Ep 72 - Pain and Suffering

hi everyone welcome to the psychology and spirituality a bridge to Better Life discussion I'm your host Marc tanu and with me are Dr Ana fona and Jus corn go it is indeed so good to have you back with this conversation today we're going to have a very for me quite difficult topic about pain and suffering so I just want us to see how we can break down this topic through the vein of psychology and spirituality but for those of you who are coming to this uh episode and this is your first time please note that our program the psychology and spirituality weekly talks are based on the works by Joanna deangelus they offer safe space for us to do exactly what we're doing today confront compare correlate and even expand Concepts from theological lens so that you and I all of us can access maybe some insights some actionable tips and real world advice to help us through our lives please note that our program is sponsored by Ami Brazil man the international spirs Council and United States spiritist Federation make sure you hit subscribe if you haven't already done so we'd love to hear from you so write down your notes your questions your feedback would love to see that but here we are uh hello an hello J and uh I I wanted to say that uh this topic is quite unsettling to me and I was trying to see how to even approach it right but uh there's a song that came to my mind and uh in that song and I I I'm going to to maybe perhaps ask you Jus to to maybe speak about it because it may open the space for our discussion right I don't know if you know uh Coldplay Coldplay is a British rock band from London and in the I believe n eight late 1990s they they did beautiful songs and they have one that is quite the one that can get stuck in your mind right it starts with I used to rule the world forgive for my awful voice but I wanted to there was a there's a one um part of the lyrics of the song that I wanted perhaps I just s for you to talk about it and it's very deep because in there they sing one minute I held the

but I wanted to there was a there's a one um part of the lyrics of the song that I wanted perhaps I just s for you to talk about it and it's very deep because in there they sing one minute I held the key next the walls were closed on me and I discovered that my castle stand upon pillars of salt and pillars of sand that is quite quite difficult for us to even start to listen to the story of us being on the top of the world whatever is your role and losing it all just s can you speak to that uh if you don't mind sure of course you know everything that we are going to be talking about the song now is our interpretation because we cannot say for sure what the author was actually thinking about when he wrote that but of course you know when you use words and uh and there is this very subjective way of each one of us hearing or or reading the words it's a different thing so depending on the angle that we are going to be going of course that might may have a different perspective so we can even start with uh the since you read this paragraph we can even talk about the the title of the song Viva La right right what exactly what kind of VI life is she talking about here but you know what kind of Celebration or is he saying that that was his way of conducting his life you know just uh going easy about things like he says here one minute I held the key so I'm there you know living the life and celebrating the Life As We Understand from the material perspective and only to later realize that he had the key but he couldn't open the doors and the castles that he thought belonged to him uh were actually buil uh built upon pillars of salt and so in in my perspective you know bringing this to the subject that we are studying today pain and suffering I would say that uh this would be exactly the reason why we go through pain and suffering because you know in this common expression here you put all your chips in one place and I mean yes you you go with the illusion and not necessarily

ctly the reason why we go through pain and suffering because you know in this common expression here you put all your chips in one place and I mean yes you you go with the illusion and not necessarily you are you know doing what is right so like here you know symbolic he's saying you know I held the key but I thought I had castles now I don't have a house I don't have where to you know to be a a and and I think that from this perspective you know um of how we we lose track uh or or do not want to get the knowledge to know that we are so much more than just what it strikes the eyes is what will bring us those frustrations disappointments that I I thought I I was sure that I was doing you know a good thing and all of a sudden you know like sometimes we hear um of people you know thinking oh I'm sure that I'm going to heaven because with all the charity that I'm doing but when you look Loosely are you sure about it so I I would start uh with that and maybe an can bring more contribution yeah and and I love an before you get in because I'd love to hear from you A View From A your background as a y y analyst of what does it mean right a pain and suffering from a medical perspective perhaps but uh to me it it it what you brought here um J is the the premise that we don't die right but we live as if we did and I say well yeah we die we die we all die from a physical death but we don't die from our spiritual Immortal Life therefore uh the question of impermanence or the inability to control life it is leading to a lot of suffering a lot of pain I would say um it's staggering the statistics on how many especially the younger generation I'm saying that because I'm not so young anymore but that that younger Generations are suffering from anxiety and anxiety is just that right it's the inability to have a sense of peace uh because you cannot control the outcome of today therefore that uh that suffering that uh you alluded to through the the the code playay lyrics of this beautiful song by the way it stuck in my

peace uh because you cannot control the outcome of today therefore that uh that suffering that uh you alluded to through the the the code playay lyrics of this beautiful song by the way it stuck in my mind by the way um it it it it brings to to us this this this question of impermanence but uh Anna can you maybe Define what is the difference between pain and suffering from your perspective number one and number number two is why do we have to suffer okay so first of all it's a pleasure to be here again with you and to um you know with everybody who is listening to this podcast like talk and of course as a psychiatrist and also a young analyst um so the MDS are always worried about pain and trying to you know with medication diagnosis trying to heal people right but one thing that our medicine that is based in evidence we say nowadays but I always um keep telling my colleagues that which evidence are we looking at for instance spirituality and uh and religion and spirituality but religion in a sense of a practice that um helps people to connect to the Transcendent uh whoever or however and whatever people conceive as the transcendant as a Transcendence or let's say God but um especially spirituality that it's um the the search Yung says the search for meaning and purpose and also the the research uh they show in Psychiatry and and medicine that um people that look search for meaning and purpose in life so we could say as J says that develop spirituality because spirituality for Yung was the search for meaning right and purpose so people who do that and develop their own spirituality uh they are healthier and they suffer less and when they uh for instance they get ill uh so we could say to start thinking about this that um for us many times the um in medicine and Health Care pain would be related to physical pain pain or mental pain emotional pain that can cause physical also distress and Ill illnesses so okay so we don't want people feeling pain and people come to

h Care pain would be related to physical pain pain or mental pain emotional pain that can cause physical also distress and Ill illnesses so okay so we don't want people feeling pain and people come to us like relieve my pain please but what happens is that uh if we just give people medicine for inst if we don't listen to people if we don't have a brother uh you know we we say we are using this holistic view right a broader view of the person because we are so complex and we are getting to Joanna gangel beautiful teachings so we are so complex we have the physical body we have the the mind the emotions our thoughts um that are the mind is kind of related to the brain but it's it's not necessarily dependent upon and we have our spirit we have our soul our psych right and the so the manifestation of the spirit here in this life let's say so okay we we are going to feel pain as jna Jan says it's like it's from this life to be in the in a body of Flesh and to have to adapt to this material world we are going to feel um physical pain decaying of the physical for instance of our organs um it's um it's unavoidable as you say so we are going to feel pain uh physical at some point in our lives at least we are going to feel emotional pain uh because we are going to be uh in relation ships we are going to feel hurt we are going to hurt others it's part of our learning right we cannot avoid pain but we can learn with pain we can listen to the pain we can try to understand the pain the Jan is asking us to do that uh and we can then um get to know ourselves a little better and because we are kept captain of our own ships right so we are not um you know oh I need some medication I need someone to you know to heal my pain because we can do that at some point we have we need a medical doctor yes yes please no no go ahead and finish I was just gonna add something but go ahead sorry for the interruption okay no problem so and also the emotional pain Yung says that there is no birth of

octor yes yes please no no go ahead and finish I was just gonna add something but go ahead sorry for the interruption okay no problem so and also the emotional pain Yung says that there is no birth of Consciousness without pain because then he's talking about a pain that is the result of a conflict an inner conflict so uh Janna is always um trying to show us the importance of self-analysis of self-discovery of understanding ourselves better better understanding ourselves so we have to do this in a physical um way we have to for instance even in high school I think Elementary School probably uh we are learning about our bodies right it's very important we need to know ourselves we need um like to know how to feed ourselves with good uh nutritious um food things like that we have have to sleep better people are not sleeping very well these days we have to exercise everything that we know nowadays that will help our bodies to be health or even if there's an imbalance to heal our bodies and we have to pay attention to our emotions and thoughts the way that we are relating to each other and we also have to pay attention to the way that my my Consciousness here um is relating to the world right then we we come to the Cod play how am I living my life laida right how am I living my life so I would say that pain is unavoidable I totally agree uh with J jeles um but and we of course we don't need to feel pain like she says in other religions from the past that it was kind of cool we could say to feel pain to suffer uh because then we were um people thought like Medieval Times the Dark Ages that they were controlling instincts and it's so silly because then we are just causing ourselves suffering uh and illnesses right so we nowadays we know all of that that we have to take care of ourselves we have to take care of our mental health that it's really nice that everybody's talking about this these days so we can go deeper and try um not to fall in the Trap h of the character of this lyric as just was saying that we

ur mental health that it's really nice that everybody's talking about this these days so we can go deeper and try um not to fall in the Trap h of the character of this lyric as just was saying that we can just guess but I if we are holding the key so I think I'm like the king of the world and I want to be like this or that person and have this and that material stuff and um Youth and whatever anything that makes me powerful it and in a certain way for the ego it's like cheating uh death or you know even life I can control life and it's so silly we cannot control life we cannot this is just you know our immature egos thinking that we have we have the key if we are you know rich or young or beautiful or this and that because the walls are going to close on us like the song um and I would say like um death I totally agree with you because it's certain we are going but death like a portal okay okay then like in the spiritist knowledge we know that it's just a passage to another let's say to the the life of the spirit and then everything that was so uh so certain for me my body my material stuff my my titles my youth or whatever suddenly the walls closed on me and I disc over that my castles stand stand upon pillars of salt and sand so they were nothing they were gone uh so I would say that pain I totally agree with youung also that uh it this is a birth of Consciousness this person this character of course when he discovers or she that um her or his castle stand upon pillars of uh sand right they let they had the the castles had to be left behind because we are not taking material stuff with us to the spiritual Dimensions so of course then we have the Suffering The Suffering of the soul that kind of lost time lost opportunities to grow to evolve right to be healthier to and so I just wanted to tell you that I love this sentence by Joanna that she says suffering therefore since we are all talking and thinking about that can and should be considered a disease of the Soul which still clings to Sensations

at I love this sentence by Joanna that she says suffering therefore since we are all talking and thinking about that can and should be considered a disease of the Soul which still clings to Sensations favoring paths and actions that produce imbalance so if I cling and I hold this is mine this key is mine I'm king of the world right um well I'm king of this world for how long how many minutes considering comparing to Eternity and of course I'm building suffering for myself I think that this is what Janna is asking us to pay attention we don't need to suffer maybe because of this life is unavoidable as she says we are going to feel pain but suffering is totally different suffering according to Jana is a disease of the soul and our soul doesn't have to get sick let's say we can um we can and we are in the process of evolving of achieving an expanded Consciousness so we don't need you know to pay so much so much attention to everything that the ego wants because the ego is living an illusion in a certain way because it's very concrete and it's very cool that we are here in this schol let's say people are talking a lot of of about simulation it's a simulation for the spirit let's say but for the ego it's it's a reality it's our reality right here a reality uh of learning a school of learning as a spiritist knowledge say but for our high self um okay of course it's an illusion like okay it's a learning that I'm agreed that I'm going to uh for some time and then I'll go back um stronger uh more wiser things like that but I will provoke a little bit J because I want so much her to talk there's another sentence but of course um Amar said I thought you wanted to tell me something also yeah I wanted to and we can talk about uh after J speaks to to your question now but before we we end our conversation and forgive me I'm losing my voice I wanted to bring another aspect but go ahead justad if you don't mind okay so I have to ask the question it's another sentence of the lyrics

we end our conversation and forgive me I'm losing my voice I wanted to bring another aspect but go ahead justad if you don't mind okay so I have to ask the question it's another sentence of the lyrics which one what do you think of this one I know St Peter won't call my name never an honest word but that was when I ruled the world yeah that's that's so fantastic I mean again going in this uh line of thinking that we are you know using our imagination to to interpret right using the words and and there is one that he says now the old king is dead and long live the king me I mean and it goes all together you know when he says I used to rule the world being the king and and being uh in control or of everything that I thought were you know sturdy things things that would be you know giving me support and that I could always count on it but now I'm dead and people were saying long live the king like you know and open the way for a new one new ruler to come right used to rule that there is always someone that is going to replace you so I I I I I think that that there is this uh conscience and understanding that uh now with a different kind of vision and Clear Vision how you know in the way it it used s Peter as meaning you know it the the way we understand the way we have been brought up uh many of us in religion or you know from the past whatever that St Peter is the one that holds the keys to heaven right to you did good come on in right now there is the realization that I did very well I VI and physical world but now from the spiritual aspect or perspective you know my emotions um they are not in tune with what follows and this is what brings suffering I think to me suffering is totally related to emotions to the you know the emotions of the spirit because even when you are are in pain a physical pain or are suffering any other kind of pain but um if you are centered right uh if you have values uh you will go through that in a an easier way than others that have different values in life so I can

in or are suffering any other kind of pain but um if you are centered right uh if you have values uh you will go through that in a an easier way than others that have different values in life so I can aggravate My Pain by exacerbating my ego and thinking that because I I do not deserve those things I deserve things totally different this is a completely unfair or you know this is the result of other people's faults and and never assuming the responsibility for anything this is when you know suffering is really going to get us harder and as a consequence pain because until I realize that there is so much more to life and celebrating life as an immortal soul I will leave a lot of room for you know uh ripping the consequences of my actions absolutely I I appreciate your um review of the song right and one of the things that come to my mind uh two couple of things but the first one was in many philosophies we correlate um pain and suffering with being a bad person right so you see in literature we see in in in music in movies where those that are truly good and this is uh almost mythological they don't actually suffer and yet somebody like Joseph Campbell brings to us from his beautiful theological iCal review right and mythological that the hero in its heroic Quest never comes out unscathed right and and it's beautiful this idea that for us to to go through life and to achieve new plateau of evolution be it in this life uh in a material perspective or in our eternal life our spiritual lives we really need to to have the courage to keep keep at it and uh build some resilience so that those things that come at us it's okay it's part of the quest to become better but the other thought if you don't mind is um boy this this conversation is bringing me all over the place so before we lose the track last week I was listening to to you know a podcast that was talking about you know yung's spiritual perspective and spee and of course Dr Anna is the expert here but there was one thing that and

track last week I was listening to to you know a podcast that was talking about you know yung's spiritual perspective and spee and of course Dr Anna is the expert here but there was one thing that and since you're talking about hero uh like you know in the vision of Yung please tell me if this is right okay and I uh young Jesus was the perfect hero and of course n would never accept that and when you said you know the hero never goes un skated I mean not even Jesus perfect hero when without without going to pain not extreme but extreme pain right not suffering because then he was centered balanced but definitely pain because he had a physical body so go ahead no this is awesome thank you for for connecting that yeah is that correct the idea of you know Jesus being the the hero in yung's perspective yeah and back to go ahead an please we could say um because um for you like um yes we could say in a sense his life shows the hero myth yeah and we have to understand that Yung says uh one thing for instance meaning many things like the concept yung's concept of the self capital s that is the center of the psych but at the same time is the totality of the psych so he uses um you know it's a a little confusing for people and we take a lot of time to understand because he's not uh he's seeing a lot of things even his concept of the self that we call a higher self for instance not the ego right but also the center of uh the psych and the totality uh okay so because uh for instance um we can use the self capital S as synonym of imod like the image of God that we have inside of us so it's like the Jesus the same thing in a sense because you can understand uh his uh his journey as the hero myth of when because Jesus comes as a man but when he connects to the Christ Consciousness then he's Jesus the Christ and then he is a a whole you know in a whole the father and I are one in a sense that he connect Ed to the source with god with the Christ Consciousness uh then we can use this as

e's Jesus the Christ and then he is a a whole you know in a whole the father and I are one in a sense that he connect Ed to the source with god with the Christ Consciousness uh then we can use this as the the hero myth myth is the myth of the birth of Consciousness and um the struggle of the ego to uh get to a point of a higher consciousness of individuation of being um uh more whole in this world you know and individuate um like Express the totality of your soul as much as you can we can look at this uh like this but at the same time the Christ is um is an example for you in psychological terms psychological terms and symbolic okay totally symbolic of the higher Consciousness the Christ okay so it could be the same thing I as I understand people can have different approaches but uh if we talk about the hero's myth the birth of Consciousness the struggle of the ego to connect with the higher self in a sense uh the ego um self access that we say this conversation between the ego and the self and struggling for individuation for the our Consciousness to expand in a sense getting closer with the unconscious aspects to you know to be more whole to be um like to our so that our psych our souls can express and have a balance between all our dualities we say integrate as much as possible our dualities so this would be the Journey of the hero right um but then the Christ would be uh our let's say as much as we can the this sparkle of uh the god of gods that we have within us and that Joanna says that it's Yung self capital S is our um our spirit so when we think about the spirit our higher spirit is so beautiful because we we understand what Jesus uh was telling uh us that everything that he did we could achieve also we could do what we thought as Miracles because of our spiritual ignorance was all his wisdom and all his connection to Christ Consciousness with God that simply here was expressed in a beautiful way in his journey uh that seemed like Miracles I can imagine myself up to this day

all his wisdom and all his connection to Christ Consciousness with God that simply here was expressed in a beautiful way in his journey uh that seemed like Miracles I can imagine myself up to this day sometimes we okay we have quantum physics and things like that but wow healing someone just by touching just by um talking to the person just by um you know um embracing the person person uh of course he was healing deeply in uh even with physics that we don't understand uh how we hardly understand a little bit of concepts of physic quantum physics and we don't know how to join uh with mechanics physics and all this stuff people are still the physicist are still searching a Theory of Everything imagine that we want to explain everything yes go ahead keep trying people 2,000 years we keep trying to understand what Jesus told us but it's it's cool because we need to keep trying we need to face our fears our shadows that um that is something really uh cool that um J talked about uh and Marca also about Jo joose Jo Campbell right and mythologist Great American mythologist and that talks about the heroes meth our struggle to develop Consciousness and to be more whole here to express our soul the and also to be in contact with our personal myth our our sacred story what are we doing here uh and and to find that's why we say that young psychology death psychology because it's death it goes to the depths of the psych and where the story of our um Evolution as Spirits so the story of our soul here what are we doing here so I think this is um it's wonderful that you talked about that because I it in the introduction of plitudes the book that we are talking using today beautiful beautiful book by Jonah dangeles she says that the spirit needs to polish the edges that hide his light isn't that beautiful uh and and I just I was reading again and said okay we need as Spirits we are here learning to polish the edges that hide our lights right inner lights and then it came to me the concept of the

utiful uh and and I just I was reading again and said okay we need as Spirits we are here learning to polish the edges that hide our lights right inner lights and then it came to me the concept of the Shadow and when we are talking about suffering and pain and when we Face our shadows that ego is always going to feel pain emotional pain I don't want I was you know I was I was with my key you know I was the ruler of the world as just had I said that I was the king and next minute I'm nothing so I had all this power right and I was people were were envious of me right because I was the king I had all this power power but what was in my shadow what was there lying there that I couldn't see and that I knew that s Peter wouldn't call my name because exactly as j s said well I achieved a lot of things in this material world but for some Peter to call my name what is my achievement in for my spirit for my soul what have I learned right what I'm clinging to that I it's um like U making my journey harder not in the physical sense maybe but in the spiritual sense so so when Jonah says the spirit needs to polish the edges that hide his light um okay we have to get in contact with our shadows to so that we are polishing this our edges right our shadows and she says and for that reason um suffering is a normal occurrence which knowledge and willpower can direct in a a balanced way so that suffering can fulfill his uh its Sublime purpose isn't that beautiful yeah can I can I just add a couple of things that are popping in my mind because this is beautiful number one if you were to kind of uh uh connect the dots right the first thing is um pain is part of evolution right it's part of our evolving spirit uh it's found everywhere it's found and that's what I wanted to to perhaps if if I may um bring the amazing Lebanese poet uh uh K jibran right his words on pain is really speak to me because he says your praying your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding

may um bring the amazing Lebanese poet uh uh K jibran right his words on pain is really speak to me because he says your praying your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding wow I love and he keeps going it's beautiful even as the stone of the fruit must break that its heart May stand in the Sun so must you know pain and could you keep your heart in Wonder at the daily miracles of your life your pain would not seem less wondrous than your joy and you would accept the seasons of your heart even as you have always accept the seasons that pass over the fields and you would watch with Serenity through the winters of your grief and I see that basically jusa going back to Cold Play with a loss the sense of loss and then he closes with what you were saying just now uh anay right as as the the the the suffering is really part of our decisions but KH Jabron says much of your pain is self-chosen right it is the bitter potion by which the physici within your within you heals your sick self therefore trust a physician drink this remedy in silence and Tranquility for his hand though heavy and hard is Guided by the tender hand of the Unseen and the cup he brings though it burns your lips has been fashion of the clay which the Potter capital P has moisten with his Capital H own sacred tears and I just see my goodness what an inspiring words that he brings to us in if we think again connecting the dots right Pain part of evolution just like KH Jabron speaks here but suffering really reflects our psychological and spiritual maturity because it really correlates on how we see right how we we interpret perhaps the pain and it really uh is it references the our existential our existential um behavior and and uh uh the words that come to my mind are really resilience right do I have I um created and uh developed resilience through all that I have to go through and then it goes back to what you you're talking about the individuation right Jesus as the um the

lience right do I have I um created and uh developed resilience through all that I have to go through and then it goes back to what you you're talking about the individuation right Jesus as the um the ultimate hero um and and how we can see that through the Journey and Jesus was already there by the way but how in that uh that Journey that we too one day will be Christlike right we need to understand no longer our Duality within but to look at our shadows as you put it so beautifully uh Dr n um and uh we bring toward that individuation that integration of who we are that includes and this is the last thing that comes to my mind um a book that uh really I read when I was young kid and it completely I would have nightmares with this so that's the the the the Portrait of Dorian Gray right where uh Dorian Gray he creates right he creates this other self where the portrait kept all the pain all the suffering everything the aging and he kept pure if you will and and that is it can be or interpret as the shadow is the portrait right the shadow contains everything that you reject and yet life the Hero Journey is one that is beautiful and that will contain pain right but we need to celebrate it with love and uh with this uh sense of wonder which is I I am not going to live a life that is of suffering because I am going to uh put give a new meaning to suffering which is this is what I have to do like Kalia Jon said right it's the shell that I must break because that shell contained enclos my understanding my clarity of what ultimately I need to go through in life it's beautiful beautiful um and I'm really glad that you um you mentioned I love I used to read when I was a teenager uh and um and I want to tell you an example personal example because nowadays the city that I am here in Brazil it's in the very south of Brazil is suffering a lot with floods a lot of water and um the water is bringing a lot of um of course um uh unclean things yeah as usually happens and um possibility of disease and it's the the

h of Brazil is suffering a lot with floods a lot of water and um the water is bringing a lot of um of course um uh unclean things yeah as usually happens and um possibility of disease and it's the the whole of the state is suffering with that and one of the things since we're talking about suffering is that um The Suffering will depend on the way that we look exactly as you said K BR was talking about the way that we look of course we're going to suffer to lose things and to be afraid because the ego is always afraid and is in connection with the material world but if we try to understand that for instance uh we are talking about water in this example that I'm leaving so the water in all the main religions all the main religions it's a a symbol of purification clean cleaness um rebirth okay so if I look to the waters afraid afraid of death because people are always afraid of that and it's so beautiful that uh we have the spiritist knowledge that nobody dies this is an illusion we just you know go through a portal and um if we struggle as J jel is saying willpower and uh increase our knowledge uh then it's so beautiful this moment of traveling back to our original Dimension the dimension of the spirit um I always remember a ship arriving not leaving but arriving and everybody in the port really happy wow here she comes or he comes again and look at all that um he or she has learned and um the light that is shining brighter we are talking about J was talking about polishing our edges light so that our light can uh shine brighter so the thing is that if we do this um coming back right and um and understand that um if I can look at the waters and don't be afraid and see the waters um make helping us right to expand our Consciousness helping us to clean our shadows helping us not to cling to material things and to find the value of ourselves you know I am what I am in my spirit in not only what I'm here now okay now okay dror and I but who knows yesterday I was whatever

us not to cling to material things and to find the value of ourselves you know I am what I am in my spirit in not only what I'm here now okay now okay dror and I but who knows yesterday I was whatever and tomorrow I will be whatever else you know who so somebody else and um whatever I will be for considering the need of my spirit to learn different experiences so if I look at the waters the water fertiliz and always after a storm the sun is shining always because the sun is always shining is only you know the clouds and the rain that can uh makes us here from down below but I'm here down below and my higher self my spirit maybe we know that in sleeping uh we are far away for instance so if I train my vision to look uh you know in an expanded view in a more spiritual view then maybe I'm not going to suffer so much and maybe I will see all the love the helping the coming together that all um you know difficult situations when we are in a collective that is suffering for um whatever reason um usually uh we are going to have people that are going unexpectedly is going to uh give you some help give you love from you know you were not expecting the least you you were at least expecting so this is the spiritual value that comes in this really sad moment for our egos you know but um if we can try to find uh this more and struggle having the willpower as Joanna says to expand our conscience and our Vision then I'm sure we are going to get there and St Peter will call our names absolutely absolutely we are at the end of our time we will continue in a couple additional episodes this discussion on suffering I just wanted to bring to everybody's uh attention Dr anona lives in the southernmost state of Brazil hugu and if you have not seen that the news but late April through uh most of May um that State uh went through an inordinate amount of rainfalls that flooded pretty much the entire State even outside of it in the neighboring country of uguay some of the Cities so um it is with an incredible uh sense of

through an inordinate amount of rainfalls that flooded pretty much the entire State even outside of it in the neighboring country of uguay some of the Cities so um it is with an incredible uh sense of gratitude that I we have you here with us uh Dr na especially uh the effect of all the disruptions that are going on I also wanted to call out that Jada was the Mind behind an event to to help with a number of individuals uh to to bring light to that um that uh tragedy right that we're seeing the uh nature coming in and somehow uh becoming nonsensical in in its fear you know this this tremendous catastrophic power but with that I just want to say we will continue our discussion we are at time and uh wanted to say thank you both thank you J I don't know if you want to give a a final words before we say goodbye actually you know I I'm just I'm just reflecting about everything that was said and the only thing that I was thinking is that sometimes you know people may say why do you talk so much about suffering it's because there are so much suffering around us there is so much pain and perhaps with you we can we can be together and we can share that and you will will see that it visits each and every one of us and and try to understand why we go through all those process we can bring some comfort we can put some balm in your your souls in your hearts and I think this is the main reason why we we we really bring this topic although we understand that it's it's quite hard it's quite hard to talk about it and and to to hear about it to listen about to to this topic as well but it's so necessary thank you so much thank you an thank you Marcia all right with that I want to say we'll see you next time when we continue um with this topics thanks everyone and see you next week byebye