Ep 70 - Struggling with Shame and Guilt

hi everyone welcome to the psychology and spirituality a bridge to Better Life discussion I'm your host mercan and with me is my dear friend an Sinclair and thank you so much for joining us in this other episode of the program thank you so much for having me yes and as we know and we we are in a state that um we are you know pressed upon to carefully build this is an egoic construct of course but uh carefully build personas our masks and we are really pressed to um present ourselves as the best we can be and most often of course those are reflection of a idealized egoic construct of how we would like to be not necessarily what we are and in doing so we are most often unprepared to deal with things such as failure mistakes issues that we we're going through and uh because we're prepared and we end up utilizing defense uh Escape mechanism to to defend to protect the illusion of who we are instead of really confronting those inner conflicts that we carry so I feel that the feelings of uh shame and and guilt are just this enormous part of the current Society context in which we immersed and I love that we're here and because we're going to Center our discussion today as an invitation for all of us to understand how to be open and to confront to face our inner conflicts and we need to do this by shifting our Focus instead of Defending an image and I put my hand in front of me because I always think of a mask right instead of focusing on creating defend the mask but to really focusing on embarking this journey of self-awareness and to have the will to become the better person right the better Marcia the better and the better you but uh before we address that an I would like to introduce the program to those who may have not heard it before thank you for being here but uh if this is the first time you're watching this podcast please note that our program psychology and spirituality weekly talks are based on the works by Jill Anna deangeles and we're here this is our mission to offer a safe space to

re watching this podcast please note that our program psychology and spirituality weekly talks are based on the works by Jill Anna deangeles and we're here this is our mission to offer a safe space to confront compare correlate and most important expand our spirituality Concepts now from the psychological lands so that we can access insights tips or even advice to help you and I lead a better life please note before we continue our program sponsored by the United States Spirits Federation the TV manando C the international spiritist Council and Amy Brazil before we start I would like to say if you haven't already done so please hit subscribe so you can get notifications of our next uh week episodes and if you'd like to know more there's a lot of information a lot of resources at spiritist us and finally if you have any questions any feedback any I don't know critique whatever please write them down in the chat window and I'd love to hear from you and address if not now at a later episode so and we meet again and and uh I I know that uh you recognize that we talked about different aspects of guilt and boy this is not an easy topic right but I appreciate you taking this journey with me as we break down the topic layer by layer and today's layer is shame can you start perhaps in by defining shame to us yeah sure sure so read it because make it easier just a general definition of Shame which is a painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the Consciousness or perception of wrong or foolish Behavior or improper or immoral Behavior so basically it's talking about our pain and our humiliation related to behaviors that are perceived as not being okay let's put it like that yes and it's interesting because uh when I was reading um here jna dangeles she's always so inclusive so she says all of us yeah yeah will suffer with shame and guilt at some point in our lives somewhere along the line so the topic is not for others but it's for each one of us and I really love it that but uh you

all of us yeah yeah will suffer with shame and guilt at some point in our lives somewhere along the line so the topic is not for others but it's for each one of us and I really love it that but uh you know we're all um focusing on this journey of self-discovery of really uh trying to come to understand ourselves and to accept ourselves because as well as Renda says just taking it as a point of uh because shame can be quite a painful topic let's just put it at this point that at this point we are at the the most evolved part of our Evolution that we've ever been we are the best version of ourselves that we've ever been that's a very good point right we yeah don't be ashamed for being who you are because you know news flash this is it this is the best you can be and and I think U as I was mentioned before this desire right to to create an illusion of who we want to be and of course that who we want to be is really a Benchmark given to us by Society right and Society is giving those benchmarks based largely on mythological views of the perfect man and I'm talking mythological because I'm referencing books novels uh movies series you know all the the plethora of uh channels of information that we get from everybody body including social media how we always presting ourselves and and that's quite mythological because it's not real right it's really archetypical as as they're becoming images of you and I and if we're not there we are perhaps failing and is that failure to not be the failure to be what we're not which is is the authentic self by the way if the failure of uh not be what we're not really to be who we are is L LED or or absorbed in our inner selves right our our psyche uh is of Shame like I I I I am not I but but but that's my let's say public Persona I created this Persona and now I have to be and I spent all my time right and creating um an illusion but also protecting that illusion and when that illusion for those instance when we we have a m major Fallout uh is shattered then we often

be and I spent all my time right and creating um an illusion but also protecting that illusion and when that illusion for those instance when we we have a m major Fallout uh is shattered then we often goes to often go to defense mechanism right be it justifications rationalization and so many other defense mechanisms but the to back to you with the shame is uh based on the definition is a very painful feeling right yeah and that's why it's so uncomfortable because we don't want to be dealing with pain but as jna says it's something that we will all experience at some point and if we think no that's not for me not you know it's it's like most things when we think it's not for us is because we are perhaps repressing it or hiding it not being aware of it it's interesting because uh joh also suggest that we can look at shame like on three different levels okay on the level of the self of the person themselves on the level of Shame related to the family and the level of Shame related to society so we start with the one like of the self I can bring feelings of Shame within from uh my past from things that happened in the past that I have wounds that are still open from uh things that I I am ashamed that I did and it's this is really interesting because they were why are you ashamed that you did what you did whatever act I did solely represents my state of evolution I still primitive State I think some some of the times it's it's this like you put it so eloquently but I was thinking it's like we think we are we are angels when we are still like dragging ourselves through the swamp we have a a a misconception of where we are on our level of evolution like we believe our story We believe the bubble that we created and this is this is and trying to maintain that is really stressful so if we've committed a behavior an act that we are ashamed of for whatever reason then we have to stop why am I ashamed of this uh because it shows who I really am because what I do comes from within yes

f we've committed a behavior an act that we are ashamed of for whatever reason then we have to stop why am I ashamed of this uh because it shows who I really am because what I do comes from within yes if I if I was already at the level of Jesus I wouldn't have done it but because I'm not there yet I still do these things and I think it's just having that um starting to wake up just saying and people go like oh my gosh I can't believe I did this oh my gosh I wish I hadn't done it say yeah but you did or I did uh why do I wish I hadn't done it because I wish I was already ped this temptation I wish that I could that that wasn't that was a nonissue for me now but still un caught up with it that just shows that this is something that is still in me and we are very close still to the beginning of our Evolution so our primitive impulses are still very present in us but we don't acknowledge them them and if we don't acknowledge them then they catch us by surprise by the way we are yeah so so sorry yeah no no I'm just thinking and this is impromptu thought here uh uh because we talk about the Primitive self right uh and the Angelic self this is future State and the future State um in The evolutionary path of an immortal spirit right uh now spiritism and and both of us uh do believe in spiritism we we we are spiritists right and uh spiritism brings us the notion that the world that we live uh like our human our sorry our spirit also goes through some Evolutions right and those evolutions and those are from an academic purposes a lower level higher level whatever but from a a a a world uh uh perspective we're talking about the Primitive world the world of Trials and expiations the world regeneration so on so forth and and I keep seeing that uh if you give me just a second here if you look at the Primitive World um as it regards to shame uh which puts us in more as a you would see right uh let's say uh a lioness kills a lioness is not ashamed of killing right because it is um in its

ook at the Primitive World um as it regards to shame uh which puts us in more as a you would see right uh let's say uh a lioness kills a lioness is not ashamed of killing right because it is um in its evolutionary stage as an animal it's doing the killing not for perverse reasons but for survival right self- protection um as we evolve in in in human kind our primtive self perhaps did not have a sense of shame because we're just surviving as we evolve and we're talking about the moral Evolution as we evolve spiritually now we we we coming through this but I should be better but I'm not am I ashamed from those the self that you start saying like the inner conflicts or the external circumstances that labels uh all of us this this external uh world that tries or attempts to to label who we are how we should be and and then of course in a different path at a you know different world when we're much much more evolved there will be no shame because like you said Joanne is very inclusive uh in that at that point we would be reading from Joanna we're all good because we are self aware and we know the level of immaturity we are and we love ourselves nevertheless does this make sense yeah that that's that's great Marc I think that was a really good uh bringing that aspect of it because I think it's really crucial to our understanding is this sense of evolution in One Direction we always getting better and better and uh that recognizing where we are on that point of evolution uh and even where our planet is in terms of of you know the worlds and where we are according you know to how the the spirits explained to Alan cardic in the spirits book back in the 19th century that is really helpful uh for us to locate ourselves and to bring down those expectations from a fantasy level to a more realistic level and uh I think that um you know that recognizing that you know what are the impulses that we still have rather than hying them yes then you say okay I have let's say I can easily fall into

istic level and uh I think that um you know that recognizing that you know what are the impulses that we still have rather than hying them yes then you say okay I have let's say I can easily fall into this temptation whatever the Temptation let's say I recognize that that in me is I have that if I recognize that and I pay attention to it I can work with it yeah so I say this kind of place it's not does not suit me because I know that I can be tempted here because I know I still have Temptations in this area whatever so rather than negating it I am working with it and bringing it with me and accepting that this is this is part of me that slowly will be transformed because everything is transformed and progress is inevitable and we are all destined to Perfection so we're going through this these struggles and these um how can I say these conflicts and everything it's it's like we are it's going through the molding process for our spirit if you like and even if you take like then shame like talking in terms of evolution the establishment of moral codes or rules for let's say the tribe or the community the use of Shame could control the population says we want our tribe our community to beave in such a way that we think it's a way that is suitable or advantageous or or healthy for our group and if you behave outside that you will be excluded and in a in a society where if you're excluded you might not have the means to survive on your own it's a big thing and and and and we we do need right we we as social animals we do need we must feel a sense of belonging right it's a it's a very strong driver to our behaviors the sense of uh I belong I belong to this family I belong to this clan this neighborhood this soccer club or football club for the for the British right whatever whatever is the the the the click the community the tribe the clan and and so from that perspective I can see that shame can be a very powerful uh antidote if you will to uh non-acceptable behaviors for that group

he the the the click the community the tribe the clan and and so from that perspective I can see that shame can be a very powerful uh antidote if you will to uh non-acceptable behaviors for that group yeah and I think that we need to consider that um all of us uh in our process of evolution either have witnessed people being excluded or we have been excluded ourselves so there is a real fear that can be attached to this yeah although the way we live in Western Society is different uh in terms of the uh how we how we depend on the group and that there is space for differences and to grow and develop so one of the things that um that J Jes also suggests like like in the past like in the medieval times she talks about Medieval Times everything that was unknown to the church was considered a sin so the sin was everything that was like we don't understand this so it's a sin it's not allowed it's not good it's actually like a I see um in my mind's eye it goes into little jars with colors right yeah so everything has to be a different color but if it's h if it doesn't belong if it's a different shade you you throw out uh and of course uh the the the the notion of heresy or heretical beliefs and behaviors through the um Inquisition in that case led to not just people to conform but conform by horror right by terrible terrible um uh aspects of the church at the time we're talking about Catholic Church uh Christian Church at the time right where uh there would be torture would be terrible terrible deaths if and only if you did not conform to a given so I I love the Jin of d'angeles brings that because it's very fresh still in our memory yeah and I would say I mean you know around the globe today and we see it even in the UK in some immigrant populations you have control o of individuals through the family and their communities um through what they consider the honor and we have here sometimes honor killings if the person doesn't conform to what that family or that community expect they would prefer

ily and their communities um through what they consider the honor and we have here sometimes honor killings if the person doesn't conform to what that family or that community expect they would prefer to remove the person by by murdering them than for them to continue to be alive because them being alive is a continuous source of shame to that family or that Community that's really really powerful and that happens today in 2024 yeah in the UK in Europe and for us it's quite shocking sometimes because we become like more of a western sort of upbringing you say how they behave in this way and you have to really realize how how very strong this the the power of Shame is in situations like this and that this how it was you know for us you know going back history a little bit so that is just keeping it alive and I I think it's no disrespect to those communities but it's just a remind us that it's very close you know ER and it's still on on the earth and we were talking earlier we're talking like moral standards and uh talking about like being unmarried uh mother in the UK you know before the war that you know you'd be shameful you would be kicked out of your home you would be excluded from your family you would be excluded from your community your child would be removed you the woman yeah okay now be a feminist but yeah the woman was you know this thing of uh the temptress The Prostitute the person who brings down our community the the person who's very shamed but you take it nowadays you know here in London only about 30 30% of of couples who have children are married every you know it's it's their change Customs it is there is reason why these moral standards were there and in a way even to protect you know children Bor born out of marriage would be ER how would they bring them up they couldn't work and you know there's all the economic and social reasons for it I'm not saying that there wasn't a reason behind the establishment but the the consequences were very hard very painful so you can

work and you know there's all the economic and social reasons for it I'm not saying that there wasn't a reason behind the establishment but the the consequences were very hard very painful so you can imagine that all of us as Spirits now incarnated we bring these wounds quite you know recent because it's just within it's within living memory isn't it so we have to be kind also and and consider it thinking you know if people from other Generations are thinking in a very rigid way still it's not easy to to look at the issues of Shame and to break away it's yeah Joanna calls those uh atavistic inheritance right so things that we are not even aware but are part of a remote past and by remote we we're talking maybe previous incarnation ations and it's part I I think Freud speaks of it as your personal unconscious as if if it's within this one Lifetime and of course Yung uh references to it as part of this concept of collective unconscious regardless of that I I I'd like to to believe in that uh um the sense of Shame current or earlier still plagues us even as a modern society and we're talking about Western Mo modern Western Society UK the US Etc um it's there's a much more leniency in in the the same behaviors but it still plagues us and and I think that's what's important for us to be aware be aware be aware of how you judge the other right how how how do you see uh uh let's say in in the theme of the unmarried mother but how do you see a young woman and how a young woman dresses today right what are the the things that we project into that that is really a reflection of this this p and you know it's really interesting because Jah brings um one of the things that is most linked to shame and thinking about SE self shame so being ashamed of yourself she links the word intolerance yes yes so quite often she says people who are intolerant of the behaviors of others in society carry the shame of a hidden similar Behavior within the projection isn't it so if you are feeling or if I'm feeling very

often she says people who are intolerant of the behaviors of others in society carry the shame of a hidden similar Behavior within the projection isn't it so if you are feeling or if I'm feeling very intolerant towards the behavior of others in some regards I need to stop and think you know is that me as well yeah why is it so and the problem is that it's repressed right it's a it's a thing that uh most likely resides in our shadow our repressed memory repressed uh shame but I I I I love that you bring that uh in this discussion right let's be very from a self-awareness perspective let's pay attention how open am I to to what I call the other and and what I mean by that is the other because I don't recognize Within Myself right so the other type of behavior the other type of values and so on so forth if I I am not open to that why not and do I present a level of intolerance that is quite rigid and uh the stronger that intolerance may be maybe this is something that I have repressed for myself which at the end of this this whole circle is a source of pain hidden as it may be it's a source of pain yeah and I think that when you start to uh recognize your pain when you feel that Pang and you go like aha what's that where's that coming from it's almost like you get a a piece of wool and you start pulling it and pulling it and pulling and and have that Curiosity and not have fear to say what's coming you know where's this coming from what what's the end of this the there is uh some considerations that sha brings also in this chapter around uh shame that is uh caused to a child by the upbringing the parents provide where the parents are very uh cruel um where they don't uh acknowledge the presence of the child they don't nurture them with love and and support and they say things you know you shouldn't have been born uh you're a waste of space all these kind of sort of negativities we don't need to be repeating them here and uh then she's talking about that um a person that goes

u know you shouldn't have been born uh you're a waste of space all these kind of sort of negativities we don't need to be repeating them here and uh then she's talking about that um a person that goes through that kind of environment in their childhood in your childhood especially the first five years you accept everything your parents give you as the truth in which you will build so if they're telling you that you're worthless you're starting off your journey with this belief that you're worthless so you it's an imprint right this is an imprint in in how you take it on you take it on because you you don't you don't stop and think oh is this right or this wrong you just absorb everything that's how you learn as a child so you're just absorbing everything and this feelings like you are worthless so okay so you're going into the world thinking yeah I'm worthless my parents told me that day after day and this is who I am and so it's really interesting to see because she say from that Dreadful Experience One nobody goes through an experience like that just randomly sometimes this is an experience that we've requested to uh Advance our Evolution sometimes this is an experience that is the result of what we've done previously so we might have been that abusive parent in a previous life or something and now we come to experience what is to be on the receiving end of it so yeah it's a painful lesson you receive that and she said then going through ad and it says sometimes that child will escape to their room to their fantasy world because the world that's been offered by the parents is to a painful world and so by escaping from reality if you like going forwards people can can have like two ways it said some people if they build a strong enough ego as they grow old and become adults they can realize that was not okay I have these feelings of of shame that were instilled in me in my childhood but I I want to change this I want to do therapy I want to you know so you have that that mature way of of

that was not okay I have these feelings of of shame that were instilled in me in my childhood but I I want to change this I want to do therapy I want to you know so you have that that mature way of of thinking this is not okay let's deal with this and get better or or if not if the ego is not strong enough the person could end up with a mental illness or a nervous crisis as she says uh because if it's too overwhelming for them the important thing to say is like as cruel or hard or suffering or painful as anything is nothing lasts forever and there's always a new morning a new beginning and the opportunity to grow from it so I think like just talking in case of anybody out there that's listening in and feeling um despair in any way do not feel despair think you know okay you this is your experience let's let's start the Journey of healing now you know and look for the therapies that will support you uh what works for you but the most important thing which I bring now that she says which is the solution to all of these things is love yes and you start with selflove say I accept myself I love myself I am God's child you know I am a being of light I have the future ahead of me and just working on your self love to begin so that you can transform those experiences and grow out of them move out of the pain because when you are in a state of self shame that you're ashamed to be yourself every day every moment you're ashamed you're in a constant state of pain yes and that generates behaviors which is say like self uh punishment self- recrimination you because then you do say yeah but I don't deserve to be happy I don't deserve to be loved I don't deserve to have a good job I don't deserve I don't deserve because I have been brought up to be ashamed of myself yeah and and I see right um self-esteem uh being impacted uh that that sense of non-deserving as you mentioned I I'm not worthy of this or that then we have the self- sabotage and many times um it is actually unconscious you sabotage

esteem uh being impacted uh that that sense of non-deserving as you mentioned I I'm not worthy of this or that then we have the self- sabotage and many times um it is actually unconscious you sabotage yourself from having a healthy family life a healthy relationship with your partner uh you don't have a a you sabotage uh maybe your professional life your endeavors whatever they may be your desires to to grow and learn and and I think this is what's important important to me it speaks volumes to me is to understand I don't even know that I I have an impacted um self-esteem a low self-esteem because of this so this is the the the end result of the self-awareness but if I see behaviors that time and time again show that self- sabotage maybe it's time as you as you mentioned before and try to to stop to observe to inquire what is it what was behind this is it fear right is it fear of failing is it fear of being what I once was what is it that is really there and let's try to to use the mechanism the beautiful mechanism of learning if we don't know yet to love ourselves to forgive ourselves to accept ourselves to tolerate ourselves in all the shades right to because as we know in in in this very world of dualities what I am today I am not right uh we we do know in Joanna d' angels in her psychological series she brings up I think is the second book right integral human being she brings that notion that Yung called gust of also brings which is we are here on a journey toward individuation integration and individuation means one not dual right the dwelling that we have so that integration that uh nelling of our future simply means that we are going to have to accept all the nuanced approach in the conflicting uh feelings and emotions that we still bring in us because we're not there yet right we are in a evolutionary path but uh this marathon is quite long right we're we're far from from uh getting to the end of the marathon yeah no and you know that's that that is so true and just thinking

e are in a evolutionary path but uh this marathon is quite long right we're we're far from from uh getting to the end of the marathon yeah no and you know that's that that is so true and just thinking about you know the the love like say when we are able to accept our elv as we say in English wol yeah yeah and to love ourselves to understand you know our place in creation if you like in in in the universe in in God's um creation or or the source creation or whatever you want to call it but also then that allows us to once we're able to do that to look at our parents or those who might have inflicted the shame on us no longer with hatred or resentment but with the understanding that they too are our brothers and sisters on a pathway and that their choices are coming from a place of fear of ignorance of lack lack of Enlightenment if you like and then we are able to to learn to love them but it starts with us because then as we go as we learn to love ourselves then we can learn to accept to be tolerant of the shortcomings of others because we learn to be uh so like say when I say to accepting our shortcoming doesn't mean that then we become complacent or lazy and we do nothing about it but we recognize that we still have that in us that we still have those impulses that we still have those behaviors and yeah in sorry to interrup without selflove right in in in self-compassion self forgiveness we we can say I'm a loving person I love you right I love you I love you an I I I have so much love for you I don't have for me but I and the minute you start to portray or reflect what I don't love about myself I project into you intolerance right a judgment and all sorts of things so at the end of the day without selflove we are on a journey of self isolation self-hatred in many cases and uh in a pathological means it can lead to depression and and many other very difficult states to be and also I just thinking about the beauty of it as we I think it's like uh I see it in a mature way of because I'm

ogical means it can lead to depression and and many other very difficult states to be and also I just thinking about the beauty of it as we I think it's like uh I see it in a mature way of because I'm a mature woman now and it's like you don't like when you're younger you want to hide you know you've done something wrong you've U dropped the cookie jar and it broke and you tried to hide it in the bin and you know Mom goes like's the cookie jar G I don't know disappeared you know this kind of things this which is kind of like a childish behavior we reflect that sometimes we behave in the same way just with different words in our adult life you know we've done bad piece of work at work and we hide it and uh we pretend it wasn't us but then we are ashamed because we know that that's not correct to do that yeah then we are we are imposing this suffering on ourselves I I I have to share here uh because thinking about work I don't know if I shared this story before but yeah it was once an interesting experience we had a very severe boss and my colleague and I we made a mistake at work and we were like really terrified and we went there to say look I'm so really sorry we've made this mistake as soon as we identified it we went there to say what our mistake was and we had noide make it and uh he was there head down you know signing papers and we're like trembling there oh my gosh you know we've we've done this real big mistake and now we you know we don't even know what to do and he looks up to says I'm glad I'm glad you made a mistake and we were like what yeah that's interesting yeah only people who are working make mistakes the people who are not doing any work don't ever make mistake because they're not doing the work yeah this brings me to the notion uh and and we're now going to politics right politicians during elections they they they they bring forth their best self the best image and uh a lot of politicians uh live a life of scrubbing if they made mistakes trying at least to scrub their past

icians during elections they they they they bring forth their best self the best image and uh a lot of politicians uh live a life of scrubbing if they made mistakes trying at least to scrub their past mistakes because they need to bring this really polished uh unblemished V view of themselves and to me and and this is my personal view I always think the politician that has the the worst past that had all mistakes are the ones that understand what it takes to redeem themselves right and this is again this is my personal View but uh uh maybe we can reflect upon that right uh like your this this boss that you had good I'm glad because you made a mistake that means that you're trying that you're not um uh imprison in the area of comfort to only do what you already done because you know that you can do it and you don't try you don't risk you don't grow you don't stretch M yeah it's it's so interesting and the thinking about you know we we will always make mistake you you can't avoid all mistakes we try to control the situation and it's we will make mistakes and just coming to my mind just that that story of Jesus and the the woman who is going to be stoned to death for committing a sin according to their times and uh then everybody laughed when each challenged them everybody left and you know and she'll say well what you going to do with me he says well where are the people who condemn It Go and sin no more that word those words which is go and sin no more that's we need to listen to that for ourselves yeah yeah to forgive ourselves and say look okay we made a mistake go but don't repeat the same mistake try to learn from it yeah yeah and just thinking like uh you know we as we transform ourselves as we become more loving beings uh more I would say psychologically mature beings we transform our whole Community you know it it's it's it's we want others to behave better but the only way we're going to achieve that really is if we start to behave better because then we can be you know

sform our whole Community you know it it's it's it's we want others to behave better but the only way we're going to achieve that really is if we start to behave better because then we can be you know have that trigger effect that domino effect in our community it's it's truly the the the real notion of influencing others by our actions versus influencing others by a carefully curated message that is marketed that you you it's too polished let's let's influence by our being better right by trying to be better by recognizing our mistakes by accepting who you are and accepting in turn that that that the loving and tolerant view of who we think of ourselves is easily now translated into how I relate to others and I think that's the beautiful message about this this discussion on shame I would say we end up with saying don't be ashamed to recognize shame yes yes I love it to the light and transform it yeah so I think those are really beautiful words I think we should uh take this opportunity to close our call today with that and I want to say thank you thank you thank you an for being with us thank you for being with us in this podcast and we hope to see you next time bye everyone bye