Ep 65 - Spiritual Approaches to Suffering

hi everyone welcome to the psychology and spirituality a bridge to a better life discussion I'm your host Marcia trano and with me are three amazing guests I'm here with our special guest Dr L Corbett and Dr Na fona and Jada corod if this is the first time you're watching this podcast like program please knowe that our program the psychology and spirituality weekly talks are based on the works by Joanna the Angeles and they offer a safe space to confront compare correlate and expand spirituality Concepts from a psychologic lens bringing perhaps insights tips real world advice to help you and me lead a better life I'm so excited to be here today Professor Corbett Dr naada I would like for you to share your point of view in a informal conversation around a big topic human suffering and perhaps some highlight on spiritual approaches to how we address them before we start our conversation in Earnest I would like to recognize the organizations that are sponsoring this program Manel cinu the United State Spirits Federation the international uh spirs Council and Ami Brazil make sure you hit subscribe if you haven't already done so and if You' like to check out uh oh some other channels please do so by going to www.sirius.com s if you have any questions please write them down we love to address them at a later episode Dr Corbett I just want to tell you I loved reading your book Soul in English where you provided some insightful examination on suffering and its effects for example on our personality I want to thank you first and foremost I want to invite all of you who are here in the audience to read the book as well but right at the beginning in the introduction you you mention that perhaps the suffering is unique to the individual and there is no objective way of view human suffering and that uh we make sense of the world in a way that takes our suffering into account lots to unpack there but I thought uh we could start our conversation today with that would you would you mind commenting on

h we make sense of the world in a way that takes our suffering into account lots to unpack there but I thought uh we could start our conversation today with that would you would you mind commenting on that yes um I was trying to make the point that suffering is inevitable all human beings suffer and broadly speaking we can take two points of view we can say well this is just the tragic side of life it just is the way life is or we can say that there is some kind of uh intelligent background to what happens to us and in that case some kind of spiritual or philosophical approach to suffering is very helpful some kind of framework uh which will give us a perspective on suffering those are the really the two broad points of view um I don't know where you'd like to pick up on on that do you want to FOC on the on the spiritual dimension of it um I just thought we could start with that conversation and and perhaps um uh if if we can think about it right uh suffering is unique and and and there's the framework that we need to to perhaps uh structure how we view our own suffering but um before we we move on to anything perhaps an NA and or Jada you can also comment on that before we we move on because I have a couple other questions that I would like to to ask here well um I would like I would sorry I would like um if it's possible for um Lion now uh to discuss a little bit more to talk a little bit more because for instance we know that uh nowadays we have Dr Google right so people go to the Google and put their symptoms and they want uh you know to know their their diagnosis and they like to classify them of themselves or or friends family I am this and that um and I think it's great the way that liono puts in his book that suffering is unique to the individual and also that our the way that we understand the world is um of course influenced by uh our suffering could can be influenced by our suffering so what do you think L about uh you know all this um classification and uh diagnosis that people are doing

world is um of course influenced by uh our suffering could can be influenced by our suffering so what do you think L about uh you know all this um classification and uh diagnosis that people are doing here in Brazil for instance in staring even psychologist uh and psychiatrist um I would love to know your ideas of all this yeah I don't think the classification or diagnosis is really much help first of all there are a lot of different types of suffering have nothing to do with mental illness you won't find them in a psych you won't find it the kind of suffering that the individual is going through in a psychiatric textbook very often suffering is not always the result of pathology or something wrong with one very often it's a matter of circumstance that that we're in so we need some kind of broad uh way of thinking about suffering um so I mean we could start to talk about some strategies for dealing with it for example one of the commonest strategies one of the ones that Yong deploys is to find meaning in the suffering because people very often ask questions like why is this happening to me when they're ill some tragedy strikes or they say what have I done to deserve this and especially if you're a religious person you wonder you know a lot of people wonder whether they're being punished in some way um whether this is some kind of divine retribution um that kind of thing and very often if people have had a religious practice all their life and then suddenly they're suffering unexpectedly it may call their spiritual practice into question they may wonder you know have I been worshiping the wrong God or something like that so um sometimes you need to develop an entirely new image of God you need to develop think about what y call the Dark Side of God which typically the way Christians think about God or or um you have to find some other type of meaning in what's going on so maybe we could begin with this question of can suffering be meaningful the way Jung thinks it can be he thinks that if you

od or or um you have to find some other type of meaning in what's going on so maybe we could begin with this question of can suffering be meaningful the way Jung thinks it can be he thinks that if you can find meaning in suffering it makes suffering tolerable that would otherwise be unbearable I wonder what you think about that is that reasonable or not and I I love the the the question back right and what are your thoughts and I'd love to to hear from justat as well yeah well I'm um when I was uh reading again uh some parts of uh glo's book uh we always we are here Lon in this podcast we talk a lot about Jonah ganeles and her view in Psychology and she say something that you you you said in your book um and I think it's great um you just developed also what uh and I agree with you and with Yung that um you quote Yung that Suffering The Suffering that necessarily attaches to life cannot be evaded right and then you comment that from this suffering um human um advances and creativity arise from suffering and you say that um you quoting that there is no birth of Consciousness without pain in the collected work that you talks about that and Jonah janela says the same thing to expand Consciousness uh and you were talking about the God image the way that we understand God and we are of course throughout our lifetime we are going to question many times because everybody suffers it's part of our being here and living and developing Consciousness so I agree I think this is very it's very important that uh and I I talked about Dr Google and all the the going for in the search of diagnosis and treatments okay because uh it's like nobody can suffer nowadays I have to be the social medias I have to be happy I have to uh you know to be famous or be successful and we are here talking in lel's great book that uh suffering is part of not only of Life of our complexity of our psych and that we need we need in a certain way it leads us to the search of meaning that leads us to develop or expand our consciousness

suffering is part of not only of Life of our complexity of our psych and that we need we need in a certain way it leads us to the search of meaning that leads us to develop or expand our consciousness yeah suffering is not always a bad thing we want to get rid of it as quickly as possible but it's also important to ask what does this mean is this is this a part of my life in some important way is it sending me a message for example that was yong's view you thought that when you're suffering that this is like a message that something needs attention so suffering is not always abnormal it's not always psychop pathology it doesn't always mean that you need a diagnosis means you look need to look into what's going on in your mind and explore what it feels very often but I wonder whether you think that's reasonable um or whether you think that's a rationalization I mean some people think that there is no meaning in suffering it's just random Misfortune you know the tragic side of life well I was living to the end but you're also in a CH six when we talk about spiritual and religious approaches to suffering uh you aside fraud in the future of an illusion okay and of course we all know and everybody that is uh watching us of probably they all know also that frud um puts religion in spirituality as an and a big defense mechanism right an attempt to deal with our fear of death and and but I think it's great the way that you talk about L that um even though for many people can be a defense right for our helplessness and our fear of dying it doesn't disprove the reality you say of a spiritual dimension of reality or it doesn't disprove this Assumption of um a spiritual dimension reality and but what was your question I got so excited about talking that know you you were actually on track because Freud thought that religion is just when you say that suffering has meaning that there's some there's some larger transpersonal intelligence behind your suffering you could call it God or

rack because Freud thought that religion is just when you say that suffering has meaning that there's some there's some larger transpersonal intelligence behind your suffering you could call it God or Spirit or you know some other name there's some kind of intelligent ordering principle behind what happens to us Freud would say that's just a rationalization you know life is just tragic and people who say there is some meaning in it are just um defending against the suff the pain that they're having may may I say something else uh Professor because I I think it's quite interesting if we bring um suffering and we bring uh the the the the complexity of not just suffering in its uh one toone very multi-dimensional because we're are billions of people and each one of us are unique and we suffer in a unique manner uh and this counters to not just the Freud's idealization idea that we we are rationalizing it to be able to escape from the suffering but also which I believe is more of a western view of suffering which is let's diagn uh put a Diagnostics into it let's seee suffering uh with whatever means necessary let's find either a pill or a therapy that will diminish it without looking at all the the opportunities for driving from or getting to the results that the suffering would lead to you uh uh from that Consciousness perspective so I I think it's very quite interesting what we're talking here um um and uh I I just cannot um thank you enough for how beautifully you put uh such a difficult question which is suffering the subject of your entire book is suffering right and I believe all of us here have read it so we're we're really in really uh interested in in picking your brain a little bit on those meanings right um but knowing that there is this this Western propensity that is exacerbated today as anay is mentioned it's not just Brazil right to to go to WebMD or Dr Google or any source of uh um modern day witchery on fixing a source of pain doesn't matter how we just want to fix

rbated today as anay is mentioned it's not just Brazil right to to go to WebMD or Dr Google or any source of uh um modern day witchery on fixing a source of pain doesn't matter how we just want to fix that and in instead here in in in today's discussion we're here let's talk about meaning the meaning behind suffering how can we really look into uh it from a spiritual lens as well as depth psychology yeah yeah there and there of course there are different sources of meaning I mean when when let's say you become ill or you have a a loss a death or some some major tragedy like that um you can you can ask yourself the way Yong would approach this is he he would ask where is this suffering or this problem taking you that otherwise you wouldn't go how is this suffering changing the direction the course of your life and that's a very major question because you know um you know the ill joke about how you make God laugh by making friends so the ego has all kinds of plans about the way I want my life to go and then something happens and of course then the ego becomes what we call radically relativized the ego realizes it's not in charge this other intelligence going on and then you have a a question you know do you want to fight it do you want to surrender do you want to try to understand it that's what I'm trying to get at how do you address the issue yeah yeah love it uh I'm gonna punch you J just you want to talk about how do we address that what are your thoughts first of all I I would like to to say to Professor Corbet what an honor it is to have you here with us I hope you can come other times as well and uh thank you so much for H everything that you have been bringing and uh those partnership with h Dr ni as well uh for us to go um deeper into uh the understanding of psychotherapy and um and also for your book that is absolutely amazing I've been learning so much with it I have highlighted so many passages that we I think we would be here a year if we were to cover each one of them but more

so for your book that is absolutely amazing I've been learning so much with it I have highlighted so many passages that we I think we would be here a year if we were to cover each one of them but more straight going into this point of the meaning of suffering I I uh there are so many uh passages in the book that you yourself address it in terms of you know um first of all explaining how the DSM cannnot uh uh Focus or or or give an answer for every kind of suffering that we see and uh also I think in in chapter two you mentioned something that is so important because um in terms of the suffering is a byproduct of our painful emotions emotions that we could prevent and all of that is very similar to the spiritual perspective um because what can I learn from these negative emotions that I will have towards others that uh makes me suffering you know it's very clear that saying it's in your hands you can prevent that so there are many ways of suffering or or challenges many things that we go through because we ourselves are the one putting ourselves into trouble and um again quoting your book and you mention young uh y sorry uh there is no birth of Consciousness without pain I I had the opportunity of visiting his home in in Switzerland and when I was taken to uh his office where he would uh do his Psychotherapy sessions I was very intrigued by the uh stain glass that he has in his office and there was an old lady and I asked her you know was it him chose this dis glass H why is it here because it was a passage from the the calvary from Jesus you know going to the Cross being crucified and then um you know the resurrection and he she told me that's what she told me that it it was because he thought that this process of you know uh Liberation birth of conscious uh was very similar to going to the gogot to the calvary so it it means we um we we see here um through this spiritual perspective that although we do not need to go to suffering and the majority of them could be

similar to going to the gogot to the calvary so it it means we um we we see here um through this spiritual perspective that although we do not need to go to suffering and the majority of them could be preventive if it would take more care of our health if we would take more care of our emotions the ones and and the uh the moment they come to us they will be a red flag they will kind of indicate to us a path to track uh but I I I I think one of the things that you said that I I I think it impacted me a lot was uh right at the beginning that when we suffer intensely we may view the world through the lens of our suffering and so I I was wondering if this pessimistic wave that we are seeing all over is not the result of that the growing pains you know this birth of Consciousness that at the same time you know make us go to this conclusion that everyone is going through this suffering thank you J yes go ahead sure if your question was when we look at the suffering that's going on in the world all around us is that producing a new Consciousness is that what you were getting yes yes yes yes yes the birth of the birth of Consciousness and uh any and um and of course due to the so many challenges that we are all facing uh if this is so uh of course uh we will find a a wave of pessimism around because uh I'm seeing the word like I I'm feeling right but it doesn't seem that human beings are are learning from experience does it I mean keep repeating the same Wars and conflict we you know had since the beginning of the species so I'm not really sure if a new con ious is being born I think a new God image is being born I'd be happy to talk about that if you want but I'm not sure that in the collective that Consciousness is really being raised very much I'm sorry to sound pessimistic I I and I hear you uh Professor corbette it it it feels that it's all around us this this wave of pessimism yeah just s mention the Christian Perspective but remember there's very often a crucifixion but no

d I hear you uh Professor corbette it it it feels that it's all around us this this wave of pessimism yeah just s mention the Christian Perspective but remember there's very often a crucifixion but no Resurrection ction for many people they just feel chronically crucified you know it's all it's always there is no resurrection that the Christian model is is an important valuable model but it's not the only model we have to look at some others yeah well maybe here we can come with the spiritist knowledge I think because um you know Lono and I think I think Jad and Mars and some people that know our work that we are investigating the collective unconscious we have a research of anomalous experiences um seeing and being analyzed uh through U the comp yung's complex uh psycholog and we have um gather for instance there's a lot of of Interest nowadays in anomal experiences such as near death experiences and medam Mystic and paranormal experiences and I have been uh hearing a lot of podcasts also in English in United States a lot of people talking about that and and putting everything together uh also in this chapter six L talks about William James L and you say that um when you talk about his view some of his views that uh the evil facts may be the best citing William James the evil facts may be the best key to Life's significance and possibly the only openers of our eyes to the deepest levels of Truth so maybe we are um I don't know how you say in the center of the hurricane when there is like a silence and a a suffering feeling the suffering and um having to deal with all this Shadow and this evil in the world uh but the the hurricane the Twister whatever is there and the winds are blowing really strongly so I I we we kind of uh are a pair of two double cops L one that it's positive and one is negative sometimes but I think it's in the middle of this of Our World Vision because we have different experiences and um I think uh it's very interesting to um you know to pay

's positive and one is negative sometimes but I think it's in the middle of this of Our World Vision because we have different experiences and um I think uh it's very interesting to um you know to pay attention to this okay I'm not looking at the real thing that PE you know things that act behaviors of different people still Wars at this point and that's so crazy you know it sensless with everything that we have learned I totally agree with L from past Wars and it's there's no sense at all uh only interested and we know that of power money things like that and this is all ego but at the same time uh in the in when we analyze people uh anomalous spiritual experiences uh we can see this kind of birth of Consciousness that just was talking about you can find uh people are maybe starting psychologically looking for uh this expansion of consciousness if this could be a way from psychological point of view to understand Lono this wish for going beyond our sh Shadows of course we have to acknowledge our shadows but going beyond having an understanding that we we can expand our Consciousness I would love you and Jada and maybe Mara could to comment on that just me let me clarify here that when I was mentioning you know this birth of Consciousness I was mentioning the the words of Yung that Professor Corbet talks about in the book uh where you mentions that you know this you know the birth of Consciousness will not happen without pain so I I was thinking about that in terms of the this inner suffering that refers to the need that me as a soul in anguish have to look at myself and uh and face uh and and face my actions and face my thoughts and everything that is leading me to you know to conform with the circumstances of Life uh or to keep on going and into you know uh giving myself to behaviors that I know is going to be detrimental detrimental heartful to me at the end or if I go into a process of self knowledge right this spiritual Spirit Consciousness Awakening so that I

self to behaviors that I know is going to be detrimental detrimental heartful to me at the end or if I go into a process of self knowledge right this spiritual Spirit Consciousness Awakening so that I can start seeing um myself in different in a different perspective the the reason for being and with that grow which is not of course that easy because you know this whole process why is it painful and I I think it's very it's wonderful Professor Corbett that you mentioned so far we just see the cross we don't people in this stage of the resur Resurrection because we are still dealing with the Spain with uh you know the realization we I guess many of us are still trying to Bain like you know but do I really have to do that do I really have to uh retrain my my thoughts uh it's so painful it's so different it's not appreciate that was another phrase that we put it in the book that I think it it it it refers it could refer as well from my perspective to people that are going to this process of the birth of Consciousness which is you say many suffering people are marginalized so people that are suffering we don't want to see that in the media we don't want to see that in our Instagram Facebook Etc it seems like it's contagious but at the same time people that have somehow awakened to a new reality of oneself is also marginalized so it is a a different kind of pain you know I'm just try a lot of you know for you to it's a good topic right right lots and lots of uh approaches to to this topic go ahead Professor Corb the Gethsemane experience is is this whole problem of do I have to go through this um maybe L my I was wondering I was not saying that uh you know it's okay I think yes I agree totally with you that and with Jad and with Mara that the work that we have to do it's Insight we have to deal with our own shf bows and like J said the process of Awakening in a sense or developing actually it's the individuation process and all the concept you concept of the self that

Insight we have to deal with our own shf bows and like J said the process of Awakening in a sense or developing actually it's the individuation process and all the concept you concept of the self that it's the you know the richness of the death psychology um and of course includes suffering because who wants to you know see it own his her own shadow right but what I'm see that I I will give it that um I have been listening to a lot of podcast that people are and some people are saying lion know maybe this is kind of news to you but since we are um actually U having to analyze some cases right with where this appears anomalous experiences of extraterrestrials and things like that many people are saying that uh um we have inside of us the self like like the higher self I think United States a lot of people talk about young self would be analogous to what they call a lot of people call the higher self a higher Consciousness uh and they tend to talk in podcasts and a lot of uh YouTube channels as the higher self something having something of divine nature and off like luminous nature okay like is not what Yung said I mean what's new about that that's yeah it's not new but it's it's in the culture okay but what I think and I I think your contribution it's really important when you talk about the dark side of the self um in my vision yes we have to acknowledge that as Yung said but nobody well in this podcast nobody's talking about you so it's like this information is being I keep trying to talk yeah that's why we are here because I think as you I totally agree with you that we need more psychology we need more understanding about ourselves so that this podcast and Joanna's all work is all about that and so I'm I would just finish because I would love to see what just I once in you in YouTube to talk about but what I'm saying is that maybe some of these people not all of them are kind of um like bypassing the ego and the shadow and all of our problems that's my point because if I think that I'm only light

t what I'm saying is that maybe some of these people not all of them are kind of um like bypassing the ego and the shadow and all of our problems that's my point because if I think that I'm only light you know I come from the stars and I'm like you know I'm okay we have a divine nature I think we can all agree and Yung agree with that agrees with that but um it's not our divine Nation uh nature that is causing all the problems in the world wars and you know all this Shadow do evil so I think we cannot bypass the ego and its problems and the shadow and also what you said line know when you talk about the dark side of the South we cannot bypass this we have to acknowledge and we have like sh said it is in yun's uh uh Psychotherapy setting the Christ in the cross rightous so these opposite forces that uh when we suffer we have to face them otherwise our divine nature is not going to express itself here we have been struggling with that okay now I want to hear you guys but just to make clear that I'm not Pro say you know not saying that yes let's you know that I'm tracker I'm track fan but as data in the Next Generation he's always questioning our human nature he wants to know what it's n what's to be what's the point of Being Human what's uh our human nature means so I'll just finished my to give liono and Jada you said so greatly liono in chapter six struggling with question is perhaps one way of coping with the problem when we are in this search for meaning and developing our spirituality so we don't have to have uh right away uh answers that calm us down let's say we have to struggle with the questions and listen to ourselves right sorry justad I knew you wanted to talk and we all want to see what l no this is this is a a lovely topic here today and we are approaching our time so I I I would like for us to explore and and comment on on on that information that you brought struggling with questions is perhaps coping with suffering itself so just the way I heard that's why you know

I would like for us to explore and and comment on on on that information that you brought struggling with questions is perhaps coping with suffering itself so just the way I heard that's why you know spoken words are so always so complicated but the way I heard is as if she was trying to say uh to me the way I de codified is like we are looking for another Escape mechanisms uh another way to delegate to transfer our responsibility because now the ETS are coming and going to be helping us and doing the work work that we haven't done so far so this is not something that we actually accept or condone in terms of uh you know spiritism the work that we have to do is this work that you know it is it is painful it's like the growing pain of the spirit and through the different different stages we have to uh you know the the lessons are just before us before our eyes and it's up to us to embrace them or not uh otherwise we are going to be seeing repetition of the same patterns and uh that that that hurts us that leads us to suffering and up to when am I going to be you know climbing that mountain to to the cross and and and and not just go through the whole process and just uh uh come back a new right resurrected in terms of no longer the ego imposing itself of me and me being Guided by my my desires my wings my U negative emotions but that are the cause of suffering so I I think one of the lessons it it it's very hard for us to face that when we are talking about spiritism spiritually speaking is you are the Artisan of your life so pay attention and the many of the suffering can be prevented or even tracked in a way that is not going to be that painful so yes Professor Corbett it's on you now well but isn't isn't the point partly that we're not entirely in charge of Our Lives that there is some kind of background intelligence in the universe and reality is unfolding according to the way it wants reality to unfold and very often the ego doesn't like the result very often the ego

there is some kind of background intelligence in the universe and reality is unfolding according to the way it wants reality to unfold and very often the ego doesn't like the result very often the ego says I you know this is happening and it's causing a great deal of pain um and that's when you have to come to terms with it I mean can you surrender can you let go can you acknowledge that this background intelligence the self if you the higher self if you like is is running the show or you know um to what extent are we supposed to struggle with it to what extent are we supposed to surrender those are the important questions I really I really appreciate that right it it's a not a simple answer um but uh we we do need to understand the I would say large percentage of of of uh from what I understand here from our suffering is is resulting from the struggle of our ego going against our higher self our s with a capital S and and I think this is an important lesson for all of us uh we're here to debate on the the question of uh suffering and uh some spiritual components of the the suffering perhaps finding meaning into it um gaining a a a level of psychology psychological maturity a spiritual maturity that is a result of the suffering itself but most importantly it is all about us may I say resigning to it accepting it because through it we we overcome it does this make sense I wouldn't say resign because resign has a it has an angry grudging quality to it if you if you really accept what's happening as necessary there's no sense of um anger in that it's simply the experience of feeling that what's happening has to be the way it is um it's not quite the same as res which is submission really it's not that it's it's embracing the situation as necessary somehow yeah which changes everything right uh and as it changes then we can we're now able to find meaning into that experience but um I'm so sad to say that we are at time and uh and with that I want to say thank you thank you so much

g right uh and as it changes then we can we're now able to find meaning into that experience but um I'm so sad to say that we are at time and uh and with that I want to say thank you thank you so much J Dr na Dr Corbett I really appreciate this opportunity um a plug again to to Professor Corbett's book a soul in English uh delightful uh even though the the title may be off-putting for some but is a truly delightful uh beautifully crafted uh just uh uh to me very very digestible if you're not a psychologist uh just beautifully written and uh a pleasure pleasure to to to to read and to understand the concept of suffering that um that uh we all are um vulnerable to it right most of us uh are unable to not be vulnerable but with that I want to say goodbye and uh invite all of you who are here with us today to uh be with us next time and thank you very much everyone fine