Ep 49 - Are We Shallow Individuals?

hello everyone welcome to the psychology and spirituality a bridge to a better life discussion I'm your host Marcia Tran and with me is my co-host and the founder of this podcast like series of discussion Jada corn go if this is the first time you're watching uh this program please note that our program called the psychology and spirituality weekly talks are based on the works by Joanna deangeles and they offer this space so that we can confront compare correlate and expand spirituality Concepts from a psychological lens and with that bring perhaps insights tips or even some real world advice that you and I can learn and uh be able to lead a better life so today J corot who's here with me will discuss the concept that is quite Central in Jo and the Angel's work which is the notion of what is to be versus what is to have or even worse what versus the the the other component of it right just which is what is to seem to be something we're not so joet d'angeles book uh the title is the integral human being and it's going to be released very soon in English it dedicates an entire chapter in this notion of shallow individuals right to those of us who are really not deep at all but before we start our conversation let me just recognize some of the organizations that are sponsoring this program I'd like to thank the TV man the United States spir is Federation the international Council for and the spir international I'm sorry the international spiritual Council and Amy Brazil and for those of you that uh are here following us week after week we thank you and we also ask or suggest suggest that you hit subscribe if you haven't already done so if You' like to to know more about what we do please check us out at www.sp spiritist do us and by all means if you have any questions any comments any feedback critique whatever it is please write it down in the chat so that we can take a look at it and consider for future episodes but I wanted to to to read um uh just a small paragraph and I I just want us to to to

whatever it is please write it down in the chat so that we can take a look at it and consider for future episodes but I wanted to to to read um uh just a small paragraph and I I just want us to to to talk about it because it it is an incredibly insightful uh paragraph to me so Joanna d'angeles in in that book that I mentioned says the following an idealist Consciousness is one in which general well-being predominates without the selfish impulses that work on behalf of immediatism absence of such a Consciousness makes it difficult to achieve Freedom so right there we have almost enying right just out of two opposing ideas which is uh immediatism versus true Fe Freedom that comes as a consequence of that idealist conscious ious and I keep thinking let's just talk about Freedom Jada in the context of that expended Consciousness and we can really start by focusing on the idea of what is and why are we becoming a society of shallow individuals what do you think oh hi hello everyone hello Maria I think that as Joanna the angelist never ceases to amaze me because in just uh one paragraph is a small paragraph plus the title she brings such deep Concepts that we I mean there's so much for us to reflect upon you know the the things that she brings here for instance she talks about shallow individuals what are shallow individuals and then she immediately goes to an idealist Consciousness what is you know what it is to have an idealist Consciousness and she makes it a point for us to achieve freedom and as um I think it's good for us to be reminded freedom freedom is one of the ideals that we have in life we talk about peace and love but we also want want freedom so um so freedom is there you know um one of the pillars that um supports I think the human being and the the break of a good and new human beingin so in this case um and and and you see as long as we are going to be uh commenting on this chapter and the ideas that Jan deangeles brings to us um the first thing that

of a good and new human beingin so in this case um and and and you see as long as we are going to be uh commenting on this chapter and the ideas that Jan deangeles brings to us um the first thing that comes to mind is well I think I'm a I'm a shallow individual no you're not not alone this is one thing that you know she she makes a statement saying that you know very much all of us here now on planet Earth considering the state of evolvement that we find ourselves in relation to the spirit hierarchy we are still you know more in the phase of you know infancy going to pre per perhaps yeah teenagers some of us so we we are still much more worried and u m mized by things that can capture our attention can Dazzle us somehow yeah um and and this is what this shallow means and in this sense we go after you know uh what is in fashion right now what what is the world dictating I I mean I don't want to be different I suffer pure pressure right and um or even if I'm a shy person mean it means that if I you know dress and behave like somebody else like or like you know the majority of people I'm not going to call attention for myself so being myself and being different calls attention for me and I the attention in case I am a shy person and and and and then she comes with the an idealist Consciousness so it is the state where we are going to be reaching the more and reaching the more and more we evolve Spirit speaking she she she she puts it as a condition for us to achieve freedom and I think freedom is amazing so so so maybe before we start talking about what Freedom really is uh if we perhaps look into that notion of idealist Consciousness against the opposing ideas of that immediatism that she calls right that instant gratification that we all look and just I was just thinking that perhaps we could um remind ourselves of meslo right meslo hierarchy of needs starts at the very bottom which is what binds us all humans and animals right alike in Plants um if you think about the physiological

could um remind ourselves of meslo right meslo hierarchy of needs starts at the very bottom which is what binds us all humans and animals right alike in Plants um if you think about the physiological needs we need air we need food we need shelter well that's the safety needs I'm sorry the next level but once all those physiological needs are attended to we now push toward the next level according to maslo which is the idea of safety uh the idea of shelter right and the the the idea to me comes from an emotional perspective that uh I idea of a a family right a family that is there taking care of you during your um Early Childhood all the way to Young adulthood and the third of those five um um hierarchy items are is love and belonging which then leads you to develop your sense of selfesteem and self actualization and somehow J I keep thinking that we we are so needy and we we I call all of us right right now we we are as a biosocial animals right the the the animals that have a biological uh component that that really needs the physiological and safety needs but the social component of who we are is that that requires us to to to be part of a larger organization to to feel love to to have a sense of belonging but it's somehow and I would love for you to talk a little bit about it somehow we get stuck in in order for for me to be loved and to to be accepted to have a sense of belonging to a larger Community I now need to not be who I am right and I need to do this by seeming to be something else so when Joanna talks about being versus having as well as being versus seeming to be as two dichotomies that uh that really are impediments perhaps to our real sense of freedom because our real sense of Freedom based on what masel says would be to achieve the next level which is understanding and loving oneself uh achieving that sense of self-esteem and then self-actualization what are your thoughts on on why is it so hard for us to to really feel good about ourselves to love in our our elves

loving oneself uh achieving that sense of self-esteem and then self-actualization what are your thoughts on on why is it so hard for us to to really feel good about ourselves to love in our our elves and because we're not there yet we we get stuck in trying to be what we're not so that we are in a very perverted way somehow we are accepted and uh Joanna says not really right not really you you can do all that you want but no you you only be accepted when you become who you are but uh take it away just thought I thought this is a very interesting discussion here you see Mercia there are so many angles that we can explore in what just said for instance when you were talking about the mlo pyramid yeah right uh the way he he presented to us in this five stage of course uh first for us to cope with the bare necessities of life going up to what what would be you know this idealist conscientiousness being that angelist talks about it seems to me that we are you know including extra levels in the pyramid interesting yeah uh the way he envisage is like this the five steps but you know when we add something else but now that I I have this I think I need this as well right and then from that point on you need something else and it's like you know us postponing maturity our yeah right assuming responsibilities and what is responsibility when we are talking about you know the Mortal spirit right I I don't want to grow up I still wanted to be you know dealing with all the the fun the trivial things the MTH that I do with my life I I I still um want to delay me becoming of age spiritual age and so I think that be for this reason we are sabotaging the pyramid very good point yeah and um procrastinating at best right at best we're delaying or procrastinating achieving that self actualization or in in a more psychological term would be our individuation our process which is quite frankly that's the theme of the book the integral human being right is the idea that we have of you know things may not

a more psychological term would be our individuation our process which is quite frankly that's the theme of the book the integral human being right is the idea that we have of you know things may not be that good but um I am accommodated to this you know to the scenario already yeah why do I have to steer things up who guarantees me that you know things are going to get better or know we know that this since you mention individuation it is an indiv individual process and of course being an individual process means that when we grow when our interests shift to another side not necessarily our friends acquaintance acquaintances other people we will be interested in following us so it means peeling off a lot of things correct that maybe you know leing behind a lot of things it would be kind of you know when I have I think about moving to a different country um I'm still me I know that in a different country I will have experiences that will help me grow right and learn things that I didn't have in my old older Country in the other country but I will have to give up things that I had there you know friends family and Hobbies whatever I did there to go to a Strange Land to go to a strange level and and this is a frightening experience and it's a far far frightening experience for the individual as well although here is very clear and Jan d'angeles States this unless you track this path you will not find Freedom because you will be attached to things that are maintaining you where you are and it is when we say you said Mara like for instance that we we don't want uh you know to do to change ER I I I I'm even us it to my Persona now you know I don't even know who I am anymore because can we can we stop there because I think it's really interesting what you're saying right we number one we we identify ourselves with a created right it's an illusion really a created Persona to meet what we think everybody else expects of us so that's a illusion illusion but it's a creation of

mber one we we identify ourselves with a created right it's an illusion really a created Persona to meet what we think everybody else expects of us so that's a illusion illusion but it's a creation of our ego so that we we can function so what what you said is super cool because it's like why are we afraid do we really know what we need to do so I wanted to maybe break down this discussion if you don't mind you in two areas first is uh your metaphor about leaving uh to move to a different country love what you said right you expand your awareness of what it is to live uh if I talk about perhaps and this is just fiction but if I were to move say to a sub Sahara uh region in Africa my my needs will be very different than if I move to I don't know some Nordic uh region in Europe very different climate very different language very different needs of your body right but most of all we start to become ex expanding our awareness of our resilience our ability to live and adapt to the others but you said something very interesting uh if I may repeat which is we also give up a little bit of what we knew of ourselves and I just say this because uh another metaphor that I have heard before is um when we move to a different culture with a different language and a different set of uh I identities or cultural identities it's almost like we become voluntarily uh disabled right we cannot see anymore because we we cannot perhaps read the language or we cannot if we read the language we don't understand what it means right we become BL uh blind we we become uh deaf we we don't understand the language and we cannot even speak and be uh understood so it's a very weird way to to put to penalize oneself but in the process of doing this we become better because now we may be able to through the ordeal of going to a different culture different geography we become a to live in two areas but back to what you're saying that we we we identify ourselves with our personas could we perhaps Jada start to break down uh in

different culture different geography we become a to live in two areas but back to what you're saying that we we we identify ourselves with our personas could we perhaps Jada start to break down uh in in simple terms why not why is it so hard for us to to Deep dive into who we really are as an individual as a as a as uh our ego that creates our notion of ourselves and or even beyond that that ideal or idealist Consciousness that it's inside of all of us as Immortal Spirits right how can we Deep dive and the thoughts that come to my mind um and you may want to take it further or or discuss that Jada is can we start by very simply asking ourselves what is it that we want right what is what our goals what are our aspirations what do I want to accomplish my objectives in life how do I do that how do I maintain the sense of Integrity the sense of ethics and moral morality based on what I know and based in this limitation that I created by my my my birth my educational level my my cultural that I I am part of so it we we start to Maybe by doing that uh very very specifically diving deeper on who I am so that then we can start to free ourselves from the traps of uh our Persona right which is that illusion that uh that creation of our ego what are your thoughts again there is so much to be said in relation to that but one of the things is uh we may know what we want but since our ability of knowing and seeing things in our level of evolvement is still so restrict yes that um we we do not even know what to wish for there is a a phrase that was said by Oscar wild he said that when the gods wants to punish us they answer our prayers so that means we don't know what we want but like we said at the beginning some ideals that we have which is love and peace and freedom uh they they they we still may have a very myotic yeah yeah way of perceiving those things because for some people we love will mean lasting love companionship right to others it will be more related to the physical Sensations according to

ery myotic yeah yeah way of perceiving those things because for some people we love will mean lasting love companionship right to others it will be more related to the physical Sensations according to the level that we we are and um talking again because uh I I I think that since you explore a bit more the the example that I brought in terms of you know moving abroad I actually lived this experience you two I mean 30 years ago when I had to when I mov it from Brazil to London uh because of my my husband's job um we had to go to all this transformation so let's analyze here why would we voluntarily make this move if it is a hard one to do sure so it is not voluntary h i mean it's wonderful to go in vacation ations in other countries and know the C culture and all of that but you wanted to get back to the places that you are us it to that you have your your space that you have your people that you have your culture okay so moving to an a a different culture yeah uh it's especially if you're going to think that it's this is it it's it's going to be forever it has to happen in a way that you were pushed to do that so there there needs in this case it was in terms of the career I mean his career job Etc I mean he had to do that of course me could have not accept Etc but it was the right move to do and then this is exactly what what happened we arrived there none of my basically none of my clothes were adequate to the you know things that I had in my kitchen all of that I mean I went to the supermarket and and now what kind of soap is do I have to buy all of those things were so new I seeing a guy leaving the the supermarket with one banana and one orange and I said oh my God how poor is this guy that he can buy one in one at the prices I could understand but also the size of the fridge there was so small that you could not go further than that so you know there is a whole process but at the end it is one that I would recommend uh to everyone because once I was there I was h i mean I could be

so small that you could not go further than that so you know there is a whole process but at the end it is one that I would recommend uh to everyone because once I was there I was h i mean I could be myself interesting nobody knew me yeah I was a a blank slate to people there of course they you know labeled because I was a foreigner I was a Brazilian of course I I didn't speak with their accent H etc etc but I was a blank slate it was like you know I I didn't have to you know pretend or to live in a way that I had to live in certain places atmosphere so you don't need to you don't need to leave your country to do that you can you can simply go to another state where people do not know you and stay a bit there and surprise surprise it did happen to me I'm sure happen to you as well people like at me uhuh you know so um they liked J as J right not a a a a result of the entire environmental uh expectations that you had before you moved there I love that story I felt so much more freen yeah way as well because you know I I I didn't need to you know uh to uh dress worrying if I was going to pleasee my friends or the places that I I was going uh I I I could just be myself and at the same time I was learning so many things and then all those different cultures so I but then again like I said it was something that that was It was kind of forced yeah so I think we have to find things that will force us to go out of our comfort zone very good to realize that uh we can be who we are we can be loved and sometimes even more being who we are you are not necessarily because you know you have to to go according to how certain societies dictate it should be your behavior um I mean like here when Joanna DeAngelis says you know we go into this hectic preoccupation of acquiring you know object that will make me stand by if I have the the the newest iPhone or Samsung or whatever there I couldn't care less I mean if people were were going to look and see if I you know the the trappings right the

t will make me stand by if I have the the the newest iPhone or Samsung or whatever there I couldn't care less I mean if people were were going to look and see if I you know the the trappings right the trappings of uh what it is that identify us within our society be it be it uh in my case I even go uh beyond that J because with my age right I start to notice things that were just completely unaware but uh do I need to to to be stuck at a certain age group right adulthood but not maturity to be accepted and and and so there are things that we also see that are not actual material that I can hold it but it's our desire to be accepted by um I don't know uh cosmetic surgery and this is not a a critique of cosmetic surgery but it it is the Trap that wanting to do or Desiring or needing to do something such as cosmetic surgery so that I can be what I accepted versus Who I Am with all my wrinkles and all the Savages of old age start to do to my body right and and and I but I love what you're saying I don't need this latest mobile device or the latest uh I don't know uh uh designer uh fashion uh items or whatever to identify who I am because knowing who I am is the ultimate goal of what we should be looking for that just make sense yes and then what happens is that when you stop worrying about uh you know thingss yeah much you have more time to think about what really matters which is you yeah and I mean and then you will find yourself saying hey my happiness does not depend on me having you know this or that item or being or not accepted in in this or this or that group of uh you know friends or have more or less wrinkles H it it's and and so I I think it gives you so much Freedom yeah which is what Jan deangel is talking about you know WIS slave ourselves so much like you know oh I have to work because I have to you know to be prepared for the future I have have a nice a nice uh a nice house and uh everything but then when you get there it is not enough because now the hous is

I have to work because I have to you know to be prepared for the future I have have a nice a nice uh a nice house and uh everything but then when you get there it is not enough because now the hous is small and need a little bit more space and now you know one of the children that was supposed to be independent already is not and you have to go and deal with that and then you know it's a NeverEnding Story if you just think about those values and this is when she's telling us free yourself from that me not meaning be careless it's not about that it's not about me not worrying how am I going to present myself to you you know or not worrying with uh um being safe for the elderly ages or no but it's see is seeing so much more and and having the notion that is a very prolonged process the thing is in order for us to do that we have to go through the nor narrow door that Jesus said yeah we had to we have to peel off some layers that are un necessary and this process hurts we are still hoarders of you know the material life we are yeah and and the process uh you know uh for to substitute vies for virtues to go into the vertical line versus keeping ourselves on the horizontal line is a hard one but not impossible can I can I add something else because U you you mention your your reference uh the Bible right the biblical passage where Jesus mentions that we we should take on the narrow uh passage and and I think um if I go back to some of the concepts that Joanna spoke or wrote in this book I I I love what she says that uh number one right so we're talking about uh not being shallow in in in the perspective of in order for us not to be shall we need to move away from this very material right very material uh life which is a life where we're not consciously aware of all that we can be so uh but one of the things that she says that I I I thought was quite interesting is the fact that well uh you cannot just flip the imaginary switch and say okay I'm going to be free now and and I love when she says that

things that she says that I I I thought was quite interesting is the fact that well uh you cannot just flip the imaginary switch and say okay I'm going to be free now and and I love when she says that right we cannot just change who you are and and then she says also also you cannot inherit your freedom from past generations mean the work that Jos you're talking about this hardness this labor this this needed patience with yourself which is to work to to to achieve uh the depth of understanding of we are is something that it takes time it takes effort it takes sometimes a um uh actually uh awareness and and hardness to to accept uh to receive feedback and crique from ourselves and from all of those around us so then we can start to see peel away all the identifi our own personas that we become identified with right and and and she says we can only do this with a dose of patience a dose of trust in the process a dose of that disciplined perseverance to to keep looking at it not from a 10year cycle or even a 30-year cycle or a whole lifetime but as a set of lifetimes that we are part of as Immortal Souls right so it's it's all about a a gradual Ascent toward who we truly are and by accepting knowing and accepting who we truly are then we can access this Freedom that you referenc right from the beginning J when we said we're all looking for Love Peace and Freedom right I I I think it's very important and back to back to to to to the teachings of uh Jesus right we we are confronted with th this idea of the golden rule of loving our neighbor as we love our elves in the notion that uh do we even know what that means can we love ourselves so that we are able to love our neighbor right what are your thoughts just saying from Jesus that I love it as well that talks about truth that he says know the truth and truth will set you three very good very right yeah and I always say you know knowing the truth is not worrying about what is happening on on other people's lives is not being worried about you

uth and truth will set you three very good very right yeah and I always say you know knowing the truth is not worrying about what is happening on on other people's lives is not being worried about you know occurrences that have nothing to do with you but KN the truth of yourself yeah to examine yourself who am I and I mean I'm talking to myself there should not be the need for us to try to deceive ourselves and uh and having said that it doesn't mean that if we what we see is not yet what we would like to be it doesn't matter we will be getting there the first the first thing for us to accomplish that is actually the the self-realization to understand what is what is going on I'm not going to change anything that I'm not identifying as needing to be the change but he also said that I am the path to truth and life so the path meaning my examples the way I lived my life the way like we saw that he was not a hypocrite when he was talking to you know uh to the Pharisees and he he didn't change his way to please this or that crowd and he he had to face many he had to face the Jews that accepted him the Jews hated him the the Gentiles that um thought that he was a burden in their ways because we're we're you know reducing their Idols to just a piece of dust the Gentiles that did not wanted to have anything with any kind of religious so he was always himself right and and and he was always through to his mission and to the understanding of what one has to do so I I I think that that question that you asked Marcia um in terms of um what should we do what path should we take is exactly related to to that to that we have to be truth to our ideals absolutely yeah is still the ideals of uh CH spiritual children but those are the steps that are going to be taking us each time more to higher and higher aspirations that will finally lead us to feel what you know the a perfect state of freedom of realization of gratitude fulfillment as deangel so often use uh yes we are still shallow individuals but it doesn't mean

at will finally lead us to feel what you know the a perfect state of freedom of realization of gratitude fulfillment as deangel so often use uh yes we are still shallow individuals but it doesn't mean that we have to be there yes we do not inherit um virtues we have to work for them but we can be placed in environments in situations where we will find enough resources to help us in this journey absolutely yeah we are doing here now if you're listening to us of course you will you know start thinking about it and and so it is a tool that is put it in our way to help us in this process so you we have to go alone but we can have a lot of help in the process we just have to have eyes to see love it love it J so I think I would like to to perhaps conclude bringing uh uh more of all this discussion into a couple of thoughts is first of all right the the need and the ability to love ourselves actually is the the mechanism that will lead us to a a higher level of of life right and and when we did this we actually Reach This ability to to to to become a a idealist from a Consciousness perspective and because we are now no longer a shallow individual we are able to rip the mask right unveil the mask that we perhaps and I say perhaps perhaps because I don't know but perhaps we are carrying a mask that is a mask that betrays I'm very sorry to say but betrays a meaningless existence right that meaningless existence perhaps Jada and I I talked about this before this is something that is very close to home which is the the the the traps of for example workaholism right where we go from one goal to another and we keep trying to to to look at life from a very tactical very uh transactional one thing after the other instead of looking at from a very broad perspective and and looking at all the the the the choices and the freedom that are given to us but the choice should always from a moral compass perspective should always look for our true north which is beauty which is Humanity which

the the the the choices and the freedom that are given to us but the choice should always from a moral compass perspective should always look for our true north which is beauty which is Humanity which is love so from that perspective perhaps our Legacy not what we inherited from our parents but our own legacy is to to to walk that path in which every footstep will be a footstep that will carry lightness and will carry depth and will it will bring us peace and will be bring us that that ultimate freedom to be who we are so the invitation here is for all of us you and me all of us uh for us to to to to remove the masks and even if we say I can't and I need to wear this when I am in situation X or or Z but let's look at it from a perspective that it we we should not identify ourselves with those masks because they're Just an Illusion they are often created to meet the appearances for that social convention that is not required we should not have to go to AB to be able to be who we are right and I'm so glad you went J but let us think about what amazing achievement it is for us to be who we truly are as we are in all of our humanity and by doing this we're able to open ourselves for that expanded Consciousness that's a lot any final thoughts just before we say goodbye to our friends today I think that today we have so much homework guys we have so much food for thought and uh but it's uh amazing that we are open to bring all those topics out and uh have this you know guidance by this um great benefactor that isana the Angeles and all the understanding and knowledge that we have in Psychology already and and and finally we can understand ourselves and know ourselves and um and not just go with the hustle bustle of life but you know be mindful and uh we are all children of God and there are no children of God God that is not absolutely gorgeous you know I love it it yes anyways I hope you have enjoyed our talk today thank you J for being with me I I I think this is quite

od and there are no children of God God that is not absolutely gorgeous you know I love it it yes anyways I hope you have enjoyed our talk today thank you J for being with me I I I think this is quite interesting for all of us to to ponder and if you have a chance when the book is published uh get a get a copy of this amazing book the integral human being by Joanna d'angeles in close collaboration with dealdo per Franco but with that I want to say goodbye and thank you everyone for being here with us today thank you