Ep 67 - Searching for Existential and Ethical Meaning

hi everyone welcome to the psychology and spirituality a bridge to a better life discussion I'm your host mercan and with me are Dr anona and Josiah Gord gold hi everyone if this is the first time you're watching this podcast like program please note that our program Psych colge and spirituality is a program with weekly talks and based in the works by Joanna deangeles where here to offer a conversation but also a safe space to confront compare correlate and expand spirituality Concepts from a psychological lens today Dr naif F can just out a corn go what discuss some topics around meaning in the search for meaning right right but before we start our conversation I'd like to recognize the organizations that are sponsoring this program Manel duino United States Spirits Federation the international Spirits Council and manino and I Brazil sorry if I I repeated myself here but I ask you that uh please make sure you hit subscribe if you haven't already done so and if you'd like to check out other channels or more information please do so by reaching www.sis.us if you have any questions if you have any feedback any comments please write them in our chat and we'd love to hear from you in any case I'm here to say hello again and really interested in talking about uh issues from that perspective or what we need right what we need to achieve perhaps a sense of well-being that can be maybe balance Peace Love A sense of fulfillment a sense of self and as I go through that I wanted to open our conversation uh by reading a paragraph from Jonah d'angeles book that I'd love for all of you to to have access to but in any case Jonah the angelist writes the following the individual POS possesses even if unconsciously the germs of the ethical sense of Earthly existence spark of the Divine psyche that is it carries within the depths of the self this embryo that develops in direct proportion to the predominance of knowledge and emotion over Primal instincts making room for reason discernment and

hat is it carries within the depths of the self this embryo that develops in direct proportion to the predominance of knowledge and emotion over Primal instincts making room for reason discernment and Evolution as its March is ascensional each step taking signifies a new experience that incorporates into it enabling it to face new challenges my question to both of you how do we lose ourselves in this existential and ethical sense an what are your thoughts well first of all hello everyone it's a pleasure to be here among friends again and um wow we are always amazed with johanna's ways of putting so beautifully uh you know bringing to us all this knowledge so let's connect to what uh you said Mara we are sparks of the Divine psych that's so beautiful so we know that uh we are we belong to the Divine psych right that the germ of the ethical sense of Earthly existence so um I was among among some colleagues some days ago in a discussion and other fellow psychiatrists were wondering um from where this uh evil malignance comes from you know from where does it come uh that makes us go to Wars and to feel apart from each other all this competition things like that and Joanna is saying that the germ of the ethical sense of Earthly existence so we have all you know um this J ter of the ethical sense and and this part the spark of divine sight within us yeah but she urges us that and she says that uh we carry within the depths of the self remembering that self capital S Yun concept of the self but that Joan expands the yung's concept to say that the self is our Spirit right our Immortal Spirit our spiritual exp experiences during our evolutionary process so of course there is an embryo that needs um to grow right uh in this beautiful sentence that Janna talks about and she says that it is in the development is in direct proportion to the predominance of knowledge and emotion over Primal instincts making room for reason discernment and evolution because sometimes I hear people saying okay so if we are sparkles

direct proportion to the predominance of knowledge and emotion over Primal instincts making room for reason discernment and evolution because sometimes I hear people saying okay so if we are sparkles sparkles of the Divine site we come from this uh Divine source that we all call God or the Transcendence one Transcendent one uh Creative Source of the universe however people want to okay okay so we have uh inside of us already this knowledge but Joanna urges us to pay attention that it's in embryo form and that we cannot bypass the process of evolution because sometimes it worries me a little bit hearing a lot of people either wondering from where all the where all this evil and competitiveness and you know all this values that makes us feel apart from each other come from uh but at the same time other people saying it's like you know an unbalance nowadays a paradox it's a paradox that some people are saying okay we are part of the Divine Consciousness so we already have the Divine conscious let's just manifest it it's beautiful it would be it will be sometime but Joanna is urging us to to pay attention that there is an evolution evolutionary process okay yes and then we have to overcome first step by step Primal instincts to make room for reason discernment and and the and go on in the process of evolution and that our March is ascensional step by step right so um it it came to my mind Mara when you were reading one of uh yun's uh quotes let's say um he when he says that there is no birth of Consciousness without pain without some pain okay we are not going to at least in one Incarnation to illuminate ourselves now okay now I'm ready and I can you know just um we would like that but uh we know no flipping the switch right we can just say let's turn it on now yes exactly so and I would love to hear just a thought about and I just wanted to remember when I when I was listening reading again Janna because we have to read very many many times so that we can integrate all

so and I would love to hear just a thought about and I just wanted to remember when I when I was listening reading again Janna because we have to read very many many times so that we can integrate all of the knowledge that she she's bringing to us uh but also um about this process that is in um let's say it some pain is inevitable right so I was thinking that now and what Joanna says in this beautiful book is that um whenever what we the individual uh for instance uh when we are not focus in our development okay what happens many times is that um we are going to try to develop our what we call our personas yes our um the part of the ego that triy desperately to adapt to the outside world and this is very important because so the ego is totally focused on adaptation to the outside world so what Jonah is saying that we should pay a lot of attention because if my ATT uh to this process if I just I'm just worried with adaptation to the outside world I will comply to a lot of other people's thoughts vision of the worlds and competition and all this uh it will be firsthand in my worries right and what she says that uh then we forget this process of what she calls self-confrontation in other books she she urges us to it's more or less the same self anal is for instance the process of self-discovery yeah so if we look only to the outside then we get we kind of get lost to look in our uh inside on our inner self right and then we can become she says um what happens the person doesn't do this self-confrontation okay I want to adapt I want to the people like like me love me prefer in preference of everything else but uh sometimes I will have to say no I don't want that no I don't agree with that okay if other thinks this and that but for me if I'm doing this process of self-confrontation I will feel in my heart what brings me inner peace what brings me you know um what makes this connection with my inner uh world what makes my heart uh uh you know feel Joy feel beauty in things and makes it it

el in my heart what brings me inner peace what brings me you know um what makes this connection with my inner uh world what makes my heart uh uh you know feel Joy feel beauty in things and makes it it stronger to face challenges she says it's very very important for us in this process of evolution to face challenges because we go step by step and what she says um Mara and J and I would love to hear about that is that when a person is so focused on the outside world then if the person um gets like a victim of some failure yeah either being economic social emotional or even uh existential or organic sorry nature then the person as you asked us will lose this existential ethical sense you know can I can I just wrap it up because I'm thinking this is really good stuff I want to hear from you Jada but what I heard and this is my words of course is uh Joanna is inviting us to this um self to be courageous to Embark in this self-discovery journey and that self-discovery requires courage it's not just right uh I I can do it um and uh you just start it it takes a lot of Courage because of course there are many issues that I think uh maybe we can talk later about Escape mechanism or how we hide from ourselves why why rof cause being perhaps in our egoic construct to adapt to the demands of the outside world we spend as everybody should time or or energy developing this pers Persona right that is successful and success only from egoic uh perspective is material it's success in the maybe bio and uh social sphere so I am organic I'm a human being so I need to meet Successful by being physically well by being healthy Etc in the social aspect is all my inter relationships which unfortunately perfect storm right we are looking at the world from a material lens only biosocial lens and in the west mostly we are in a place where we are mostly driven by competition not collaboration competition and uh field by capitalism in this quest to acquire things therefore we not only identify ourselves

est mostly we are in a place where we are mostly driven by competition not collaboration competition and uh field by capitalism in this quest to acquire things therefore we not only identify ourselves with the Persona we identify ourselves with the things that are acquired and even our relationship with a given uh identification and I'm talking about I'm a mother I need ex I'm a I'm a professional I need why etc etc so from all of this regardless of good or bad there's this element which is no matter how successful you are all of us will fail right all of us will fail and it now we are falling into the notion of um an existential and ethical lack of meaning if you will because we have not spent or invested energy in becoming spiritual and psychologically mature does this make sense did I get what you said and Joanna said and uh and if so J what are your thoughts on on that how did we lose uh this what can we do to to get back on track so first of all hi everyone how great to be here again uh to have you all following you know our podcast and uh like and I said every time we dive into the works of Joanna the angelist it requires from us a lot of thinking uh pondering and exchanging of ideas and I think it's very much what we do here not only from a spiritual perspective but also due to having the opportunity of having Dr anaa with us we can go into the scientific approach as well uh like a psychiatrist that that she is and also with the expertise of Marcia so it is so great and um for us poor Mortals sometimes we have to try to deify what she she saying and in this book that we are talking about today that is the Awakening of the spirit that is part of the collection of uh the psychological series that was psychographed by dealo Pera Franco in this H part this first paragraph and she talks about us being the spark of the Divine psyche I was thinking about that famous painting that we have in the assistant Chapel done by Michelangelo I think most of us are familiar with this paining when uh uh

us being the spark of the Divine psyche I was thinking about that famous painting that we have in the assistant Chapel done by Michelangelo I think most of us are familiar with this paining when uh uh melang portrays the work of Life Meaning God what would be the representation of God the the the Finger of God the tip of the Finger of God touching the tip of the finger of the human and with that bringing life so this is what we call here the spark a spiritualists normally refer to that uh with using a word that is called monage monage mean the only cell and it's so amazing that when she's talking about the embryo El we know embryo has not me just one cell right but it is still means uh at the moment it it's formed and all the possibilities of uh developing development it contains so from that point on on I I don't know if the word fail uh it's something that I would perhaps I you I I would use you know more like we are you know uhcc because you know it is not a failure when we when we supposedly fail yeah it's experience it's because we are trying it's because we are doing something and we learn from this trials and fails uh but but I think it's not very much in the sense that I when when we we use this word I failed it it means that I you know and I don't see it like that I see it like you know I am a being full of possibilities yes and according to my choice CH is the way I'm going to be directing my life I may get it right or not uh but if I do not get it right I always have the opportunity of going on because it is my destiny and I think it's very important as well the way that she says that you know at least in the first stages uh that we are as you know this development of this Divine Spark right the the potentiality that we have uh she talks about us developing more personality than individuality going further than just the thinking about this terminology in terms of you know in medical terms uh in terms of the psychotherapy what to me would mean you know developing more personality than

ality going further than just the thinking about this terminology in terms of you know in medical terms uh in terms of the psychotherapy what to me would mean you know developing more personality than individual it it means that I'm more uh worried with like an said with the material things that will fulfill my five senses and all the needs that I have then necessarily think about me as this monage individuality you know Divine Sparkle right and the thing is when we think about that and the way she says here that on the first Stag and it's great that you said on you we we still have so much ahead of us uh without a doubt um we have walked a long way already but there is so much we cannot think about ourselves not not even in the middle of the journey yeah getting the Journey so of course we are still much more you know in this personality phase very much like the child that needs to couch everything to put it in the mouth they have to feel they have to use the five cents and the way that she explains here is is it's it's very simple I mean she's saying the more we go towards the light you know make really this spark shiny uh shine and uh make this individuality grow the more I distance myself from the personality the ego the the shadow that it represents you know something that encases me in a way that I I you know uh it's like we live in an illusion we think that this is the only thing that exists so this is the little world that I know of and somehow I have to manage here that's why the conflicts when you know I have things I go by the standards everything is good but when for whatever reason we don't feel that much adjusted to what the world requires we go into very difficult psychological problem processes and of course spiritual process yeah what can we do and what are your thoughts well um listening to you guys um and in this uh when Joanna talks about exactly what just said developing more personality than individuality um uh maybe for everyone to to make it easier to understand it

um listening to you guys um and in this uh when Joanna talks about exactly what just said developing more personality than individuality um uh maybe for everyone to to make it easier to understand it remind me of the the the that great move movie with Jim Cary and Morgan Freeman Bruce Almighty oh yeah so so for those that don't know right uh Bruce Almighty was a movie that came out oh two decades ago uh a little bit more than two decades ago and it's it's about of right the idea of the Divine in a comedy sense I love it I love that you're bringing that up but uh uh uh how how does it talk to you how does uh this plot about a man that that wants to complains right complains about how life is on going as it should and then God allows him to be God for one week and of course that's the plot of the the movie tell us about it anay how how does it help us understand the spark of the Divine sparkk know okay can well I will give 20 years spoilers yes I think it's okay for people but um because Bruce so if people remember and who hasn't seen the movie should go and try to watch it again or for the first time uh because it's exactly what Joanna says the the character Bruce okay the main character he wanted to be I think um anchor or something he wanted to be the the guy in his in his TV show and whatever and uh so he was trying you know really hard and he thought he would be um you know he would be in a short while because he was okay with with his boss and this and that and then this other guy uh uh is promoted to Anchor and then he gets really mad because he was doing exactly what Joanna told us we shouldn't do is to focus only on the Persona as Marshall said we have to adapt to this world but we have to have this balance between inner world and urges and uh and um you know needs and the outer world and that this need that we all have to adaptation and so what happens that Bruce gets really mad with God and we all do as well right at sometimes this happening like just said

eds and the outer world and that this need that we all have to adaptation and so what happens that Bruce gets really mad with God and we all do as well right at sometimes this happening like just said I said like young children you know spiritually speaking and then uh well God Appears to him like Wonder wonderful Morgan Freeman and um and then challenges him okay if you say you could do better then good do better try to do better you're going to be God like for one week or something like that and then uh if if you remember uh he gets mad at some point with the listening to all the prayers for Ev you know coming through all parts of and then he tries so that the prayers just okay just put notes and then a lot of notes feel all stream the the process the connection with God right yeah so then he decid okay let's put all in the computer so he just goes without sleeping because the computer starts running like crazy and in the morning he is half asleep with all the prayers and then he says am I going to to you know to read all of this to answer one by one then he just puts uh yes to all remember yes to all then the world goes crazy and I think this um this POS well this um the way that he was uh seeing the world and its problems and people's problems were were uh was through his own experience like a child like said I want everything how come God doesn't give me everything uh so I and it's kind of a narciss istic position of the ego so I I understand when Jonah says um developing more personality than individuality then uh not listening to this need or not not paying attention actually to this need of self analysis self-confrontation to see for instance if it's h well I think it's my inner child that is Desiring this and that because I have to be as an adult to be able to face you know frustration and to wait for things to happen and to pay attention to others needs not only minds so he was like exactly as just said like a child I want everything how come I'm not Anor anymore

u know frustration and to wait for things to happen and to pay attention to others needs not only minds so he was like exactly as just said like a child I want everything how come I'm not Anor anymore so uh when he tries to play God he you know the world goes mad because he's looking uh to the world with the L his own L of his suffering and the need to to pay attention to his inner world is this desire okay if my colleague is better than I why am I uh why should I have you know the job it's better that my colleague because he's better than I so we have also to think of the collective and all the our human beings our fellows human beings so what happens is that uh if people he makes a mess and there's a beautiful um his screams and and then he has a message if I recall to meet God at some point and then God is there the wonderful Mor Morgan Freeman is spping the floor I think cleaning the floor and gives him uh also you know the okay let's put the floor together let's um clean the floor together and this wonderful dialogue that in the end said if you want a miracle be the miracle be yourself because the miracle is not giving everything to anyone you what you did with the soup that he he did like Moses in this with his soup he made a way just you know divide the ocean in his is that that was like childish God tells yes yes what it's really a that that was not a miracle When God says a miracle it's a single mother waking up and having two three jobs to you know put food in for his for her children a miracle is when a teenager says no to drugs and goes on study so a miracle is exactly one what Joanna tells us uh to face our challenges how so beautiful J beautifully said you know to to go further to and as you said Mara to be courageous remember that core the prefix is uh in in Latin is U heart in Latin and and courageous is to act with the heart with the wisdom of the heart so be courageous in in facing the challenges and then when they clean the floor together and and that God tells him if

in Latin and and courageous is to act with the heart with the wisdom of the heart so be courageous in in facing the challenges and then when they clean the floor together and and that God tells him if you want a a miracle then be the miracle and then uh you know he said well the good thing is that when we make a mass that is exactly what J was saying when we fail we can always clean up afterwards I think that's so great because it's exactly how do we learn we learn uh through our mistakes also it's not when I do great in in some challenge but sometimes when I fail I will learn faster if I you know I'm humble and I recognize well maybe I should have done this and that or what uh a senior or Elder told me so when we are you know humble when we can face that we made a mistake so that I think that's the individuality and remember uh remembering just what Yung says the process of individuation that makes us whole it's not individualization it's not to be an individual a part of others but to be hold with all the different aspects that um forms US during our evolutionary process so I think that's what Jonah says not so much personality not so much ego I want this this and that like Bruce yeah and uh more um wholeness more acceptance of everything that we are you know to be truth to ourselves and then I think we are in the path but let's think about it because I want to go back and push both of you to talk a little bit more uh on the topic at hand which is the search right the search for existential and ethical meaning and that search implies that we need to awaken our deep self right and that's the process The Awakening is actually the proc of process of achieving um the the individuation that we all need right but can we talk a little bit about maybe perhaps uh are there techniques are there tips are there some uh insights that we can talk here about the process to make it easier for us to to really look into this emptiness that I carry right this existential emptiness that I carry and

re tips are there some uh insights that we can talk here about the process to make it easier for us to to really look into this emptiness that I carry right this existential emptiness that I carry and and and look for ways to attain or address or be courageous enough to look into that that well I will ask J maybe we can divide because Janna exactly she talks about two techniques let's say oh awesome and I think one maybe I can uh talk and then the other maybe just said it because it it fell pretty well in our both our experiences right J because uh she said she talks about psychotherapeutic techniques in this chapter uh for this loss of existential ethical sense when we lose ourselves uh from this sparkle of the Divine there is when we get stuck in the personality and um and we kind of lose ourselves of our individuality and one of them that it's pretty much what we do in Psychotherapy for instance she talks about a bio graphical study I think it's very important of of ourselves of our individual even writing a diary she says so that we can revisit the journey in order to identify the origins of our conflicts and complexes so it's not that difficult right it's do psychotherapy but you can also uh start journaling on what is going on what are my source of conflicts why do I feel the way I do yes exactly because in Psychotherapy we talk uh about um what since Freud we call like talking cure and I think in a lot of um spiritist centers and spiritualist uh where or even in churches and temples with the spiritual leaders when never a person or even among friends but if we are connected to this uh focus on myself on trying to think about my journey but when I talk to someone uh with this in mind okay there will be a process of cure more or less intense depending on on the situation because when I'm talking about my my process trying to find where does this conflict this bad feeling this depression or anxiety comes from and which behaviors can I trace back in my life or uh uh or situations

en I'm talking about my my process trying to find where does this conflict this bad feeling this depression or anxiety comes from and which behaviors can I trace back in my life or uh uh or situations where I felt the same that I'm feeling now even uh if with the different people we do a lot of this kind of thinking together in in a Psy psychotherapeutic setting and Joanna tells urges us that we can do by ourselves for instance writing a diary she says and it's like we did when we were children I don't knows are doing but we have sometimes with a key right yeah we write one day and we would say oh this I did this and that so it's so beautiful this creativeness of children and this truth um you know being true to to themselves um that I can talk to myself and say to I this this and that and I felt this and that so when the child the teenager and any of us actually is doing that we are connecting to our journey and we are uh kind of analyzing ourselves that's exactly what Joanna urges us to do you know this self-confrontation oh I felt this so bad because my friend said this and that but you know my mom my sister had said something similar in another situation and I felt the same so what's inside of me that responds to this kind of uh situation wow then I'm not in other people's hands I'm in my own hands victimized right and I no longer becoming a a peon of uh external event events but how do we control our emotional response to whatever is out there exactly and just to find finalize Jonah says our complex is being like subpersonalities within our personal unconscious that she says we must integrate them so we must accept recognize their existence and accept them uh like for instance our child that we have talked about sometimes so to be healthier and to have healthier behaviors towards ourselves and other people but Shan also uh talks about another technique that I ask Jada to talk about that's so yeah J tell us do you can you can you Enlighten us on additional tips on how to become more in

s and other people but Shan also uh talks about another technique that I ask Jada to talk about that's so yeah J tell us do you can you can you Enlighten us on additional tips on how to become more in with ourselves and less empty perhaps yeah um what I I I find it so amazing is how we we see the clarity you know the vision of this benefactor that is Joan and d'angeles because uh at no point whatsoever she uh refuses or or indicates to us uh Overlook how much you know Prof uh the professionals can help us so she mentions how important it is for us in in doing this assessment of you know I know you know I'm not good I may if I use those therapeutic terap um techniques for instance of you know trying to look behind things that could have contributed for my state of being today if I I start you know sometimes it's not the big things that make a difference but it's the small things and I think it's so wise of her to say take note of the little things that are happening to you and and put it in a diary on a day-to-day basis because then you you know they they may add and may impact us much more than trauma that you have I I don't know I'm talking as a no professional here please correct me if I'm wrong but sometimes you know because they are more recent and and it's so many thing happening or or the trigger right they may be exactly the trigger for something else yeah right and the sum up of everything and sometimes that we are not paying attention you know I know that I went through that that was was Major during my childhood but uh if we're going to look at everything else we will recognize that maybe the weight of what is happening now the little things are even more than just one trauma that we had and and and so she says that it is essential for us to look for Therapeutics as resource always having in mind that in this process of you know this sparkling right this monage to become the Big Bang right love it love it right this the universe has no end and our universe has no end so I'm just

having in mind that in this process of you know this sparkling right this monage to become the Big Bang right love it love it right this the universe has no end and our universe has no end so I'm just that first bank that this this is spark uh this is our our our Destin this is our path and very much like you know I think we all know people that perhaps came to you at instance and said oh I helped that person so much and I didn't even receive a thank you I'm not going to help anyone anymore you know this is what you get and I sometimes of course I don't say anything but it's like I mean this is so are you looking for an excuse to yourself for not doing anything because you're not convincing me with that that this is reason enough for you not to continue this is what she says the pursuit of self-realization cannot be interrupted by the last happy episodes that are part of life are part of growing you know and then she gives another clue for us right besides you know making a journey to your past writing in your your Journal also remember that s serving others is an excellent technique for you not just to be in your Tico tickle face uh and and thinking about yourself and your own problems look around and uh make yourself useful and this is going to be fulfilling so I I I think it's incredible all the the way she she puts all of this together she does and uh all of this is just let said it's in in a small book I I always say small because they're tiny right they're they're tiny not so much consumable or digestible without pondering without reading and rereading perhaps but here today we' really talked about all of those things that uh are inherited in us that uh that Divine spark that is all in Us in whatever shape or form but it's all in us and that uh we we have beautiful opportunities to serve to pray to to look for ourselves in this self-discovery path and uh and it's it's where we can find ourselves in the path of in addition to developing our personalities also to in the path of

to serve to pray to to look for ourselves in this self-discovery path and uh and it's it's where we can find ourselves in the path of in addition to developing our personalities also to in the path of individuation individuation as Jung Carl gusta Yung mentioned that that goal of accepting all there is as part of us but with that I just want to say we are at time time flies when we're here talking and of course we want to thank uh Jonah d'angels for the amazing uh framework for us to talk today about existential and ethical search for all of us with that I'd say see you next time thank you so much J thank you so much an I just want to say something yes please do please do since we're talking about God Almighty today the movie there is one phrase that is attributed to Oscar wild that says the following when when God wants to punish you it answers your prayer this is in a direct quote to or direct reference to one of the moments that you can just Google in YouTube for Bruce Almighty prayer right where God God talks to him and even teaches him it's a maybe a three to four minute clip that you can find easily where he teaches what is to pray deep inside but you're right J throughout the movie I I love that you brought that up we we have uh God as this how we interpret God of course uh submitted with millions and millions of prayers so let us be mindful what we wish for exactly with that I Want to Say Goodbye everyone thank you thank you for being here with us bye