Ep 136 - The Sacred Instrument: Body, Spirit & the Path to Immortality

Hi. Hi everyone. Welcome to psychology and spirituality bridge to better life discussion. As you know our weekly episodes, we're here to explore this intersection between spirituality and psychology and as a result really learn a little bit in through our conversations. our you know how our flights of fancy go so that we can capture perhaps some wisdom from both fields. My name is Marcia Trojan and with me today is Louise Lima. Hi Louise, how you doing? >> Hi Marcy, I'm doing well. Thanks so much for having me today. And oh my god, it's got to be something to talk about, you know. Oh my god. >> When we go into a program like this, you know, a lot of the audience uh people in the audience, they need to understand we learn too. We're not here to give you what it is. No, we learn too. So, thanks so much. >> Yeah. And uh I'm gonna say I'm inviting you, Louise, and everybody here with us today to to get into this deeper reflection. And the reflection is something that is very tangible. It's very close to all of us, which is our body. So Louise, I wanted to to say, you know, for us to just frame our thought processes. What is this body really? Is it just a vehicle, right, that we are temporarily inhabiting or maybe something far greater? That's my assumption, right? this sacred expression of the divine intelligence or something that is really part of a spiritual that has a spiritual purpose. So uh for us it's really for me I'm just going to say for me let's think about how this engineering marvel this body that we all have are not only a part of biology but it's really of spirit and uh and I just uh wanted to know right uh what can we talk about so Let's go ahead and get started. What do you think? What are your reflections uh Louise about the life, death, and this amazing system, the body that carries us between one and the other dimension? Well, Marcia, uh, throughout the years by talking to people and doing lectures in in different places, uh, one thing that we perceive throughout the years is there's

tween one and the other dimension? Well, Marcia, uh, throughout the years by talking to people and doing lectures in in different places, uh, one thing that we perceive throughout the years is there's a tremendous, I would say, difficulty in people to understand the difference between life and death, the concepts of life and death within spiritism and outside spiritism because they're not the same and they're radically different. So I think it's a good starting point that we can probably uh set set the record straight here if you will. >> So for example, life for the average uh outside spiritist >> for the average person in a society whatever society it is we're talking about humanity here >> uh it it can mean different things. There's not a a a common sense of when is the starting point and that creates trouble with things that are related to the point where life begins like abortion and so and so which is another discussion. But why is that so complicated? Because there's not a clear definition of when life starts. >> Yeah. >> The same way death is the same thing. There's not a clear definition of when life ends. So should I, you know, disconnect the equipment that, you know, holds the person alive in a hospital? Should I not? Is the person still living is a vegetative state? Why is that? Because there are no clear definitions. Okay. >> Yeah, it's a good point, right? If if if we're giving a catalog or a mathematical precision just a a mathematically precise point to say this is when it starts, this is when it ends. Then those even moral discussions that you're bringing to us, right? The birth uh abortion uh and death ethnia. >> Yeah. Ethonia, all of it. It could be easier because then we would not grapple with very moral ethical dilemma that we have. But despite that, tell us tell us what is the what can you tell us about this this definitions of life and death. >> Yeah, the definition of life and death uh both of them spiritism is very clearcut black and white.

t, tell us tell us what is the what can you tell us about this this definitions of life and death. >> Yeah, the definition of life and death uh both of them spiritism is very clearcut black and white. >> Okay. >> Uh at conception is when life starts. So just imagine the two uh the the egg the woman's egg and the sperm outside. >> So of course one sperm is going to come into the egg from from the outer membrane of the egg into the center of the egg. It takes four minutes. So it's a journey that takes four minutes. When it reaches the center the two protoplasms are going to melt. They're going to be combined. they're going to bond together. That process takes 15 minutes. >> During those 15 minutes is when the incarnating spirit links over to that first uh to be still to be cell. So >> So there's a moment of like the the I would say this is poetic the spark of life. >> Yeah. where there's a connection between the forming body and the spirit that will truly inhabit that body >> and as of that point the spirit is responsible from taking it over. So I'll take it from here kind of thing. So it's a very clear definition. So uh is that after this after that it's black and white. >> Yeah. >> On the other hand the definition of death. >> Yeah. Uh we don't use the word death because death is complicated. Uh we >> let's call it let's let me say this physical death. We're talking about physical death. But go ahead and and do your definitions. But for throughout our talk today, I want us to to really think this is the the this body will die. Therefore, it's a physical death. But go on. I'm I'm really excited to hear from you. >> Yeah. From the scientific point of view, it has to do with the brain. When the sephilis dies, that's it. That's considered, you know, the end of life for all purposes. >> Yeah. >> However, how about people who die? They everybody's ready to to put out to sign the death certificate. Then the person wakes up and says, "Oh, I saw you. You're the surgeon. I saw you doing this

h. >> However, how about people who die? They everybody's ready to to put out to sign the death certificate. Then the person wakes up and says, "Oh, I saw you. You're the surgeon. I saw you doing this and that and I saw the nurses talking about this and that." >> Right? Near-ath experience. So, how come? So that definition of death not necessarily applies. So if it does not apply to one single person, it doesn't apply for anyone. >> Absolutely. >> So it becomes questionable. Spiritism gives us a very clear answer of when life ends >> is when the the the same connection initial connection at birth that connection disappear at the at the last mo moment at the last moment. So the spirit retracts like it disconnects from the body. There's a disengagement, disconnection. That's it. That is the moment of life according to spiritism. So because it's very clear things like we discussed abortion, ethanasia and so they are not really a problem in spiritism. So it's those definitions are different from the average definition that we are used to in our daily lives. And and I would say basically um those definitions are blurry if we contextualize in western thought which is uh uh by and large not uh uh one that believes in reincarnation right number one. But number two, it's uh very materialistic and does not even conceive of uh the notion of a soul of a spirit, right? In in many cases. So I think that's why it's so difficult for us to to move on. May I just uh say something before we we keep on our conversation if you don't mind, Louise? Um because what what comes to our mind is that the only sure thing we have in life is death, right? That's the only if we could call it fatality could be the the title of our of our episode today, the fatality of death. And um despite the fact that that's the one thing that we perhaps could spend all of our lives preparing for it because it's the a sure thing. Uh I would like us not to focus on the distress, the grief, the loss, the lamentation, the the the sadness,

that we perhaps could spend all of our lives preparing for it because it's the a sure thing. Uh I would like us not to focus on the distress, the grief, the loss, the lamentation, the the the sadness, depression over dying. But let's take perhaps our next 30 minutes or so to really um go through this sort of celebration Louise of this extraordinary design of each and everyone of our bodies the human body and and quite frankly not just human right the life itself but let's focus today on the human body which is this instrument of spiritual evolution. And this body that I'm touching here, my my shoulders, my my arms, right? This body is sustained, oh my goodness, by this intricate systems and it's all with the purpose of being this sacred vehicle of the soul, right? Uh and it's this journey that we talk a lot Louise in our previous podcast on the journey uh it's a it's a term that Gustav Jung talks a lot right and and Joanna D'Angelus also brings that subject that the journey of individuation but also the journey of spiritual growth evolvement and uh return to God. But um the question for you then if death is not the enemy if we could call it perhaps a check an evolutionary checkpoint right what can we talk about this body's physiology what what can you tell everyone here about the how amazing it is >> it is amazing but let me tell you this the body has two components >> okay >> there's a physical component but there's a moral component too. >> Yeah. >> Morality is expressed in our bodies. So for example uh somebody who is uh you know envy is something meaningful for somebody. So person is very envy of anything. >> You see that's a reality for that person that needs to be worked on and the body lives that somehow. >> Yeah. So the body will live our vices, envy, you know, pride, selfishness, whatever. >> I I call that the emotional landscape that we could call it negative or positive depending on your in your barometer of uh what is your moral compass, not your barometer, but your

shness, whatever. >> I I call that the emotional landscape that we could call it negative or positive depending on your in your barometer of uh what is your moral compass, not your barometer, but your your moral compass, right? This is good or bad, negative, positive. But within that very intricate landscape, you could talk about in the moment of uh like not just uh disgust but anger um uh uh uh right I'm I'm irate over something I become that reality right or my reality becomes the emotion but go ahead I interrupted you my apologies >> no no exactly and and that that happens at the cell level believe it or not >> each cell as it does through it's too long for explaining details But every cell goes through metabolism. We have 70 trillion cells. 70 trillion to 100 trillion cells in between. >> Every cell does metabolism. In the metabolism, the state of mind is red from above, right? Is red >> and it becomes part of the metabolism. So the energy that metab the cell metabolism puts out contains that state of mind. So if I'm angry at something for say three hours, all the metabolism of all my 70 trillion cells had the same output energy that is compatible with anger. >> Yes. >> Is it good for my body? Does it do anything for the per to to the body of the person who I'm angry at? No. I can be angry at you and my 70s trillion cells are suffering and yours are not. >> I know that they're suffering because of what you do yourself. So it's contained in in our bodies first. >> Yeah. >> So that goes with what you're saying. The body is a lot more than just this physical body. >> Yeah. >> There's a lot more to it. It contains it brings our spiritual history with it. >> Yes. I I I read somewhere that our in our physiology if we talk about this you know again this amazing feat of engineering that I I read there's 190,000 kilometers of veins which is like it's it's how does it fit in in this you know I'm very short Louise but uh you know me but very very know it doesn't fit 190,000

neering that I I read there's 190,000 kilometers of veins which is like it's it's how does it fit in in this you know I'm very short Louise but uh you know me but very very know it doesn't fit 190,000 kilometers or basically what can you say by half would be uh 45 to 50,000 miles of veins that is just an improbability in our minds but then if you talk about I don't know the heart the the the all the electric intricate electric uh system that makes the heart at what uh 20 days of the baby, the heart is already uh uh beating, right? And uh this beautiful symphony of our nervous systems and and uh and inductance systems. So I I think I mentioned to you uh Louise that I'm reading this uh book, the spiritual intelligence. >> Did I tell you? I don't know if I told you or not, but it's a amazing. It reminded me of you in some of your uh discussions on the brain and the brain works because it's all about the the interconnectedness between um uh you know the IQ, EQ and SQ for spiritual portion of intelligence. And uh the book spends half of it uh talking about the brain, right? The neurons and how it all works. So very very very interesting. But any case, right, >> let me just add this. I think the first person to actually bring this out many many years ago was Dana Zohar. >> She was the that's her that's her book. That's her book. and she has a phrase that I >> consider >> absolutely interesting for today's discussion. >> Yeah, >> I'm just gonna read the phrase because I don't want to make a mistake, you know. >> It it's so it's so important. The phrase is this. She's talking about, you know, death and all of that from the scientific point of view. >> Yeah. >> So, this is what she says. The definition of death only applies to the organic material life in the sense of there is no death as a synonym to destruction. >> Ah beautiful. >> So the atoms will the electrons and protons and neutrons they will recombine but there is no destruction in terms of it was never created. >> Yeah. goes by. Yes, sorry, but it goes

>> Ah beautiful. >> So the atoms will the electrons and protons and neutrons they will recombine but there is no destruction in terms of it was never created. >> Yeah. goes by. Yes, sorry, but it goes in line with the the law of transformation by >> exactly >> um what is the name? >> Oh my goodness. I love is the the chemist I think he was uh from Belgium right that he talks about in in life nothing is created nothing is destroyed it's all a part of transformation but go ahead talk >> including death >> including death tell us about Dana Zohar what does what else does she say >> no I think it's just she she's a scientist originally Yeah, >> when she wrote this in 30 years ago or so, she got, you know, she got looked at from the other colleagues like this. >> What is she saying here? It don't fit. Well, today she's a great acclaimed all over the world. But she had the courage to say, >> prove to me that this is not true. that >> when life dies, our cells, our body, our physical body, >> those 70 trillion cells never ever ever existed. Those atoms never existed. Of course, you can't prove that. So >> yeah, >> and that's one of the difficult uh difficult difficulties I would say from of science to define life and death. >> It's very complicated. >> It goes back to that uh def need for definition, right? This is awesome. Um the is are you are you referencing the same book by Dana Zohar or something else? >> No, it's a book called the the quantum self. >> The quantum self. Oh my goodness. I need I I need to read that now because I am really enthralled by by this one that I'm reading and it's just oh so good. But anyways, back to our conversation about death. Um, I wanted to know um maybe if we if we're talking about there's no death or different definition of death, but maybe what we can talk perhaps a little bit is this body for many including uh spiritualists, spiritists etc. um they are considered a prison right and and to me I'm saying that no Louise and everyone no this body is actually a

aps a little bit is this body for many including uh spiritualists, spiritists etc. um they are considered a prison right and and to me I'm saying that no Louise and everyone no this body is actually a temple so if we think uh in terms of I I don't know from a philosophical perspective uh why could we say it is more than that perishable even though Dana Zohar says is no it doesn't perish but anyways it doesn't disappear right it it transforms itself but is it fair to say it it is sacred despite of all the transformation that he goes through with the physical death and I'm going to quote here I would like to hear from you but I want to quote maybe or reference not quote uh the fact that uh from Aristotle right so several centuries prior to Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago. Right? So from Aristotle to Thomas Aquinas, we've seen this um reference to the body as a container, right? And uh it it contained um I'm sorry, not seen as a container, but as an expression of our soul and spiritism aligns with that quite quite well, right? It is this I would say this sublime sanctuary that uh is the expression of our own life. Life in the spirit, life in the spirit in the flesh and uh and it's just so amazing because it takes so much if we think about the the the the amazing feat of engineering, right? It takes so much for us to be here today. And some of us treat it as garbage. I don't know. That's how I feel. Eating, not eating well, uh not sleeping enough, not exercising, not stimulating, not using not just the body but the entire incarnation. This one time that we are now as with this persona that we inhabit. uh and really using that as the catapult for our transcendence. Um any thoughts on on that this idea that uh the body is not a prison but a temple for us to >> it's a temple that's why sacred is is our way of expressing and you were saying something interesting a lot of things had to happen for us to be here today not not on this conversation to be here alive today having a life today on

d is is our way of expressing and you were saying something interesting a lot of things had to happen for us to be here today not not on this conversation to be here alive today having a life today on earth >> a lot of things happened including >> having previous incarnations >> yeah tell me more about it because I because it's a good input to talk about that. Uh uh let's let's just reference before I give back to you. Give back the mic back to you. But uh if we believe that's the first thing if we believe in reincarnation right which I do >> you believe that I am here reincarnated meaning I had another uh corporeal existence a physical existence my my life is one right Louise we have one life and many existences um and uh I If I am here today, I am expressing not just the incredible design and planning that leads me to be here today, including this body, but also everything else before us. But go ahead, take it away. >> No, I I I think we can be uh we can define in in a few words. We can say that the body >> uh on the body that we have we imprint our seal of conduct >> that's it. We print our imprint our seal of conduct on our body. We did the same thing for our past life for two lives ago, three lives ago. The seal of conduct is not the same for >> uh every life because we get better, >> we evolve, we grow spiritually. So the seal of conduct for this life is a little more elaborate and better shaped than the previous life. So but that's what the body is there for. It's like if you go to a writer and say listen I know you're a great writer. Can you write two pages about life? >> The first thing he's going to say is I in the old days please. He would say I need paper and pencil. I need more. It doesn't apply. But those are the sacred things that he needs to express >> what he's going to express >> in our lives. We do the same. That's why the body is considered the sacred uh uh element within the concept of life because it is on that element that we imprint our seal of conduct. And that's

ess >> in our lives. We do the same. That's why the body is considered the sacred uh uh element within the concept of life because it is on that element that we imprint our seal of conduct. And that's why there are no two bodies the same including twins. And it's so amazing and and I have to just reference back to to Carl Gustav Jung, right? When he talks about this journey toward individuation and everyone including myself, Louise, we're not talking about individualism. We're not talking about selfcenteredness. We're not talking about me me but we are talking about me me capital M in this case which is that that spiritual growth that only me this spirit will go through and my current small me my mercia at this point will be a contributor to that long quite long journey. to individuation, right? Does this make sense what I'm saying? >> Yeah, it does. And you see the contributions that we make to our bodies, to our life, >> they come from our experiences across, >> you know, all the opportunities that we had before. >> And that's why we should, you know, be make the best of each life so we get out of this life. >> Yeah. and going to the next one starting from a higher point. >> Yeah. >> Instead of just cycling back to, oh, I came from here, I'm going to go back here. >> It wouldn't even make sense. It's it would be a waste. >> So, we need to uh uh kind of detach from the material world because of that. So, we don't go back to the same things. >> It's an exercise, right? this this sense of uh detaching from a material experience, material outcome while not isolating from that, right? Because we we there's a reason for all this work for us to be here. But back to death. Uh Louise, I I just wanted to remind everyone Alan Cardc um in the foundational book of spiritism the spirit the spirit's book question 149 he he asked right the question was what becomes of the soul after death and the answer Louise is it becomes a spirit again meaning it was never not a spirit right because uh Earlier in the

uestion 149 he he asked right the question was what becomes of the soul after death and the answer Louise is it becomes a spirit again meaning it was never not a spirit right because uh Earlier in the book he references or defines soul as the spirit that is incarnate meaning it's in in the material life living the material life. So he says >> it never disappeared. Yeah, it does it doesn't doesn't change, right? But he says it becomes a spirit again, returning to the world of spirits. It left temporarily, meaning that's our real home. So for us here with this conversation, right, death is not the end. death, physical death is not the end, but it's almost like a reinstatement of the spirit in its own real broader reality as the spirit that uh it is uh I >> is a point of reference to us. A point of reference that's all it is. >> Yes. But uh can we can we talk about >> let me just uh yeah from where so you were talking about the soul never dies. So that's why we say the spirit is immortal >> right comes from that. >> Now >> if you think about it right you cannot destroy the spirit. >> I I love I think I know where you're going and I love it already. Go ahead. >> Because in order for you to destroy something, that something has to have a form. >> Yeah. >> Physical form. >> Formed of atoms or electrons or cells, whatever it is, you have you cannot destroy what doesn't have material principle in it. >> Yeah. >> The spirit, the soul does not have a material principle in it. It's purely spiritual principle. >> So there's nothing material in it. So it cannot be destroyed. Thus it is immortal. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and to me the the the maybe the analogy that comes to my mind is uh like a seed, right? Uh and I'm thinking I love mangoes. So mangoes for anybody who does not know is like like a good mango. Maybe it's like my two hands come together that big with a seed that is most of it, right, Louise? And uh and that seed may be like uh my my maybe a little bit smaller, but it can be the

a good mango. Maybe it's like my two hands come together that big with a seed that is most of it, right, Louise? And uh and that seed may be like uh my my maybe a little bit smaller, but it can be the size of my closed hand. Uh it must crack open. it must destroy the the the the outer body of the seed so that it can get its full potential as a tree, right? And and I keep thinking this is maybe the cracking of the seed of that shell itself is our body, right? It has to crack so that we our spirit can blossom again as in our real dimension which is our own uh home of of a spiritual dimension. Right? I I'm just thinking here but uh uh if we keep talking about it I I'm just wondering could we maybe go in a sideline here Louise and talk a little about if we talk in the immortality of the soul and that the you know life continues but the the true life is not in the material dimension. Uh could we perhaps talk a little bit about uh uh the notion and you mentioned earlier the being angry, right? So maybe >> maybe Louise, you are my enemy. Just joking here. You know, I love you to death, but uh you are my enemy. But can we say philosophically speaking again if if uh this is really not what I am are my enemies what is outside people that hurt me or is it really myself when I'm I'm I'm going against all there is I'm fighting what it is that I'm here to do. I don't know. Just a thought. What? What? >> Now I like to associate this uh to to just think of a war in the Middle Ages, right? >> Yeah. >> What is a war in the Middle Ages? You have a field, right? And you have a bunch of soldiers over here all lined up. And you have a bunch of soldiers over here all lined up. Why are they there at that time and date? Because there was an agreement. >> We're going to be there, you go there, we fight, and we see who wins. That's what it is. >> Yeah. Now, so when you go to a war like that, the enemy is on the other side of the field clearly. >> Yes. >> You have to go there and kill it. >> Yeah.

ght, and we see who wins. That's what it is. >> Yeah. Now, so when you go to a war like that, the enemy is on the other side of the field clearly. >> Yes. >> You have to go there and kill it. >> Yeah. >> So the it takes place in a battlefield. It takes place on a previously agreed on battlefield. >> Yeah. >> When it gets to us personally, >> ah the ens >> Yeah. The enemy is what that person brings in me that changes me temporarily. For example, every time, let's say you, right? Every time you walk in, oh, she has a nice car and so I never had a So there's envy in there. So when you walk in now, I'm full of envy that I wasn't two minutes ago when I was talking to my friends, laughing and and talking about stories. So Marcia now enters the enters the room. and I completely change. So the enemy >> seven trillion plus cells become immersed in envy. >> The enemy is not you. You are not the one I have to destroy. >> Yeah. >> The enemy is anger. The enemy is envy. The enemy the enemy is selfishness. How do I defeat this? Think about the war. >> I have to go to the battlefield. So the person that we call the enemy is in reality the battlefield. That is where I go to defy the to the uh to destroy the enemy. In order for me to destroy envy, I envy has to come up >> first and then I will fight against it. >> How do I get envy to come up? Oh, Marca is a good person. She comes around me. I'm all envying myself. >> So what do we do? We get away from people. No, Marca is going. I was invited to this party, but Marca is going, so I'm not going. I'm busy. >> Yeah, >> I created the idea of be being busy because I don't want to be by you because >> I don't feel good enough. >> It It triggers stuff. >> In reality, what I should do is, Marcia, can you give me your schedule because I want to be by you as much as I can because I need to defeat this thing. I want to go to the battlefield as many times as possible in this lifetime. >> I love I love the concept. Let is >> Jesus let us invite all of our enemies

as I can because I need to defeat this thing. I want to go to the battlefield as many times as possible in this lifetime. >> I love I love the concept. Let is >> Jesus let us invite all of our enemies because they are what we project from within onto them, right? >> And we avoid them. We avoid the people >> that we have to deal with. So, so as we project uh this you know the what you call the things that need to be worked on into the battlefield onto our uh suff our our external enemies right we are projecting what's inside that is you know we can say it's a source of suffering somehow >> um how does that uh hinder my spiritual evolution Can you maybe talk about because when you're talking about this and I I love it by the way Louise that you said let me be close to to you know to to my to to that the other the one that triggers whatever it is that you need to to uh fight against Carl Jung Carl Gustaf Jung he he brings um the concept of the shadow that is very much that Right? The shadow is a a container if you will of all the rejected parts of the self. So uh instead of us embracing all those difficult parts uh we really um don't know how to integrate them but we boom we project and we externalize them as our enemies. So uh one of the things that uh I read from Joanna D'Angelus is that she says that the greatest dangers lie within right moral >> imperfections left over from primal stages which goes back to what you're saying you can only talk about today and the body but now we're talking about life or experience or poor existence when we reference past woods, right? How how can we maybe talk a little bit about uh uh those those things that are hard for us to to accept to integrate. Therefore, uh even if I'm not I don't do that consciously, I just project onto the other and I see those projected parts of me as the embodiment of my enemy. Yeah, we could consider that this is our response to something that didn't take place yet. >> First, we respond and then we wait for

nd I see those projected parts of me as the embodiment of my enemy. Yeah, we could consider that this is our response to something that didn't take place yet. >> First, we respond and then we wait for the attack, >> which is absurd. >> But we are so, you know, concentrated and and focused on, oh my god, I was invited to this party. Marcia is going, I already have all my behavior presets. >> Yeah. Yeah. So the minute you walk in and you say, "Hi Louise, I'm gonna >> turn my head." And >> you understand, I have a preset behavior. >> Yeah. >> Because of what could happen. That by itself prevents us from getting better. >> Yeah. >> So I already chose the enemy and the battlefield. >> Yeah. >> But I'm not fighting. >> You see, I have to go in to fight. When I taking the example that I gave you, >> Yeah. Uh, Marcia, every time she's around, it's a problem. So, >> I want to get closer to you because I want to fight on that. But I have to fight on that. It is of no point me going back to you and say, "Yeah, you see, I told you. I told you she's like that." >> Because that's what the problem is. So, >> yeah, >> I'm here now. You're by me. And I'm going to say, >> "Yeah, >> let me see what what's not bad here first." >> Yeah. No, not that. You see, it's us. It's our initiative. We if we portray the idea of being a a a victim, we are going to be >> victim. >> Yeah. And you're about to say something about Jesus, right? because uh uh and Joseph Campbell brilliantly uh as the theologian that for the first time brought not what what is different from religions but what is similar to all religions and he brought forth the one single most revolutionary contribution that Jesus brought to humanity which was love thy enemy right but I think you're about to say something and I interrupted you. Can you maybe go back to what you're thinking? >> He was very clear on that. He said, "Reconcile with your adversary before it's too late." >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> It can't be any more clear than that.

an you maybe go back to what you're thinking? >> He was very clear on that. He said, "Reconcile with your adversary before it's too late." >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> It can't be any more clear than that. >> Yeah. >> You know, it's a straight striking phrase. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Go to the battlefield. Do not avoid the people. >> Yeah. >> You feel dis this discomfort when around them. >> Go to the battlefield. I love it. I love it. I you you have no idea how much this is important to me. And uh in in the same vein of uh thought process here, Louise, I'm I'm wondering if if we're going to, you know, go to the battlefield and uh when we go to the battlefield and uh when you you talked about uh uh the medieval battlefield, of course, immediately uh I don't know if you're aware of the tapestry of Bayou right in France, and it's a very medieval, right? I think it was uh uh created in the the 1200s. Uh and it's just so beautiful. So so amazing. But anyways, I'm thinking that that's my visual cue here. Uh the beo tapestry and everybody all the soldiers, but they are they they they are carrying um instruments in the battlefield. So what kind now moving to us. What kind of spiritual strength do we need when we are going to the battlefield and face our own uh enemies, our own internal shadows? What do you what what do you think we could uh help me uh be better prepared? I think we need to loosen the idea that is so firm that I'm like this and I'm going to be like this. That's problem number one. So >> what do you mean by that? >> To go to the battlefield. >> There's a reason behind it. So I have to stick to that reason. First of all, I have to understand what that reason is. >> Okay. >> Just didn't come up because of something. No, because I want to get better. I want to be better. I have a problem with envy. She's a good person to be around to help me with that. you you're my helper. You're not my enemy. >> Yeah. >> You might not know. You see a lot of people, we don't like people. They don't

m with envy. She's a good person to be around to help me with that. you you're my helper. You're not my enemy. >> Yeah. >> You might not know. You see a lot of people, we don't like people. They don't know we don't like them. >> We go 30 years of our life say no that person. Oh, no. No. Because 30 years ago he said this, she said this. No, no, no, no, no. It's a no no person. >> 30 years and and then one day you you come across that person and say, "Oh, remember that 30 years? No, I don't. What happened?" And then you go like, ah, >> I've been holding on to the resentment field. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Person has been waiting for me for 30 years. I never went to the battlefield. What happens when one of the parties doesn't go to the battlefield? He loses the battle. >> Yeah. >> Every time I avoid you, I'm losing to envy. >> Interesting. I love it like that. >> Yeah. >> You see, so we have to have this uh idea of performance. I would say this is going to be my performance. I'm going to be there. It's not going to be easy. I'm going to feel what I feel when she's around. But there's a way and I'm going to find a way if I go there >> to >> focus on the problem. >> Yeah, >> it's going to be a problem. Not a problem. So >> yeah, >> we we need to lose in our mind around this idea that she's the enemy. >> She's not the enemy. >> She's not the enemy. Yeah. Yeah. Love it. I love it. So, um, our, you know, battlefields plural, right? Our adversaries could be, I don't know, arrogance, right? I I keep thinking, Louise, those are all uh over uh built, overemphasized, egoic constructs, right? arrogance, uh, sense of superiority, resentment, which you mentioned the 30 years of of resentment, or even uh, several addictions could be the battlefield. I need to and we we see that easier than those feelings, right? I I can say, "Oh my gosh, let's pretend here I'm a I'm a smoker. I don't smoke, right? But I'm a smoker and and smoking is my addiction and and I've seen way too many people going through decades

ght? I I can say, "Oh my gosh, let's pretend here I'm a I'm a smoker. I don't smoke, right? But I'm a smoker and and smoking is my addiction and and I've seen way too many people going through decades fighting losing or winning but fighting their addiction. So it's easier but there's some things that so hard to to determine right for example you mentioned envy you can mention hatred but I can say resentment is more pervasive and harder to to understand right why do I always feel that uh about this person and there's all those things that uh as as we mentioned before it could have come from a different lifetime right and by that I in a different incarnation and so even though I cannot pinpoint but I feel therefore if you feel it go to the battlefield I love you see you're talking about resentment which is really complicated >> first let's say there's something about resentment >> on my part towards you >> you might not know what it is I might not know what it is however I don't think we can easily do this at all. But can you imagine if one day I go to you say listen let's talk about here we don't talk very much I want to tell you something I'm opening my heart to you here every time I think of you every time there's resentment in here >> yeah yeah you can >> remember something can you can you tell me something and you need to help me I'm I'm this is my cry for help resentment is a cry for help all vices are >> so if we go to the person, right, and work together with that person. I'm going to the battlefield to destroy my vice, my and something. But if I don't do it, I'm losing the battle. Every time the battlefield is set, I'm losing it. Then I keep going and going, go to the next life and next life and next life. It becomes a snowball sometimes. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Down the road, something really huge. When a snowball gets out of control, it can lead to depression and suicide. So, which is a different animal, but you know, it starts like this. It starts with a little thing here that was not

ly huge. When a snowball gets out of control, it can lead to depression and suicide. So, which is a different animal, but you know, it starts like this. It starts with a little thing here that was not taken care of. >> Yeah. >> I had the opportunities to >> and I missed them. >> Yeah. No, this is this is this is interesting. Louise, do you have any final thoughts that you want to just wrap it all up for uh for this talk of ours before we close? >> Yeah. Um if we for example, if we look into Jesus, >> Yeah. >> I want to be like Jesus. Yeah. But it's not going to be tomorrow morning. It's too far. It's too far. >> So there's got to be >> He's a great model, but it's a He's a great model, right? But it's a it's a bit hard to be Jesus. But go ahead, please. Let's try to get somebody in between. So, you know, maybe Gandhi, maybe Shiko Xavier. >> Yeah. >> But it's possible. We are seeing that it's possible. >> Yeah. >> We just want this is a snap of finger. It's not going to help. So, if we live our lives, if we live our lives up to what we can be instead of up to what we are, that's already a step ahead. >> Yes. Yes. You see, so I have this thing tomorrow. Let's go back to to the party. You and me. >> So tomorrow I was invited to this party. Oh my god, she's going to be there. You see, this is not helping me. I'm living to where I am. I'm living up to what I am. If I want to live up to what I can be, I'm going to say, "She's going to be there. We're going to be okay. We're going to be okay. I'm just going to say hello like this and we're going to be okay." That's living up to what I can be. >> Yeah. It it's being hopeful about myself. >> So I I think that's what we should do and never leave the battlefield, you know. >> Yes. Yes. I want to say I really enjoyed our conversation, Louise. I was great. >> I I do hope you come back. Uh lovely. Um and uh if you are here today writing me saying they talked a lot. What did they talk about? Well, we we started discussing about uh about how the body,

eat. >> I I do hope you come back. Uh lovely. Um and uh if you are here today writing me saying they talked a lot. What did they talk about? Well, we we started discussing about uh about how the body, our bodies, all of us is not just a container, a machine, a vessel, but this sublime sanctuary, right? It is a sacred vehicle of the spirit on its evolutionary journey. So, there's a function, there's a purpose, and we need to take good care of it. We also um do some quite interesting reflections including the definitions of birth and death, right? And some uh maybe um paradoxical components or lack of precision into those definitions from a spiritual perspective versus a material perspective. But we also um got some interesting uh inputs from Dana Zohar. I I love that uh you brought her and I'm reading a book by her. Love it. Um but my main conclusion is for for me for you Louise and for all of us is how true spiritual awareness transforms our relationship with life with suffering and death. And uh as such we are here all of us invited to fight in the battlefield of whatever it is that we're bringing with us so that we can indeed transform those relationships. But uh before we go Louise I want to just bring a couple of questions for us to no no no no need to answer just for us to to keep with our ourselves right. Um first one may be what does it mean to honor the body our body as a divine instrument of growth >> right uh another question may be why is self-nowledge so important and they're critical essential even for our process of individuation right embracing integrating all parts of who we are, but most important healing those components of certain wounds that are just keep coming incarnation after incarnation after incarnation. >> And finally, my last question would be how can we all overcome those enemies, right, which are internal in nature. they can be more dangerous than the external ones and require us to look at them as how can I prepare to go to the battlefield. But Louise, uh, such a

ose enemies, right, which are internal in nature. they can be more dangerous than the external ones and require us to look at them as how can I prepare to go to the battlefield. But Louise, uh, such a pleasure. For those of you who are here with us, if this is the first time that you're listening to our program, uh, the psych psychology and spirituality, oh, I can't talk today. The psychology and spirituality weekly talks. Uh, please note they are all based on the works by Joanna D'Angel. And uh we hope that uh you could somehow get some of those concepts peppered in today and uh expand your own flavor of uh spirituality and psychology. And I want to thank you Louise. My big hug to you now for being here with me. Thank um thank you all the sponsors. Mansu Camino, the United States Spirits Federation, the International Spiritist Council, and Brazil. As you know, this is the Brazilian arm of the Medical Spiritist Association. We'll be back next week, everyone. Thank you and so long. >> Thank you.