Ep 33 - How do I let go after Experiencing Loss?

hello everyone welcome to the psychology and spirituality a bridge to a better life discussion I'm your host Marano and with me today is a very special guest Susanna Simo Susanna is an active worker of the spiritist movement Dr Simo spends her time between her professional work as a doctor of physical therapy her family and the important work of the dissemination of spiritism Susanna has worked as a member of the spiritist Federation of Florida the United State spiritist Federation and she's one of the founders of the conscious living spiritist group in Miami Florida where she works primarily over C the work in English she's an active speaker in the US and abroad and I'm very very happy to be with you today Susanna for those who are here uh and maybe have not U seen our topics before our episode of psychology and spirituality is a program that is brought to you by many organizations such as Amy Brazil the United States Spirits Federation TV mans and intern National spiritist Council but today's episode specifically is brought to you by our friends at conscious living spiritist Group which is a nonprofit organization located as I said in Miami Florida if you're interested in learning more about this organization please visit cg.o please hit subscribe and um you receive notifications about next presentations but with that um I also invite all of you to uh send us your feedback your questions your comments uh in the chat window and we will reach out to you when we are able to but let me get back to you Susanna it is so so good to have you back in our program and um today we're going to discuss another aspect of which your already discussed right this whole idea of Joanna deangeles approach to life and death and specifically we touched upon death and dying but we're here to talk perhaps the about the other side of the equation which is a bit about those who are left behind right how can we should we in this in this manner deal with the loss of a loved one or Susanna how can we prepare ourselves if you will

e of the equation which is a bit about those who are left behind right how can we should we in this in this manner deal with the loss of a loved one or Susanna how can we prepare ourselves if you will in this lifelong journey of detaching from this idea of uh say ownership in and what we mean by that is the concept that is almost inherent in all of us in our existence of owning of possessing and we do that with things but we also extrapolate that with uh people ideology life cycles right uh and and and we we just go through stages of uh grieve not only when we lose someone but when we lose those things as well so in any case uh before we start suzan and I'm gonna ask you to to go ahead and take the Bic from me but um I know that uh you researched uh a lot of the the information from today's conversation from the book plitude this book is um uh been written by the Joanna d'angeles in collaboration with theal Franco and it's available both in English and Spanish and Portuguese so Susanna thank you so much and please take it away hi Maria hello to everyone to you to everyone who is um listening watching um this program I'm very happy to be back as Maria mentioned um I was year before we did talk uh for close to an hour about dying and leaving and looking at the meaning and the impact of these experiences and today our goal is to go over a little bit of how we can you know you you were asking the question I'm like wow there's so much to say you ask so many different aspects so I'm going to pick one so we can start which um is I think how do we prepare um um to kind of lose right someone we'll get to that verb in a little bit but um a lot of it has to do with the challenges of attachment how attached uh we become to things to people to material life and how it's important to practice Detachment whether we are uh looking into own dying process eventually or dealing with uh someone a loved one who is uh dying and there are some actually really real challenges with Detachment one of them

chment whether we are uh looking into own dying process eventually or dealing with uh someone a loved one who is uh dying and there are some actually really real challenges with Detachment one of them is that God being the Divine engineer architect artist whatever you want to call it right um created this physical body and added to our Incarnation process uh the Instinct of conservation Jan is going to um to talk about it she talks about she used terms such as the imposition of the physical body so that's one aspect that makes it very difficult for us to detach the physical body is so dense is so coarse when we are incarnated our perceptions of anything outside of matter is extremely extremely limited and therefore it's we lose sight of who we are essentially that's one aspect it becomes very difficult you really have to make an effort a cognitive effort to think outside of the concrete to bring that spiritual reality into your daytoday living and experience of life itself in addition to that the she talks about the Instinct of conservation that um it's necessary it's important because life is so tough is so difficult that it helps us to find the strength to stay to stay the time that we need to stay to endure the trials that we need to endure within the physical body so all those things the the imposition of the physical body the presence of the Instinct of conservation um contribute for us to be attached to this physical life and then we start to perceive this life as the real life and we perceive anything and everything including people to be belong to us right so like you mentioned that sense of ownership so much so that we say my mother my father my son and I think we did mention before you know um no no one belongs to anyone these are all temporary situations um it's all borrowed uh we have to return and so she will you know bring our to the need for instance to to practice this mindset with everything with our relationships included she talks about the importance of thinking

uh we have to return and so she will you know bring our to the need for instance to to practice this mindset with everything with our relationships included she talks about the importance of thinking of our loved ones our affections and understanding that they will walk with us to the edge of the grave but from that point on and she used exactly this expression you know we'll have to go separate ways um temporarily uh but also we are Immortal spirits and each one of us has a very unique individual Journey so love is the most powerful force in the universe we can always find people meet each other be together but we have individual paths that no one can walk for us we have to to attend to our very specific and personal spiritual needs yes so I think that's um because a lot of times people will say to me uh I I I think I'm good because I don't feel that attached to material things but they don't realize that yeah maybe they're not attached to a car or a house but they're very much attached to their family for example and and that becomes a a a huge obstacle in dealing in a healthy way with loss and separation and death can I can I uh share some things a very a personal story yeah sure sus but about 30 years ago so a long time ago I volunteered to be part of a work with the terminal patients hospice patients and to do that we had to go through a strous training and one of them was to deal with grieving and loss um and part of it you should say they the training they started with uh boxes of Kleenex boxes plural and I'm like oh oh what's going on here and they went through this uh several hours actually where we would progressively write down the name of something or thought process or whatever and fiction of course we would lose it and put in a in a pretend fire and it was very interesting because each person it was a group of people but each person would go and and start doing but they kept putting up a notch right all the way till you lose your child I mean you you lost your pet you lost your

each person it was a group of people but each person would go and and start doing but they kept putting up a notch right all the way till you lose your child I mean you you lost your pet you lost your house you lost your dog um sorry your your car you lost your uh job you lost you you keep losing right and and the the the further you do it the harder it is and some of us cried convulsively through that process and I never forgot of course 30 years later I'm still talking about it but the fact is am I ready to lose no I'm not it it this exercise does not prepare me for significant loss when that occurs but it awakens in US exactly how how important this conversation is how important is for all of us to start dealing and reflecting and and understanding within ourselves how attached we are and why in fact we are so attached to to to things people etc etc right so I think it's very important very timely uh your discussion today Susanna but um go ahead I just the thought came to my mind as you speak I think that's great and it brings to another topic that she highlights which is the Frailty of life um even when we feeling the strongest all it takes is touching the point of a very sharpen infected uh object to really bring us down and you know I speaking about personal experiences this week I attended the funeral of um the brother of uh a therapist that worked for me and he died in a motorcycle accident at the age of 31 and as I entered that funeral home um I found my um employee I mean she was like she was like so so so incredibly devastated and I have already spoken to her over the phone and and it's like we don't we don't think that those things are going to happen we like uh we don't conceive the idea of what is called premature uh losses um which you menion as well and one will talk specifically about uh that topic um but it just kind of highlighted to me again the importance of talking about those things thinking about those things and really how incredibly um privilege we are to have

ically about uh that topic um but it just kind of highlighted to me again the importance of talking about those things thinking about those things and really how incredibly um privilege we are to have all this information that although will not remove the pain and the very difficult experience because she does talk about it she actually says there is no equal pain than the pain of the loss of a loved one um her words and she will say that um that we need to do all those things that sometimes we become a little judgmental but we we need to cry we need to talk about our loved one we need to really undergo the the grieving process you know because it's it is that painful it is that challenging for our um Humanity but and there's a sorry to interrupt but I I I want to to to hear your thought my apologies but uh it's also maybe important to think Beyond um the process there is that authorities that goes through with just right just to pour your pain and your sorrow through the grieving process but through it I I would love to to hear perhaps from you Susan if we can also discuss about is it is it a grieving for the loss of the loved one but it's also grieving for aspects of guilt and other types of things that we carry within us as it relates to that loved one yeah I mean uh grief is always uh complex he never black and white right A lot of times grief is um accumulated there's a lot of uh unfinished grieving that accumulates in one specific loss in addition all the the guilt uh The Unfinished Business um there are a lot of times is part of uh that process and here is where um well self forgiveness uh plays a big role forgiving of the other but also the spirit is on this philosophy that tells us that there is really no business will ever be unfinished um sooner or later life will bring the opportunities for all business to be taken care of so it's a matter of time and even when our loved one is on the other side we still can continue to work on the business because although we are

g the opportunities for all business to be taken care of so it's a matter of time and even when our loved one is on the other side we still can continue to work on the business because although we are separated physically we remain connected mentally and emotionally so whatever work you want to continue to do within yourself is healing the relationship even though the person is not right there in front of you so it's kind of cool that way because it you know maybe ands um the the relationship as it was in that level but it continues in a different level and in uh different ways so can I add something else to it because as you're talking about it I love it I love that you're saying this but just for our audience um some of the tenants of spiritism and uh Susanna is a spiritist as we talked about before as we introduced her but some of the tenets in addition to the belief in reincarnation right Susanna which uh also is the belief inherent belief in life uh it's one life but existence after existence after existence so the Continuum in one life but many deaths and many birth births but uh one of the things that also part of spiritism is the um communication between the spiritual dimension in the material Dimension as you as you mentioned here that is also evidence through authorship spiritual authors through the collaboration of many amazing uh individuals that are um dedicated and committed their lives into uh their mediumship right but one of the the items that just popped in my mind now Susanna was a tiny little book it was one of the probably one of the first books that I read as a young person a spiritous book uh which is an account by this 19-year-old uh young woman who passed on she disincarnate uh she died and um she sends the message of how it was her life upon her death I don't know if you read the book violets in the window it's it's really cute it's very accessible but it's beautiful because it really talks about what you're saying here Susanna that uh uh elaborate and meaningful and

read the book violets in the window it's it's really cute it's very accessible but it's beautiful because it really talks about what you're saying here Susanna that uh uh elaborate and meaningful and longstanding relationship between those who go in the case uh the spirit I think her name was Patricia and those who left behind her her parents right and and how that uh relationship of love in many cases of other types of emotions continue throughout that um that separation temporary separation through death of the corporeal body yeah she us an expression that's interesting she says that that is part of the trials of Love um so you know it's it's gives us an opportunity to um expand the concept of love so love beyond the material Love For Eternity love that is you know we come in to um our families any specific relationships or have different relationships through our lives but at the bottom of every single one of them the higher purpose is for us to learn to love one another as brothers and sisters under God and so this uh this temporary separation is a trial for our love a lot of times love will grow love will expand love will take different um angles add different angles to it you know and so it's kind of a beautiful uh way that she uh puts it and she will say that you know um again um no one belongs to anyone so that's something important for us to uh keep in mind but also one of the things that she will say can help softening the pain of loss is gratitude so it's when you know in thinking of our loved ones and going through the grief process we can connect with the gratitude for having that person for having that love in our lives for the time that that person was with us and everything that we learn and everything that we witness and everything that we exchange and let that awareness and that love fills you and be transformed into this deep sense of gratitude that instead of walking each day um in despair you walk in emptiness you actually F the cup some with the

et that awareness and that love fills you and be transformed into this deep sense of gratitude that instead of walking each day um in despair you walk in emptiness you actually F the cup some with the Gratitude and the wonderful memories that actually help you shape you into who you have become and will continue to live through you in everything that you do and in the contributions that you make to life that person that loved one is with you in that way so she talks about the importance of developing this sense of gratitude and that how that helps in dealing with this um difficult uh loss m how do you do that Susanna how do we develop uh this sense of gratitude um just to plug in um I don't know if you read this but uh uh Joanna d'angeles has published I think it was the last book in her psychological series called the psychology of gratitude right and it goes really deep in many different topics but just to just for you to take it away right how do we develop gratitude is this something is it a muscle if you will that we we develop or is it something that is just within us no we develop um it develops just like love can be learned uh and develops as well so is gratitude and this is an outstanding book um from Joanna and she the very beginning will Define gratitude uh making a difference uh between just being grateful for something received with this level of gratitude that is more um transaction it's Vis it's like you know and it comes from an understanding of what life is in essence and coming from an understanding and a certainty that God in life is always always conspiring for our betterment so I love it I love it whatever comes your way is there to to make you to to to promote to develop to unveil The Light Within so good things bad things as we label right they all all are they they come to you God never ever different than our male system will deliver to the wrong address it's not your door it's meant to be for you okay not for your neighbor and arrive in your house for a very

y come to you God never ever different than our male system will deliver to the wrong address it's not your door it's meant to be for you okay not for your neighbor and arrive in your house for a very specific reason when you are certain that God is your partner is has your back and is with you and for you in everything you start to develop little by little this sense of gratitude and even so Life Starts to be look and felt and experienced from a very very very different Paradigm and even what we call premature losses for example that we were talking about and the example that I gave that is so incredibly difficult can now be interpreted felt and experienced in a different way absolutely I I I wanted to do something at Hawk here Susanna and maybe I I'm going to ask you and myself and everyone who's here with us today through this this uh uh talk to perhaps for 10 seconds think about your worst moment that you ever live through in your entire lifetime the worst the the the most painful and as you and I have to close my eyes I'm sorry but as you close your eyes and you reflect upon that key moment of extreme pain also think about of all all the good things that came because of it that stemmed from it and it's amazing when we start to look at it long term and we move our judgment which is immediate judgment right you said the label of good or bad comes from our very uh perception and understanding yes yes which is usually material can start with that and we can say well let's start to add on to beyond the material immediate perception of a a point in time in our lives to the emotional concept the intellectual Dimensions but most important that spiritual Dimension that is eternal right that is it it just not Eternal but Immortal from a our soul perspective so when we look look at those things that were challenging that were hurtful they are painful and today at this very moment as I'm talking to you we can start to see all the good things that happened that resulted from

ok at those things that were challenging that were hurtful they are painful and today at this very moment as I'm talking to you we can start to see all the good things that happened that resulted from it we start to also see the pain of loss equally right it it it we start to take away remove the veil of our own judgment of our own limited perception as you put it Susanna to to something that there is suffering involved but how can we somehow shift that Paradigm into something that is not said so much but it is just part of that life cycle that cyclical nature of our life cycle as Eternal and um not Eternal I keep using the wrong term Immortal Souls yeah yeah a lot of times um we're not able to see immediately um those benefits a lot of times those more like tragic or very hard moments um although at the moment again we cannot understand what it is to be learned or or or or seen they will reshape our lives and we see a lot of times people who undergo very tragic difficult losses taking that pain and making into something wonderful um for the community or or for themselves a lot of times are through these hardships that people for instance will awaken for different values for they will have different insights into life they will be shaken out of their comfort zones and attuned to things that were secondary to them up to that point A lot of times it is not until we are uh crushed by pain that we think of God for the first time in our lives you know even if it is true curse but maybe you didn't even think of God but now you're like having a conversation with god maybe you're very angry at God but you're acknowledging God that's that's you know that's that's the beginning progress progress yes that is progress you know and again this is I think when um the spiritual knowledge and I think think you know Jan does again um I just want to highlight that pretty much all her books on the psychological series do have a chapter that will talk either about death or a loss or or or

and I think think you know Jan does again um I just want to highlight that pretty much all her books on the psychological series do have a chapter that will talk either about death or a loss or or or Detachment whatever might be related to to the issue which is really um interesting but she will she will my screen went black for a second I was like oh my God die in front of me but it's just while you recover maybe uh it would be a good plug here um a mutual friend uh she's in Florida you know her quite well hosana dea she's Brazilian but she's doing a beautiful beautiful work uh dealing with grieve right where her loss and uh she I'm I feel free to talk about it because she she speaks very openly about she lost right her first child she was very young true uh and and um two children right and then the second child uh she died not long after that and the extreme grief without support and that's where she she really uh her work that she's doing is to help us understand um the emotional landscape of such a painful uh experience that you really you don't know what to do how to act how to think how what to believe and she's she's doing a lot of work in in entering in confronting in accepting that grief specifically and I think if you if you haven't uh you listener who have not heard about it I highly recommend that uh you research um and I forgot the name of her organization project called um Embrace loss and grief that's that's good yeah yes I'm actually part of it um I have done the training um on the project and um I'm in one of the groups uh embracing people with uh with loss and it's very um it's it's something to witness to read to hear about what people go through and their struggles in these uh time period a lot of times our parents who have uh lost a child and are having a difficult time uh understanding they are having a difficult time seeing how they can still find meaning yes in their lives after uh you know having lost um a child and Jan is going to mention uh that you know that is used

erstanding they are having a difficult time seeing how they can still find meaning yes in their lives after uh you know having lost um a child and Jan is going to mention uh that you know that is used usually uh detested by um by Humanity but particularly when H it takes away uh a youngster someone with um you know a promising uh future but she will um reframe it one by saying that there is no real loss loss the verb to lose is displaced under the spiritual perspective because we can only lose what we have and again um you know we don't really have uh someone else like we don't own anyone so understanding that is a first point the second point that she brings is always to look at that as the great Liberator those are the words that she uses um so that requires an incredible change changing perspective you have to do like a mental exercise to understand that we uh we see the material life is the real life and um she puts it um not only she talks about people who are premature departures but also the departure of the of the good uh she says that when someone good dies for us is an aberration because really the bad one should die not the good one so whether we are looking at the death of a good person of a child she says that she puts this all together and say look that is The Liberation is freedom for the spirit that means that that Spirit has accomplished his time uh for the spirit to be incarnated in this physical body is to be limited incredibly limited is to be in prison the spirit is constantly constantly aspiring to be free and so when a spirit is given the opportunity to leave we have to exercise our minds and to think he or she is free he or she completed their mission now my job is to stay behind INF fulfill mind and again if you can connect with gratitude we know Also spiritually speaking that a lot of times we have um agree in receiving a spirit as a son or a daughter for a short period of time to help that spirit in accomplishing uh their task but also as

ow Also spiritually speaking that a lot of times we have um agree in receiving a spirit as a son or a daughter for a short period of time to help that spirit in accomplishing uh their task but also as part of our learning and our growth and a lot of times behind that growth is the acceptance of God's will above ours which is very challenging because we do the Lord's Prayer we say thy will be done but we um often not in it I know it's terrible but our way let's be truthful here right yes again it's just I don't mean to I think one thing that Maria that I would like to say and and make it very clear to anyone who might be listening is whatever pain you undergo and whatever feelings you have they are um valid and they are important the goal here is not to diminish and to invalidate anyone's experience we are not in a position even to say like how long uh should you grieve this is a very uh particular and personal um experience because two people may lose a child exactly the same age but who they are their Journey up to that point their inner experiences their story in this lifetime in the course of everything is going to add to the context of Griff it's going to color that process in very uh specific ways so what we are seeing here here is we are just trying to enhance the landscape enhance one's vision and understanding of life so that through the grief process through your mourning you can feel that you are still being held by the Faith by the understanding and that there is life beyond that difficult moment there is meaning and there is Beauty and there is a purpose for everything under Heaven yeah yeah that's beautiful thank you thank you for saying those things and I I I want to Echo those words this is not to diminish by any means I think uh in listening to our friend hosana in in her project that's exactly what she brings about Let's uh listen to the pain Let's uh honor the the the the moments of of grief because they they're critical but let's also help you in I'm putting words

r project that's exactly what she brings about Let's uh listen to the pain Let's uh honor the the the the moments of of grief because they they're critical but let's also help you in I'm putting words in her mouth uh help you navigate this sea of emotions that can be just too overwhelming for you to to just wake up and and and be functional again there's a a story uh that's very interesting in my mind's eye suzan which is the the notion of um death especially premature death as you mentioned earlier right someone who you know when we talk about oh I'm I think um we we talked about some of your patients right that were 104 106 and as longevity human longevity keeps expanding we we we no longer have that expectation that by 65 75 85 this is it uh we but even at that length of time we are shocked but let's pretend it's different in our reaction when we say oh this 31y old man at the brink of really all the greatness that we all assume him or her to be right uh versus somebody who has had a long life and it's at the end and it's just right right concluding it but regardless of of of it all there's the notion of um that uh young one I'm I'm going to focus here my thought process on the young the premature death uh as someone who's going on a trip on a journey right an adventure and let's say I am the young one I'm not young but that's pretend what I am and I'm going to I don't know to Antarctica for for an expedition and and and I have so many fears of my own to get there what am I going to eat how I'm going to stay warm etc etc but for those who are left behind if they just you know despair over the possibilities and risks inherent of that expedition it will add to my anxiety instead of helping me Traverse help me overcome my own anxieties and I think that's what we're talking perhaps a little bit about the process of dying and the process of losing someone we're not losing anyone yes we're not right they're going to an expedition in Antarctica perhaps in in a metaphorical manner right yes

bit about the process of dying and the process of losing someone we're not losing anyone yes we're not right they're going to an expedition in Antarctica perhaps in in a metaphorical manner right yes and and and that gives me a chance to bring another uh concept that sheit talks about and that I um really um like and like to talk about for people to think about it which is uh what she calls retentive selfishness so when we we are um at times uh wanting to keep someone with us um there are many stances where we really not thinking of the person we're thinking of ourselves um we are the center of you know uh our actions and feelings um sometimes you might have someone who is so ready to go uh physically mentally and you have all the loved ones you know holding uh that person with their thoughts with you know their prayers and and she invites you to think you know who is at the center here is is the E person or is you are you doing this for the person or are you doing this for you so she says that you know she calls it uh retentive selfishness so we are trying to keep people for ourselves and we we do so uh you know out of kind of love um kind of a selfish love but also um as a result of our again spiritual ignorance and understanding that this year is All Temporary it's really temporary um it is like as if we are you know we left home I'm going to take your your example or analogy with the trip right so you travel back but you travel here when you travel here uh we take we travel it's it's a camping experience we on tents tents are not made for us to stay permanently tents are temporary so we are here in tents and they are frail and there's a time that we have to go back home no one can survive a lifetime in a tent you have to go back home so the more that we can understand life from this point of view will be able to do what she talks about several times which is to actually rejoice when someone leaves It seems impossible it seems like are you crazy but when you are

and life from this point of view will be able to do what she talks about several times which is to actually rejoice when someone leaves It seems impossible it seems like are you crazy but when you are convinced of your immortality not mentally but spiritually emotionally when you are so certain of it you it's very much like okay we were together in this school gosh you graduated congratulations you know so the funeral will be yeah a mixture of feelings sadness well it's going to be a little while until I'm be able to see you again physically but guess what you are moving forward you are going to the next phase of your life you are going now to reap the fruits of all this experience and the learning I am happy for you I Rejoice with your accomplishment with your transition with the next step what life is going to bring to you so if we can put into that perspective it will definitely lighten uh the moment and we'll be able to do both we'll be able to cry and will be able to smile absolutely this is uh I think unless you have additional final words I think this wraps up really well our episode today right Susan it's it's a lot uh 40 30 40 minutes is not enough to to Really delve into um the Notions of dealing with loss and of course Detachment there are many many books uh we're here highlighting specifically the Psy olical series by Jonah deangeles and specifically we talk about two of the books right plenitude and the psychology of gratitude uh there are many many other um uh books that will help you discuss and and and and break down those Concepts uh some of the things that came to my mind Susanna while you're talking was uh actually The Gospel According to spiritism specifically chapter five I think five bless yes yes and U there's an item I think it's uh 20 that talks about the premature like a loss premature loss and uh like your message is a message of uh invitation for us to understand that strong attachment that we have to those that go before us and the ignorance I I

he premature like a loss premature loss and uh like your message is a message of uh invitation for us to understand that strong attachment that we have to those that go before us and the ignorance I I like your word your lack of awareness of those very strong relationship the bonds of love will remain and that we should rejoice as you mentioned and we should uh uh be connected after that passing of the corporeal existence the corporeal body um with that I I I think I would like to say one more thing that just popped in my mind um for you Susanna that is working with hosana dza in her in her foundation congratulations and all of you that may uh be working or have heard of it please check it out but I think it's important for us to understand there are three in the physical body there are three reasons why you die right an accident old age your organs start to just slowly fail or a terminal illness something that will prolong through time will start to interrupt the generate Your Life Source until it's it's death and all those three two of them are easier on those who stay behind old age right and that terminal disease but it's really I think I love your concept I think it was called uh a selfishness the retentive retentive selfishness yeah and then with that it's like well if it was premature and it was an accident uh maybe it was actually easier for the spirit who is disincarnate because it was abrupt and done versus the longterm potential long-term suffering right losing the youth and and losing the health of your body until it's time to move on so I think with that I just say let's think about it let's see uh is it easier for me but how can I make it easier for that spirit that is moving on into that expedition to Antarctica metaphorically speaking again and how we can enhance that experience of the departing Spirit by being linked and wishing him her well and at the same time managing our sorrows and our losses and our way that promotes that sense of gratitude for everything that person

e of the departing Spirit by being linked and wishing him her well and at the same time managing our sorrows and our losses and our way that promotes that sense of gratitude for everything that person brought to us in our experience this experience but with that Susanna do you have any parting comment no h since you brought up the gospel I will um end um bringing another concept that we find there that I think is very uh consoling which is um and I do not know it's not on chapter five but I can't um tell you exactly where it is right now but it talks about that for the spirits who love one another there is no such thing as time and distance that the spirits will find themselves in the universe there is no barriers for love ever and so um I think that's a very consoling idea it's true whether um we are all discard at or one incarnated and the other discarnated because every night we sleep and when we sleep we leave our bodies and the ones who love uh one another will look for each other and quite often when we come back and have dreams those dreams are a manifestation or a reflection of the time that we have spent with our loved ones and we did so because they are not lost and they are very much alive awesome thank you thank you Susanna thank you everyone who's been with us for the past several minutes and uh uh with this we close with this message beautiful message of love love will break distance in time challenges it's it's that the most powerful thing that we have at our disposal but with that I'll see you next time thanks everyone thank you