence is not being

s and I I want your thoughts on that. The truth is that uh if we were to imagine truly a world without any struggles, any challenges as you pull it would really lead to a our intelligence is not being stimulated, right? we we would not really fight for anything, grow of anything like your example of the pool and that comfort that uh I don't know a a vacation in the in a resort that I'm uh all my whims and desires are given to me and I don't have to think about it. All those comforts I if so prolonged I it eventually becomes quite boring right I I not challenged as you put it I'm not growing therefore there is no meaning to living I don't know does this make sense to you >> actually one image you know that that's the way I work right my mind while you were talking an image came to my mind you talking about and the boredom of life. >> I think sometimes you know um one of the things that um prevents human beings >> I don't know to to try to be good or even to think about life after death is the that we have of angels leading the boring life of just playing harps right in heaven. Yes. Yeah. >> I'm going to be going to be happy doing that, right? This is I don't want that. And I think that maybe psychologically speaking, this is an image that is so strong that you mean we see so much in art. >> Yeah. >> In Christianity and all of the things. But I mean, this is not a what I want, right? in in terms of you know okay uh you led your life and now if you're good your reward is nothing >> like this right I'm just going to just going to uh twiddle my thumb and do nothing and oh my goodness what uh what a lack of purpose that life would be I I love that you brought the the the image of quite longstanding in in Christian um iconography, right? Where uh the that heaven is full of angels and all the angels cherobic as they are playing instruments and it's just this idealic sense of this is the best of the best. But is this really what heaven if we were to to continue with that discussion

all the angels cherobic as they are playing instruments and it's just this idealic sense of this is the best of the best. But is this really what heaven if we were to to continue with that discussion look like? >> At least tell me that there is competition, right? Yes. I love it. >> I want to KNOW IF I PLAY BETTER than you did. >> I love it. I love it. Yeah. A question that comes to my mind if you allow me to just pivot a little bit, Josara, is um because we we're talking about uh and you you brought up um reincarnation, right? In terms of spirituality and spiritism specifically uh that literature is foundation that literature that we believe in one life many corporal existence and that then comes the idea of reincarnation. But inherent in in that uh um concept which are basic is the idea of free will. Right? We are given complete choice and to to to select whatever lives will be, how we're going to spend our days. So, Josada, if we're so free to choose, uh maybe you can tell your thoughts. Why why should we not only choose what's good? Why do we end up seeing ourselves choosing things that uh eventually will hurt us? And we're talking about per perhaps um let's say uh your mother and father and your you know young person and like okay you have to study right you have to make do good grades and you have to to to go into this course because this will allow you to do that and there there's almost like this path for uh the easiest way for you to be and I'm talking about here materially speaking successful And what we do? Oh, we want to watch TV. We we uh leave to do our homework to the last day. We don't prepare. And this is in in a very naive way of of talking about that. We could also talk about perhaps our um eventual fall into I don't know addictions and distractions that remove us from our path which end up hurting us right why do we do this what is this call uh for us not to follow the right path if you will >> well the the answer I think at least to me is quite simple You know

rom our path which end up hurting us right why do we do this what is this call uh for us not to follow the right path if you will >> well the the answer I think at least to me is quite simple You know >> unless we achieve uh spiritual maturity we will still be uh choosing things as a child. So that's right uh select something that is going to give me immediate pleasure like you know go to a child and say if you wait till tomorrow I'll give you uh two chocolate bars but if you want it today I'll just give you half the time will say give me half. Yes, there is no sense of uh uh right that I the mathematical aspect of you get four times what you get today if you can just wait right >> yeah and we want immediate immediate satisfaction and of course as a child we are going to be choosing not necessarily the things that are important so we have to change our values and This only comes with maturity. >> Yes. >> Um and sometimes you know I again I was thinking about the silly example you know you you uh you hear and you see you know um influential people have a glass of champagne and eating caviar and then you go there. You know, you save a lot of money to do that to go there and buy in and caviar and you taste it. That bubbly thing is not that that that nice and and caviar bitter. It's not nice as well. And so I mean we we we we keep on craving for things. And this is where we can go to the the four noble truths of a Buddha. >> He talks about suffering. One of the things that when he talks about the truth, the true cause of suffering is the cravings. these things that we we we we go after things that is are going to give us sensory pleasures and um all these things that are not going to be satisfying. But what happens next? Sometimes you know because of um religion because of the the beliefs we have. You learn that you have to be good to do good things. >> Yes. And then we go to a a different stage in terms of maturity of spirit where I think that I can bargain with God.

f the the beliefs we have. You learn that you have to be good to do good things. >> Yes. And then we go to a a different stage in terms of maturity of spirit where I think that I can bargain with God. >> Yes. >> So I'm going to start doing things because God will or you know >> on high >> is to reward me with something. And and the way one of the the angelist explains this to us, you know, we have to understand that we have to do good because good is going to uh be good for us. and and she puts it as an example that she says that one who carries perfume becomes spewed with its frag fragrance just as one who carries the K is impregnate with its stench. So uh there will be in this evolution path evolutionary path that we go through >> those different stages where first I'm just thinking about my immediate uh uh satisfaction the satisfaction of of pleasures that are completely related to physical uh physical the physical aspect of life and we are going to be frust frustrated because it's part of life for us to grow. Uh we are very fragile. We can break bones. We can have you know other problems that may lead us to surgeries and etc. And pain and physical pain and emotional pain will come uh with that as well. And those are things we cannot prevent. the decay of getting old, the difficulties we will have, you know, reading glasses, all of those things that are we we are going to consider suffer and and they are inevitable. But when we grow and we mature a little bit, we start thinking about um uh paying more attention about in in this inner reward. Yes. >> Doing good brings to us. And I'm going to extend myself a little bit, Marcia, because >> no, please. >> This past week, I was uh listening to a talk by a frier, an Italian frier. >> Oh, yes. Tell tell me more. Yeah. >> Talking about glare of the Ah, and it was fascinating even because you know the way he was talking about her being a woman and how hard it was you know if we consider everything the context of everything how hard it was

of the Ah, and it was fascinating even because you know the way he was talking about her being a woman and how hard it was you know if we consider everything the context of everything how hard it was for a for her as a woman as a teenager >> to break down with uh family. She came from a noble, very rich family and all of a sudden she goes after Francis of Aisi uh cuts her hair and goes to the Benedict uh St. Benedict um uh uh how cloysters. >> Can you imagine the the all of those things? And then he said one thing that really stuck with me. He said that uh it's spirits like her. They love the suffering of love. >> It's not about suffering. It is about love. And that has stuck with me. And the other phrase that we have from the same spirit is Joanna D'Angelus Clara of Aisi reincarnation in the book the gospel according to spiritism where she says king is a blessing that God sends to his chosen ones. That is hard for us to understand. It is and and I really would love for you to explain further for everyone because I would say it's one of the hardest thing to to read. Right. >> So pain is a blessing that God sends to me. >> But I mean at least in in my way of thinking and connecting things. >> Yes. When I put those two things together, you know, pain is a blessing that God has sent to his chosen ones. And it's not that I love suffering, but I love the suffering of love. And then he explains for instance the love of Christ for us >> graced crucifixion to teach us also the lesson of resurrection of life after death. >> Yes. So in a way is when we understand that more evolved spirits are going to look at things that we uh uh classify as suffering in a different aspect. Let's say I have to go to a very difficult neighborhood um to do some good. >> Yeah. I'll have to face the suffering that this is going to cause me to go to this place, the stench perhaps that is going to be there. And I remember when I was putting all of this together, trying to, you know, to to make sense of this

that this is going to cause me to go to this place, the stench perhaps that is going to be there. And I remember when I was putting all of this together, trying to, you know, to to make sense of this thing is a blessing that it goes to the chosen ones and the love >> uh uh you know uh is is suffer suffering because of love and I was thinking about Mother Teresa of Kolkata in that film. >> That's right. Yeah. that uh you know I I myself have told this example several times and forgive me if I'm repeating myself here but it's that that that that day that she had an appointment with uh a journalist and she was there in the middle of the interview and then all of a sudden she tells him I'm sorry I have to leave and she just laughed and of course it hurt his pride. He's saying, "Come on, I I I I made an appointment. You know, this time is for me." But I mean, she just left. But in in a moment of, you know, not just giving uh the voice to his pride, he decided to follow her >> to see what was she going to do and even what she going to do that could be more important than the interview with him. And according to what he says she started walking in the narrow streets of Kolkata and she comes to a place where there is you know just a pile of garbage and she goes to this pile of garbage and there she finds a man that is basically in a state of the uh body uh the composition and she grabs the man, places him in her lap, start caressing ing him and then he dies. And when she leaves, the journalist is completely in awe, not understanding what what's she doing. And then he tells her, I wouldn't do that for a million dollars. And she said, neither would I, just out of love. So this is the love that see nos uh no obstacle in serving and those spirits that uh like we have in this book by Shiko Savior Emanuel the spirit uh renunciation where it talks about the story of a spirit that it lives in a more evolved um or planet. Yeah. >> And al and she asks for a reincarnation on planet earth to go and take care of

spirit uh renunciation where it talks about the story of a spirit that it lives in a more evolved um or planet. Yeah. >> And al and she asks for a reincarnation on planet earth to go and take care of her loved ones. And so um it comes to a point that the challenges may be more difficult like adulthood and we can make a comparison with this adulthood. Uh, it means that if I'm going through things that are challenging me more, it's because I'm already growing spiritually speaking. >> I love it. Yeah. >> And uh we will see that all of those that we classify as saints, I mean they they they don't they just go and do what they have to do. They are not thinking, oh maybe if I go to this neighborhood or if I go to a hospital where there are children with cancer is going to be too much suffering for me. >> Yes. >> Right. This is the love the suffering that comes out of love but it's pure love. And so I I don't know if I could make myself clear because I think this is so found there are so many layers in that and so it makes me think that uh you know when we are going through >> orals and um that are very very challenging to us. We have to try to learn the lesson that is behind all that. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. I I have to say, Jos, uh and I too may be repeating myself, but long ago in far away, this is decades ago, I I had a whole year of deep deep deep suffering. I just it it's one of those things that uh it was uh to me really specific. I can see myself crying, yelling of pain in the middle of nowhere, right? Just just the the the the suffering that I was going through. Um there was a reason, there was a suffering and it ended and a few years later I could put two and two together and despite the suffering because of what happened at the time uh it really benefited my children in in way that I if if I did not go through that they would have been um led into a very difficult position in their own choices, right? And all I had to do was look into that correlation to to say, Josada, I would do it all again. I would

ough that they would have been um led into a very difficult position in their own choices, right? And all I had to do was look into that correlation to to say, Josada, I would do it all again. I would go through the worst year of my life all over again knowing that that prevented something so bad to the ones I love. And and I think maybe this is what you're saying. It's suffering out of love, right? It comes out of love and uh sometimes we we are too naive to to to make those correlation. I certainly was at the time, right? But uh I if we if we have faith in this infinite mercy, the infinite love that God, and I'm talking about the divine has for all of us, then suffering is is um is accepted like Mother Teresa um throwing in in into the you know garbage and and and rescuing that man in his uh uh less moments of life to give a little bit of comfort out of love. Right. Beautiful. >> You said that Marcia because uh this is really uh the conclusion we have to have when going through those challenges and orals of life that sometimes we don't understand. And you may remember that um uh when I was still living in in Brazil over 30 years ago, >> I had a very very good job. I was uh wow it was almost like a dream job and um I was fired and there was no reason for me to be fired and it was I mean it I it was really really bad. I I I suffered a lot. This to me was a suffering. Not only I was deprived of a a job that I like it so much, but then you know the financial aspects, everything that comes with it. >> Uh I tried to get a new job and I couldn't get a new job which was also very astonishing >> um because it it shouldn't have been that difficult. And few months later my husband was invited by his work to move abroad. And well I had nothing there that would be in the way of you know us pondering whether this was going to be a good or a bad idea. So okay let's go and move. And here we are 30 30 years uh after. And like you said, I mean, um, of course, at the moment, I couldn't understand if I

whether this was going to be a good or a bad idea. So okay let's go and move. And here we are 30 30 years uh after. And like you said, I mean, um, of course, at the moment, I couldn't understand if I were in that job. Probably we would say, "No, we cannot, uh, just go abroad and we have all the security here. You're working and this and that." And so, I mean, and and life was was so interesting after all that, right? I I >> like you said, I wouldn't trade it again. I would go through all those months. It was more than six months. It was unbelievable that I couldn't find a job. >> And uh and I mean there there was a purpose. >> Yes. >> And and and the thing is many times we don't understand why we have this purpose. And I was thinking about the um the uh um the example of um the pastor. What how do I say pastor? I pastor that goes after the ship. >> The shepherd. >> Shepherd. Sorry. >> Yes. >> Shepherd that goes after the sheep. And there is that that one that is going walking towards an abbies. >> Yeah. >> And the the ship doesn't see it. >> Yeah. >> And I'm there happy just going to my hands and all of a sudden there is >> Yes. >> This king that comes from the shepher and grabs you and oh my god it is a pain. Right. I wanted to be free. like you were saying free of will, but free will in choosing what >> in choosing what kind of path. >> And um and so there is a a phrase for from Oscar Wild that I like very much that says that when the gods want to punish you, they answer your prayers. So many times we are praying for something that is not going to be good to us. And this is one thing that Joanna D'Angelus emphasizes very much uh in in several of her her books and and and in and this one in particular where she talks about suffering as well which is prayer. Uh we have to pray to to ask for enlightenment. >> Yes. And uh and I think you know this is uh we we really have to be thinking like you know like you were sharing with us now you know something that was so bad

to pray to to ask for enlightenment. >> Yes. And uh and I think you know this is uh we we really have to be thinking like you know like you were sharing with us now you know something that was so bad but it was a salvation. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. But I couldn't see. I was blind to what it did until it was over. Right. So uh the the the the main conclusion to me was when when it when the correlation came, I I saw how as much as I thought of myself as somebody that had faith that my faith was compromised that I did not believe >> that I would not go uh harmed. There was no harm. I overcame all that was so difficult to to go through all of it. So, so I think this is this is probably um this discussion today, right? Um and just to recap uh because I think it was so interesting that you brought back a Buddha in the four noble truths, right? where it's he Buddha he looks and he talks to us he tells us um about the path go through it the having the right understanding of what is that reality and if it causes suffering why is that and uh and you mentioned earlier reincarnation because reincarnation provides that sense of uh um opportunities, right? Where we we are able to in a new existence, a new corporate existence, new incarnation to look back into our errors. Um and somehow change that into uh wisdom, to learnings, to refinement, if you will. uh where we then truly when we're able to transform that past we're able to become free from within of those past right so um I don't know the the best image that comes to my mind uh Josada is this garden I I love garden I'm not a good gardener but I love gardens but if you look into this garden and it's overrun with weeds Right. And uh the idea here is with reincarnation is that we cannot just say but I love flowers. I'm just going to put more flowers. No, we need to first tend to the soil. We need to remove those weeds and then start looking to plant for those beautiful flowers that you want to see. So pain and suffering may be the signal

flowers. No, we need to first tend to the soil. We need to remove those weeds and then start looking to plant for those beautiful flowers that you want to see. So pain and suffering may be the signal that uh that that soil needs to be worked on right there is something there that we need to pay attention to to look into that. Um I wanted to go ahead. Um one thing that I would like to emphasize to our listeners is that um we are not dismissing here saying that uh okay just accept suffering is nothing or you're you're being weak if you are sure >> no it has nothing to do with that pain is hard we will we will cry we will scream sometimes emotional pain that breaks our hearts will bring tears to us, will bring anguish. >> Uh but we should not give ourselves to desperation, to despair, uh to lose all the the the lessons but also to lose the will to leave. And I was thinking here about Victor Franco right was uh uh Oshvitz right camp and he came out of that talking about the sense of life and the sense of life in bringing love and love from oneself we have as you know adults everyone of us here everyone that is listening I'm sure you went through stuff in life already. >> Yeah. >> You you shed your tears. You felt betrayed. You had physical pains. You had to endure difficulties in your your workplace in your career, in your family relation with your family, family relationships and friends. But we are here. We are still standing. And the idea is that for us to to keep going and and each to one each one of those you know challenges that we go through through is like you know the uh the chiseling of the excess of marble that is preventing us to to show our fullness ourselves and planitude. Um yeah. So before we finish I I put together something that I wrote and >> yes you to us more proetic things. >> Yes. >> Um there is a kind of pain that is holy. It does not come to destroy but to awaken. It arrives not as punishment but a tender invitation, a quiet whisper from God, calling us to

tic things. >> Yes. >> Um there is a kind of pain that is holy. It does not come to destroy but to awaken. It arrives not as punishment but a tender invitation, a quiet whisper from God, calling us to rise above ourselves. To love deeply is to open the heart to joy and to sorrow. To embrace the risk of being wounded for the sake of another's good. It is to hold nothing back even when gratitude is absent. Even when our efforts seem unseen or unreturned. This is not a suffering we chase nor a bitterness we glorify. It is the gentle suffering born of compassion of carrying another another's burden of forgiving what feels unforgivable of choosing to remain kind in the face of cruelty. faithful in the face of betrayal, hopeful in the face of loss. It is here in this sacred space that we find the mysterious blessing is spoken of by the gospel. The suffering that God sends to those he calls his own. It purifies like fire, not to consume but to make gold of the soul. To love the suffering of loving is not to seek pain but to transform it. To let every tear water the soil of our hearts until compassion blooms more richly until our hands worn from giving become extensions of God's hands. For in the end, it is not the absence of suffering that brings peace, but the embrace of a love so deep, so divine that even suffering itself is transfigured into a blessing. Oh, >> beautiful, beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that with us. Uh Josara, we as you said, we are at time, but what a wonderful opportunity for us to talk about this difficult topic in a way that is truly truly uplifting. And uh I just want to say you mention you mentioned um Joanna D'Angelus when she mentions um uh he who carries perfume will carry its scent, right? Just as the one that handles rot will also be tainted or be the stench will be there. And uh and it's so wonderful all of us to think that suffering is not just pain right but perfume and when we approach it perhaps with with faith with courage

e tainted or be the stench will be there. And uh and it's so wonderful all of us to think that suffering is not just pain right but perfume and when we approach it perhaps with with faith with courage with even with responsibility it is that I don't know sacred aroma that will refine our souls and draw us closer to one another and to to the divine. mind. So let us all all of us remember this as Josada mentioned earlier in our darkest most painful moments let's remember we are not alone we're not orphaned we're not abandoned and um the suffering that we're going through will carry maybe as a as a spiritual gift right will carry us through our own transformation and our own path toward individuation. So let us not fear suffering. Let us embrace it not in a masochistic manner but in in the manner that it will help us um grow and and transform. And I would just say thank you. Thank you Josada for your beautiful words. Thank you everyone for being here. Thank you for joining us in this psychology and spirituality episode. And uh if this is the first time you are with us, um just a a note a reminder that the psychology and spiritually spirituality weekly talks are based as you heard us uh referencing many times Joanna D'Angelus. They're based on the works by Joanna and we hope that we're able to learn and transcend your own thoughts around psychology and spirituality. And I also want to say thank you Josara for your your being here for your thoughts, insights, and your beautiful beautiful words. And thank you all of our sponsors, the United States Spiritist Federation, the International Spiritist Council, and Brazil, the Brazilian arm of the medical spiritist association. Thank you everyone, and I hope to see you next episode. Bye.