Ep 43 - Dreams - Pt 1

hi everyone welcome to the psychology in spirituality a bridge to a better life discussion I'm your host Marcia trano and with me are Dr naifa and J corn go hi everyone but if you're here with us today and this is the very first time you're watching this podcast like program please note that this program the psychology and spirituality weekly talks are based on the works by Joanna deangeles and this is a space to offer a a room for us to talk to confront to compare to correlate and to expand spirituality Concepts from a psychological lens and the goal for us is to through a warm and informal conversation bring insights tips real world advice anything to help us lead a better life today's episode will be focusing on dreams but wait not dreams as in goals objectives uh achievements but dreams that in which we we sleep and have dreams but before we start our conversation I would like to First recognize the sponsoring organizations that are here with us today and they are iy Brazil the TV manando Cino the international Spirits Council and the United States uh Spirits Federation make sure you hit subscribe if you haven't done so already and if you'd like to learn more about what we're doing please check us out at www.sp spiritist us if you have any questions please do write them down uh send us via chat and if we don't have time today to answer them we will at a later episode and here we are hello anay hello Jara I'm really eager to hear from I both of you about dreams but how about we start with you an on dreams and how do we go about uh uh learning more about them what is the approach perhaps that uh Freud and Jung had when they first started to study this this this really obscure discipline if you think about it it's very difficult and uh it's still in its infant stage right yes in a certain point but I know that J will help us today a lot to clarify a lot of uh uh aspects that Jung and frud only touched and the spiritist knowledge brings uh much broader um aspects of of this study let's say uh in

I know that J will help us today a lot to clarify a lot of uh uh aspects that Jung and frud only touched and the spiritist knowledge brings uh much broader um aspects of of this study let's say uh in a certain way it's difficult because we are talking about the unconscious when we sleep right uh it's not that we don't have a Consciousness our Consciousness is always there because we remember dreams and even if we don't remember because the unconscious slips you know through our fingers like sand uh but especially because the ego our Consciousness uh usually kind of is afraid of the unconscious so represses or denies aspects of the unconscious that is trying to you know uh come forth uh to Consciousness so the thing is that we all dream we we dream every night uh we we C may or may not remember our dreams but everybody dreams but if our if our sleep is not a very good one and nowadays everybody is having problems with sleeping because our um schedules are so busy and things like that I brought a very nice example for later on in the episodes but the thing is that since we are having a lot of us are having problems sleeping so many times we won't remember our dreams okay but everybody dreams and dreams are very very important so the first academic uh let's say medical person because everybody knows that Freud was a neurologist right so so in um 1900 he publishes the interpretation of Dreams his book about dreams and uh it was you know in this book he was the first um he gave to dreams a scientific Dimension okay for the first time uh an academic and a medical person really examined dreams um scientifically so he paved we can say that he paved the way to the exploration of the unconscious this book is like you know uh opens a door for the unconscious let's say so from there he constructs a model of our um psyche and um he we say that there in the interpretation of Dreams he writes and he um con rcts the what we call the topical theory that means um topos in Greek is places okay

tructs a model of our um psyche and um he we say that there in the interpretation of Dreams he writes and he um con rcts the what we call the topical theory that means um topos in Greek is places okay so he divides because of this um exploration of the unconscious through dreams he divides the unconscious into everybody knows the unconscious the preconscious and the conscious okay the three places uh in our let's say topos in our uh psych but the thing is that uh Freud consider uh the the dream okay uh so a normal functioning something that was quite normal and it is because everybody dreams of our mind but at the same time he would consider as a psychopathological expression so both at the same time normal and not very normal let's say to simplify right and why why not very normal because he would say that in dreams um there is an equivalence between the dreams and the Neurosis for frud because it's Bas the basic function of the dreams for for Freud would be the gratification of Express desires so everything that the ego say no I don't I desire that but I cannot uh you know deal with that it's not acceptable then we would have a sensor okay an inner sensor say no this has to be repressed and sent back to the unconscious okay mind uh but the thing so for Freud the the dream is a psychological mechanism that works to preserve sleep okay expressing and at the same time discharging uh unacceptable unconscious Desires in a disguised way which way would that be uh through symbols okay so then comes Yung can I before you go there so let me just mix sure we because this is awesome right we we have Freud the I I believe he was the very first book to bring that a very academic very scientific study of this thing we call dreams right and they he examines and by doing this by publishing this uh in the the book the interpretation dreams he opens the door to this enormous study that still goes on which is our unconscious but as he brings that he he he brings about I'm just trying to

ng this uh in the the book the interpretation dreams he opens the door to this enormous study that still goes on which is our unconscious but as he brings that he he he brings about I'm just trying to before I go to Yung brings about this idea is this normal or not normal is it a a a a normal condition yes it is everybody dreams it's a basic and its basic function is to to bring it up right but on the other hand it really can tell forell the you you call a psychopathological state meaning an neurotic state of uh uh most of us I would say so let's see a little bit about now that we know what Freud talked to us what did Yung tell us about dreams okay sorry go ahead think it would be right to say that he's talking about you know repressed desires that you know when we go to sleep then um I allow my my unconscious to act uh upon it without me being feeling you know the guilty and Etc so the the repressive desires come to place and now let's see yeah I recently everyone I recently went through a a small uh procedure medical procedure and uh and uh everybody was telling me well you're going to undergo anesthesia and uh uh watch out as you're waking up you may say things that it may be not the best way that you would portray yourself so make sure whoever is driving you home that he or she knows about it and it's just very funny that the the sensor is a little bit looser right is not as as as controlling as the sensor that we have in our very lucid very awake state but go ahead no it's exactly that's that's frud point of view so he would say and uh in a sense he would say that remember that the dreams uh are um a psychological mechanism to preserve uh the Sleep uh and um and so because we all have these repressed desires so um they would be disguised through symbols the symbolism and then um there would be like the the energy connected to them would go would you know be a little bit um like we say discharged okay through the dream process uh that's frud frud Fraud's idea okay but then comes

ere would be like the the energy connected to them would go would you know be a little bit um like we say discharged okay through the dream process uh that's frud frud Fraud's idea okay but then comes Yung then comes Yung yes and um so dream interpretation is the Cornerstone of yungan psychology and uh analytical technique also we Y and analyst work a lot with um with dreams and it also one of the most influen iial contributions that Yung made to the thinking and technique of modern psychology and just a reminder that uh frud um started with the dreams studying dreams uh the unconscious through dreams but at same at some point he developed psych analysis and the couch and a person free inter um interpret free um you know when when the connections when the person can't remember now the the exact words but when the person just keep talking and then the analyst will interpret okay okay free association that's it yeah okay and in the couch and all and then he left dreams alone he said the the interpretation of Dreams um they wouldn't uh would be not necessary anymore because we have preassociation and psychoanalysis so then the end the psychoanalyst stopped kind of stopped working with dreams many still can work but majority you know just left alone because then we have free association and the couch and and psychoanalysis okay but then what Jung says is in y's point of view the psych uh our psych our mind but in a broad other sense the psych is both a natural and a purposeful phenomenon which means that um it's evolving and then I will after I'll tell this I would love to see Jada and she bringing the spiritist knowledge because then Yung says Freud didn't have this idea of the psych of and of the Evol ution of our psych okay the development of Personality sorry the maturity yes but not the evolution of Consciousness in this way okay and remember that Yung uses the psych again brings the term psych not mind and Psych is in Greek the soul okay so it's a broad view of uh the psychological phen

ution of Consciousness in this way okay and remember that Yung uses the psych again brings the term psych not mind and Psych is in Greek the soul okay so it's a broad view of uh the psychological phen phenomena and he sees dreams in the same way as the psych as natural and purposeful the spontaneous and undisguised so totally opposite as frud in this sense spontaneous and undisguised expression of unconscious processes okay so he says that according to Yung Freud made mistake in supposing that the reason for our frequent difficulty in fully fully unveiling the dreams meaning was the imposition of a disguised by some supposed dream sensor Yung didn't um was not in a you know he didn't uh agree with Freud in that because uh he thinks that the uh for you our difficulties in interpreting dreams are due to their unconscious nature because dreams do not express themselves in the verbal or logical language of conscious life but find their voice for youung in a quite different language which is the language of symbolism and symbolism for you is not the same thing as for frud for youung to understand dreams man it is necessary to learn to speak this language of symbolism the language of the unconscious is symbolic and uh so the unconscious is rich in symbolism and archetypal images IM ancient images we can say that are Universal patterns or M we could say which come from the collective unconscious because remember in other episodes that we talk about Yung went deeper in the in the collective unconscious so I think the we can talk a little bit later about the symbol the symbol the different of symbols to Freud and Yung but the main thing is that uh Yung didn't agree with frud that we have an inner sensor that this guy is this image so the what is repressed can be discharged the energy can be dis discharg Yung is said that actually there is um kind of an intelligence uh and we talked in previous episode about the higher self right our higher Consciousness that is evolving and and that is learning with

Yung is said that actually there is um kind of an intelligence uh and we talked in previous episode about the higher self right our higher Consciousness that is evolving and and that is learning with this experience in this life but it's different and it's wiser than the ego than the our the ego our Consciousness that we use to adaptation for adaptation in this life so for youung uh the higher self what which you calls the self capital S uh uh knows much more than the ego and dreams are all and the S symbolisms and the the issues that the dreams brings the messages are all orchestrated let's say by the self our higher self and our messages for the ego for the development and achievement of the psych goals in this life I'm not sure that's okay so I would love to if everybody's f because it's quite a difference for Freud you know it's all disguised and it's about all about dis charging energy of the repressed so there is a psychopathological a neurotic things mechanism let's say in the psych uh in the construction of dreams and for Yung is totally different Yung say well dreams can seems like something very strange alien to the ego because the ego is not used to this symbolic language but they are very important for this conversation let's say between our higher self to use the term that we have used in the previous episode and the ego so that our site can evolve can I say something before before we go because I'm dying to hear from Jada with a a now a third um explanation if you a third lenses of what dreams are or dream interpretation from a spiritual perspective but what I find it interesting here is uh we talked before uh in the idea of uh plitude right that Joanna d'angel brings to us or individuation that idea of one we are one and and being one is not only um uh ensuring that we are connected with our ego our center of our Consciousness and our self which is our soul our Immortal spirit in that connection even though they are somehow disconnected is creating that integration that leads to

with our ego our center of our Consciousness and our self which is our soul our Immortal spirit in that connection even though they are somehow disconnected is creating that integration that leads to that individuation and that also includes the what we accept right in our context of the Persona that we cre create and what we sometimes don't accept and we repress in our shadow and that goes into the deep deep recesses of our unconscious but it doesn't matter it's still the individual the the the the the individuating individual if I may say so and and how we go through that process the mechanism of having dreams to bring about and it's up to us to really become I think if you so desire masters of interpreting our own uh messages from ourselves then it becomes yet another mechanism for this H selfis Discovery this this this path that it is indeed bringing us to that Final Destination which is the individuation does this make sense my how I understood everyone because it's all about a par Paradox right or polarities it's it's physical and it's spiritual it is uh mind and and in and the psyche or the brain and the mind and the psyche it is the ego and the self th those but those are all components of the one which is what we are right just s would you like to tell us about spiritism and what does spir is bring uh about dreams right because it's quite Rich right anay quite quite Rich discussion here I think uh when we are talking about this subject oh so first hello everyone H how good to be here again with you know Marcia and Ana and all of you that are following us we've been writing your comments and and really feeling so much joy that uh we are somehow giving our small contrib ution to help us us all in this unknown or known journey of discovering our soul but uh what we talk about uh dreams is is very intriguing that this uh it's something that has been on the minds of people since the beginning of times we see different reports on the Bible the Old Testament and how they they play

reams is is very intriguing that this uh it's something that has been on the minds of people since the beginning of times we see different reports on the Bible the Old Testament and how they they play important parts in the the conducting of especially the Hebrew people but also you know in in Egypt and all of that we have stories of uh rulers that had their um wise people to come and interpreted inter interpreted that their their dreams the uh in the The Babylon uh King that I I'm not so sure if I'm going to pronounce his name nebur in English is quite a complication the name but he also had dreams and the Prophet Daniel would be you know um talking about it and and so it is there it is always something that intrigues people how come you know I go I I I I sleep I go into Oblivion but at the same time it's not Oblivion what is that and of course the only rush and then we go to everything that an is talking about when scholar you know he started studying and and and and analyzing my more about it it's uh then came Freud and then came Yung and they brought different concepts in in relation to who we are like we are much more than just you know the uh the conscious but we have other levels in our mind that not necessarily are at play all the time and of course there is a lot of confusion although it was revolutionary what they they they have bring it they have brought and and and the contribution they gave and are still giving because those are things that we have to take into consideration you know the role of the Mind the unconsciousness level and how it plays with our desires and symbolisms and all all of that at the same time we we we we we realize that there is a void that or a gap that it's they could not fill up there is something missing it's like you know the missing link of the life of the dream and this is where spiritism come bringing um a different P pers not not not a different perspective but but adding up to what we are we already have in the FI where human beings could

ife of the dream and this is where spiritism come bringing um a different P pers not not not a different perspective but but adding up to what we are we already have in the FI where human beings could analyze while on Earth incarnate in our you know physical bodies we we have limits to what we can really analyze research and scientifically prove but there are things that we cannot and so that's why in terms of the scholar sometimes it's uh difficult for them to go to the next step and then is when spiritism comes Joan DeAngelis comes and uh of course in her purpose of connecting all of that really trying to lead us to get to know ourselves right and to understand Us in the when we are awake but also understanding that when our physical body is sleeping it is still us and yes we are responsible for everything that we are going to be doing in this lip State as well no no place for you know repressive conduct anything like that and everything of course is started with spiritism when we learn especially in the spirits book that we are more than just the physical body that we are a spirit and that we H have a spiritual body that connects matter and a spirit life and when we are going through this process of sleeping and this is the reason why also there is a great emphasis in how we prepare prepare our ourselves to sleep uh you know trying to you know be as much in balance in balance as possible you know we know that sometimes we have so difficult days worries and Etc and we take everything to bed with us that we shouldn't but it it is there it's not in our mind so one thing that spiritism tells us is exactly that that at the time of sleep if we could prepare ourselves better regardless if you are worried concerned and uh you know in an ill disposition not healthy uh per se as much as you can you should try to calm yourself down because then is when you are going to be living your body resting but your spirit goes to New Adventures and this is when Joanna d' angelist comes and explains what happens so she

o calm yourself down because then is when you are going to be living your body resting but your spirit goes to New Adventures and this is when Joanna d' angelist comes and explains what happens so she goes to the point of saying in this book moral laws there is a message that is called at the time of sleep that yes we we have the archived Memories We have uh you know not and then you know when she's talking about that she she goes so far beyond than than than Freud and young because now it's not just saying you are a spirit and you live a life of spirit while you are sleeping but it's reincarnation you are Immortal Spirits so there are so many more lives so many more memories for you to access that it's not just the collective archetype it's it's memories that you bring and and traumas and and um and successes that you bring from our Incarnation and everything because of you know the different times and how we are you know even up all the the ne tuning up all the necessary uh pieces uh that constitutes us as a complete in integral uh being uh it will come to surface per uh it's interesting because in some some books they say that we may be living now uh uh experiences that are related to 2,000 years ago because that's awesome huh yeah only now I can actually uh deal with them the cold hold them uh get that we are not talking here about making amends we are not talk talking about Karma necessarily we are talking about uh let's say that I was a disciple of Socrates I chose and but then you know I I didn't uh I didn't benefit from that in the sense I I I didn't know uh how much that value at that point but philosophy was always there and the life of him was always there but then I have I don't know five six seven eight lifetimes that no but now that I you know I come in a different circumstances and there are certain things that I have you know to check in my curriculum my curriculum you know eternal life curriculum I'm going to refer to that time and all that that is also you know

cumstances and there are certain things that I have you know to check in my curriculum my curriculum you know eternal life curriculum I'm going to refer to that time and all that that is also you know talking about Socrates Jesus words of life eternal it is going to make an impact now and it may come in a form of a dream so when of the Angeles is talking about that you know it's not just the unconscious because many times we may call the unconscious actually the life of the spirit so let me give you some time so what are your thoughts I love I love to know that Jada was Plato's best friend but not the best student of Socrates t t but let's let's go back right several incarnations ago and at some point the dreams that are resurface may be something lived Millennia ago but it's part of your archives right and it's coming through in the quote unquote magic is how do you access it no longer Plato's best friend but now J in in the you know uh 2020s living in New York City how does she access through her dreams what she already knew back back qu so what are your thoughts how can we undo yes go ahead um because I want to I want to include in that the emotional Conta sure let's let's say that I I I lived at the time of Jesus and I met Jesus and I heard and I saw some of you know the teachings and examples of but of course 2,000 years ago if I'm not that great today imagine a thousand years ago so I heard it I didn't benefit exactly from that but it stay there now finally I'm ready uh to look at Jesus teachings Jesus examples and go into a different path okay this is one thing that I have now and that I can have access to the the the the words the examples but now if I connect emotionally to the time that I was there it is going to be even more uh powerful correct going to increase in the sense uh now I understand now I relate you see so it is this is the reason why sometimes yes we are going to access certain information or or experiences because now that I can have the rational I I I I will remember

nderstand now I relate you see so it is this is the reason why sometimes yes we are going to access certain information or or experiences because now that I can have the rational I I I I will remember now the way that Jes look at me was yeah this is going to be giving a totally different perspective in in me just studying analyzing and trying to follow in his footsteps today there is an yeah love it when you like that that certain dessert that your mother used to do I mean it may not be the best dessert in the world but there is an emotional context to that absolutely I I can I can relate to that when going to Brazil for the first time with my husband who happens to be American and I spent months explaining to him the taste of a mango right from receip where I'm from the northeast of Brazil and he tastes it and he goes yuck it is too bitter it is this it's not the memories of that experience it was quite magical to me because it relate to my childhood and in in in all of it but back to uh just a friend of Plato or just uh in the footsteps of Jesus Christ so there's that emotional content to the message that thousands years later Jada is ready to to resurface um an now from a from a psychological psychotherapeutical or or or or analytical Viewpoint how can we break down this this component of dream interpretation yes I I was listening to you guys and to J and thinking also about Jesus teachings okay because we know many of us not all of us yet 2,000 years is was not uh time enough for some people but we are getting all we are all getting there that it's the most as J say J jel um it's a a psychological I think the mo most complete psychological textbook if we can say psychological and spiritual text for our um spiritual growth and development of our Consciousness and he would uh talk in uh parabs right the teachings so using a lot of metaphors that um that um traveled through different times and cultures because our archetyp of like said they have ancient they have ancient

uh talk in uh parabs right the teachings so using a lot of metaphors that um that um traveled through different times and cultures because our archetyp of like said they have ancient they have ancient images like the image of the sacrifice okay Jesus in the cross is an example of the sacrifice of love right for all the the ultimate love the love that the creator has to for all of us so it's a and also the love that um we must develop towards ourselves and our neighbors right and to develop this love we have to um be able to withstand let's say with support the different forces that that try to um to pull us to different directions let's say right like in the cross we have to be able bble to to hold th those different forces uh as you were saying Mar in the beginning to to be a whole to to be let's say one and to join our different experiences Parts aspects feelings memories and imagine as you started saying from many many past lives not only as Janna says not only this life but many past lives and many times we know the spirit evolving that exactly as Jada said uh we haven't learned probably things from past lives but uh the learning the integration of all that learning from that experience probably we will be able to integrate okay to to make a whole of those experiences feelings thoughts connected to them in some later past lives because I have to acquire some cognition as a spirit not only as a personality uh some experiences uh develop feelings that I I need to evolve uh inside of myself so at some point like using just as Plato's best friend yes or as we would also love to and of course he uh uh he has us Jesus as our all of us as best brothers and sisters of course but we need to feel him to be uh feel that we are worth his love he he loves all of us but we have this um this need to deep in our higher self to be worth all you know this love so I think this is a motive of evolution we we it's the light that calls to us and uh help us to evolve the light of this love that Jesus represents

our higher self to be worth all you know this love so I think this is a motive of evolution we we it's the light that calls to us and uh help us to evolve the light of this love that Jesus represents to us and brings to us that's why he is the path to the Creator right because he's teaching us this love and um so uh let's go back to J as an example so something that my soul my spirit wasn't able to to understand and has to wait for some for a development of different parts of myself let's say this to simplify and at some point in one Incarnation let's say this Incarnation well now I'm a I'm not a child anymore I'm a teenager I have some understanding spiritual teenager I have some better understand of some and some more experiences and U my thinking and feeling it's a little more evolved so I can connect to some teaching uh that I haven't been able previously so what happens uh then comes our higher self because all this uh memories all this learning is in the higher self not in our poor small egos right that is suffering here to adaptation but uh is doing the job here in this uh life of this learning but has to be as Mara said in the beginning connected to the higher self because otherwise won't will lose its direction and the purpose of this life what I'm here to learn right so there comes the symbols because um you know that we were talking about Jesus teachings uh he used a lot of metaphors a lot of symbolic language because he was not talking to the ego of those people ourselves whatever uh that were so childish okay and so aggressive and so lost in so with little cognition even with all we like to think of ourselves oh I I know a lot our scientific our science science has developed so much and this and that but we are let's face it still like teenagers Spirit um so at that point it was worse we were like children you know really uh but uh spiritual children but okay now I have grown up and a little bit more I understand a little bit more but to talk but now I'm reincarnated using much you

we were like children you know really uh but uh spiritual children but okay now I have grown up and a little bit more I understand a little bit more but to talk but now I'm reincarnated using much you out abroad and of course I don't have access to my higher self direct access so how how can the higher self talk to the ego so one of the things and that Yung studies this a lot is through dreams and the symbolic language because it's going to be symbolic for us here the eagle as and Jesus knew that of course much better than everyone and Joanna has learned a a lot with you know with him and with St Francis we all know that she tells us about that uh so what we have to do we have to learn our own personal Soul language let's say learn our own symbols our own symbolic because my symbols are not going to be the same for why for for instance if I dream with a table the table we have a will have a symbolic meaning the essence can be the same but it's going to manifest in my psych as a symbolism of something really uh special or particular from myself and it's going to be and if Jada dreams with about um a table and Mara dreams it's going to be different because of the individuation process because of our uh specific um meat uh sacred stories things that we are here to learn so I think um we are ready to talk about symbolism but I think I don't know if Jada and Mara end the talking with the soul that just got to introduce through all the beautiful uh knowledge and examples that Joanna and the spir is uh knowledge brings to us but I'm not quite sure is it going to are we going to part two or do we yes let's let's go ahead and uh close up here so this will lead you to the next episode when we'll we'll zoom in into the language of the Soul or or those symbolic translation and uh with that I just want to say thank you for both of you we we really started this discussion today about dreams and we talked about Freud we talked about Yung we talked about that spiritual understanding we

that I just want to say thank you for both of you we we really started this discussion today about dreams and we talked about Freud we talked about Yung we talked about that spiritual understanding we brought Joanna d'angeles a lot in her book of moral laws right at J but I think we can spend the next episode really deep diving into the idea of uh uh its interpretation with that I just want to say if you if you have not uh really been exposed to the works of Joanna d'angeles this is a a plug for all of you Joanna deangeles is a spiritual author that in close collaboration with dealdo Pera Franco has uh authored um 16 books they're part of the uh uh psychological uh collection or the psych psychological series and they are really uh a series of books and most of them are small right they're tiny but quite dense with the with the teachings and I love that we get to to speak and bring some of the content into those uh discussions that we have here so what is so special about Jonah deangel she she created that bridge between spiritism and depth psychology so it is truly my great pleasure to be here and Host this amazing discussions around those issues and perhaps some root causes and perhaps some potential solutions to our issues that we have every day so with that I say thank you Jada thank you anai and we'll see you next week bye everyone bye-bye