Ep 27 - What is Joanna de Angelis' Approach to Life and Death?

foreign welcome to the psychology and spirituality a bridge to a better life discussion I'm your host Marcia trejano and with me today is my very very good friend and our special guest Susanna Simmons is an active worker of the spiritus movement Dr Simone spends her time between her professional work as a doctor of physical therapy her family and the work in the dissemination of spiritism Susanna has worked as a member of the spiritus Federation of Florida the United States spirit Spirit is Federation I'm sorry and she's one of the founders of the conscious living spiritus group in Miami where she works primarily overseeing the work done in English she's an active member and speaker of the spiritus movement working ceaselessly in the U.S and abroad Susanna thank you thank you so much for joining us in today's episode is brought to you by our friends that conscious living spiritus Group which is a non-profit organization located in Miami Florida if you are interested in learning more about this organization please visit them at c l s g U.S the spirit is in spirituality the psychology and spirituality program is also sponsored by Ami Brazil the United States spiritus Federation TV mansando Camino and the international spiritus Council please take a moment to subscribe if you haven't done so and if you'd like to check out our other channels please check us out at spiritus.us and if you have any questions feel free to put them your comments feedback or any other questions in the chat window we will return to you maybe today maybe in the future episode but let's get back to you Susanna it is so so good to see you today and we're here to discuss Joanna the Angela's approach to life and death and I know you are someone who have been studying and researching and speaking and presenting on the topic so I'm really excited that you're here with us today so Susanna why don't you tell us a little bit about why this topic why is it even important that we talk about life and death

esenting on the topic so I'm really excited that you're here with us today so Susanna why don't you tell us a little bit about why this topic why is it even important that we talk about life and death hi Marcia uh first of all thank you for having me here uh with you with all of you today I want to say hi to everyone who is following listening uh today's episode this is um particularly interesting uh topic for me I first became more Curious in wanting to investigate and study after the passing of my father two years ago so this is something that we it's part of spiritism right we're always talking about immortality of the soul and the meaning of life Etc but it took a little bit more of a personal um tone if you will when I um went to Brazil and was with my father in the hospital um pretty much the week prior to his passing and I'm a physical therapist um I oversee um a program that is for uh geriatric patients once they enroll in the program with us their average length of Lifetime is two years from that point on I'm a consultant for hospice so I have this piece professionally and when my father was passing then it became a little bit more personal and I try to to bring my spiritualist and my professional experience to my time with him in guiding him my um my stepmother who was present uh in the process and and after that I felt like how important it is to talk about those things and to help people because what I realized is that not even spiritus or spiritualists take the time to reflect about this topic we talk about it very lightly as if it's something out there somewhere else but not in our life no no in our homes and we we are just us poorly prepared to undergo the process especially when it comes to ourselves um then a lot of people you know because the fact that we know things cognitively yes can be helpful but it's not all there is we need to really really think about it yes and I want to say right to Susanna just to add to the urgency and the importance of talking to the

cognitively yes can be helpful but it's not all there is we need to really really think about it yes and I want to say right to Susanna just to add to the urgency and the importance of talking to the subject we are at a juncture where the elderly and by elderly I include myself because I just turned 60 but the population of 16 above is predicted to be in a few more years in a couple of more decades uh to be 30 of the population and yet we're not equipped to to really manage this this new group of people that in my use I would say oh my grandmother when she's so old with a cane and I I don't fit that image right I really don't at this point yet I'm at the same age so how do we do we manage the the fact that there's so many of us are going to be 30 percent of the population I think the estimation is by 2050 so three decades to two and a half decades from now but also this period of the pandemic brought this very close to us right yep so yeah so so I just thought that how important it is for this conversation but go ahead you're absolutely right we are getting older and with that it's also what's also happening is the disablement period so the period where one would have helped um which used to be almost no existence because we die at a younger age when you know physically we were still like you know not as frail but now that we leave until like you know 104 105 106. um I mean this week we're celebrating one of my patients 104 birthday next week I have one celebrating 106. so yeah so as we leave um longer we also gonna go to right now it's about predicted about two years in the life of any of us if we live you know to the 80s 90s where we're gonna be in some sort of physical dependence so how do we go through these years how do we go through the dying process no one wants to talk about it it's like the big white elephant and you know in his Juana one of the things when I started to to research about the topic and I was curious about Joanna's books I went through them

s to talk about it it's like the big white elephant and you know in his Juana one of the things when I started to to research about the topic and I was curious about Joanna's books I went through them and to my surprise I might have maybe 30 of her books in my house give or take you know I mean at least 20 of them and I'm kind of there was a by no means exact numbers it might be even more much more do have a chapter about uh dying about end of life about uh immortality but not only speaking about immortality but within the context of preparing oneself to die and I was struck by that because the books are very different and they they 'd be talking about very different topics but somehow she manages to put a chapter in her books about dying and in many books you will find and I think I gave you four names uh for today one of them is plenitude um these are books there are in English translated so plentitude and help me out what were the other names I gave you um so you gave to me I have your Glorious Days um times of health and Consciousness life challenges and solutions so those four books yes you will find um content and you will find Joanna's invitation so that's what's um really um interesting she will say things like we it's not enough to know that we are going to die we must talk about it so and it's not talk about it in a lecture in a center it's talk about it among ourselves talk about it with our family members we must bring it to the table because she will associate the lack of time or opportunities to talk about death with psychological immaturity with our inability to look at that for what it is a fatality something that is uh inherent part of life and must be addressed we cannot deny or pretend that it's not coming our way or that it won't happen with us although we want to believe that and one of the greatest evidences of that is anytime you try to talk about people family ones people look at you and it's like are you okay are you like are you depressed

hough we want to believe that and one of the greatest evidences of that is anytime you try to talk about people family ones people look at you and it's like are you okay are you like are you depressed you know um I brought it up with my uh parents and they look at me and they're like are you trying to kill us I'm like no no on the contrary I want to make sure I'm able to honor your life your wishes and make sure that to the very end you have the highest quality of life possible but I can only provide that if we go there if I know what your wishes are and if we talk about it so it's it's still a challenge for us and again Juana starts her work by bringing up in several of her books not one but several the need to talk about it so when I when I do this lecture on the topic I usually ask the audience how many of you have your will done how many of you have done all the necessary bureaucratic steps that relate to the end of your life and you find some people who have done and many people who are waiting for the right time which is one also talks about she asked and we can get into it when is the right time to talk about death and it's very important um Susanna on a different note which is not the time the right time to talk about death and dying but uh you mentioned before the lack of maturity right the psychological maturity to deal with the finality this this sense of ending of a cycle and I think you you mentioned uh when we talked before some of the root causes for that maybe when you have a chance we can also talk about it right why is it so difficult for us to address something that is a certainty the minute that we're born right yeah I mean it's a certainty at the material Level but um we we have one of the things and that's another topic that she will address in in her books in again in many different ones is um the fear of that what is that related to so it prevents some of us from talking and and um you know I can give you probably four reasons one of that being

r books in again in many different ones is um the fear of that what is that related to so it prevents some of us from talking and and um you know I can give you probably four reasons one of that being um just the the our history if you go back to the caveman you know someone would die and they would be like what happened here you know no understanding of what they were dealing with I mean another reason is um you know our religious education um over the course of many lifetimes with the idea of uh Heaven and Hell of uh Eternal punishment and things like that that although we may not believe that anymore but it's kind of in our psychic and it's in a psychic of our culture so cultural um approaches to to death as well was um she talks about cultures she talks about oh and as well as fear of the final judgment right or the Judgment after that of like you know finding yourself stripped of the physical body and having to deal with your conscience and facing because we cannot Escape our conscience it's with us so that encounter is very frightening for many people if we are caring feelings guilt if we have conflicts we're gonna have to face all of this when we are incarnated we can push that away we can put our attention to other things we can pretend it's not there but once you are outside of the physical body it's harder to hide can I can I ask you to explain for those of us in the audience that do not know the term incarnated can you just talk a little bit about this cycle of life and death based on the reincarnationist theories and and maybe we could jump into perhaps after that into the idea of those archetypical inheritance that we bring right because of and related to the cycle of life in life not Life Death right we also bring all of that I like that and I like to think of that as when I when I talk about it life with capital L and small l so here when we are incarnated meaning when we are inside the physical body right we have our life with the small L right but

ink of that as when I when I talk about it life with capital L and small l so here when we are incarnated meaning when we are inside the physical body right we have our life with the small L right but that is just a small very brief portion of our life with capital l meaning we are always always alive we are either alive inside the physical body incarnated or we are alive outside of the physical body discarnated and the the the the the journey of the immortal Spirit from the moment it is created to the moment ongoing never-ending moment of enlightenment is made of Journeys inside and outside of the physical body so that this the spirit in entering the physical body it is as if it's sent out to a classroom a special classroom where the spirit will in that very montessorian environment with all the the stimulus um that is proper for the spirit stage of evolution it will be worked out in a way that the Divine potentialities that lie within each one of us will blossom and that is precisely what life is life is a journey and the idea of life and death according to Joanna is just two different sides of the same expression and it's not a dichotomy as we like to think but it is a continuity so that is how Juana will present life to us and that's how we understand Incarnation and discarnation and so we bring in the uh in our spiritual body uh which we call Pure Spirit or in spiritualism which is known as astral body in other traditions the the memories the Archive of Our innumerous uh experiences inside and outside of the body that's what Marcia was uh referring to did I yes yes yes so we were talking about fear fear of death and then all that we bring in including perhaps atavistic uh types of uh religious Concepts right you mentioned yes uh the Heaven and Hell the less judgment etc etc in in in in in among among all those wrinkles there's also maybe um I heard you speak before Susanna the the whole wrinkle of for us to Incarnate right so again the central idea is the immortality of the Soul then you talked

ng all those wrinkles there's also maybe um I heard you speak before Susanna the the whole wrinkle of for us to Incarnate right so again the central idea is the immortality of the Soul then you talked about it and and also uh the the the the sense of with the immortal Soul there is reincarnations right yeah you live you die you live again and and from that perspective there is a beautiful a concept that you brought from spiritual author Emmanuel on the fact that in order for us to Incarnate you have to become quite attached or or projected into the material self you're a lowercase L for your life right lower case right yes and and just getting back to what I was saying then uh another another um idea is that once we incarnate I like to think of it as God anchors Us in the physical body by providing us with um instincts that are necessary to help us in wanting to stay in this physical body right Joanna also talks about that she highlights that that is another factor that is behind the fear component it is that we are divinely grounded in this physical body and she uses the word we get Intoxicated by the physicality and we forget where we came from so we have a few Divine components that anchor us to the physical body if you will one of them is the Instinct the other one is the forgetfulness of the past and because where we are in our stage of evolution where we come into this body that is very dense and physical it's the spirit becomes somewhat um enable or very very limited in its ability to connect with the extrasorial realm we can through mediumship but in general we are extremely limited and confined to this material um reality therefore you know the although we know of the spiritual in in in cognitive ways there is a distance let's put it this way and so it's it makes it harder for us to to to face it forward um and there's another component right Susanna I'm thinking out loud here that uh in in this journey and we're talking about the journey in in this lifetime

s it harder for us to to to face it forward um and there's another component right Susanna I'm thinking out loud here that uh in in this journey and we're talking about the journey in in this lifetime which is constricted to the limits of birth and death of the physical body uh we do know that uh roughly uh the the first half of our journey is in in adapting to the the world in the context that we live in and we talked about I I I keep thinking of the ecosystem right that's that's my culture my parents my upbringing all of it that immerses me in that context in the ecosystem which may change how I respond to that uh external requirements of me to be successful to to live and be well and and that goes hand in hand with the um generation and construction of your ego and oh pass that and and when I was young we would call the the midlife crisis right mid-life being meaning 35 Oh Susanna 35 and 40. right yeah so would get to that point and it's I I think a little bit of what we're talking here I reached my Peak and what do I do now and in in today's society right Susanna it's it's really we have a lot to do with how productive I am and and perhaps 65 or 67 depending on how you see it would be that peak of productive years and after that as you retire then you have no meaning and I think it's very important when you talk about the aging and you talk you mentioned at least two years is predicted that you're going to be completely dependent on an outside care right yeah but there is also psychologically speaking the death of your ego if you will because that egos usually very much reflecting a context a material context for living how many hours do we have to talk about this oh we can talk about later yes just like you just open like I mean there's so much to say about this I don't even know where to start but let's see let's try here um yes we the first phase of our life um it's all about the formation and the strengthening of the ego because the ego is that psychic stance that will help us

re to start but let's see let's try here um yes we the first phase of our life um it's all about the formation and the strengthening of the ego because the ego is that psychic stance that will help us to manage life and the ego works as the the mediator or uh the door man in between the spirit the self and the world out there so it's it's it's it's managing and it's getting us to conquer outwards so we are going towards uh Conquering the world uh defining who we are um growing professionally is a lot of outwards Investments it comes to a point where the body starts to become more frail we are more physically unable so I consider myself a young 53 but if I climb a tree today I'll have to call 9-1-1 and ask the firefighters to come and get me out of the tree because I no longer have the flexibility to climb down I can climb up I still have strength to climb up I can't climb down so and that's all good stuff because Joanna also is going to talk about the the richness and the blessings of every single uh phase of our lives and the concessions that come with every single phase of Our Lives so as the body becomes more frail and we become more or less able to do then it opens a very significant window for us to be so life becomes a little less about doing so that we can focus on being and so that we are less distracted with outwards movements and we become a little bit better in actually listening to ourselves with capital s to our essential being it's a time where we're going to start to questioning some of the values and some of the the management of time what's really important and that is a very significant step because as we are preparing to go back home it's essential that we are us well prepared as possible to return to a reality that is no longer material so it's it's important it's essential that this time has an end Juan is going to talk this is so important and so beautiful because she really talks about it is precisely the finitude of the physical body the limited time in a material body that

is time has an end Juan is going to talk this is so important and so beautiful because she really talks about it is precisely the finitude of the physical body the limited time in a material body that gives Our Lives its meaning that if we can leave each moment of Our Lives read the awareness in the enhance the importance of talk about dying differently than what people think that is disturbing on the contrary when you were consciously aware of the death of the physical body it actually helps you to leave the present moment more fully and you are more alive in your own life each day each moment precisely because you are aware of the finitude of that experience and it helps you to be able to zoom in in what is really important and really matters in life and so she talks a lot about that she talks a lot about the the role that that place in helping us to be fully alive and in merging and in facilitating the connection and the communication between the ego and the self can I say something and this is crazy but uh I'm gonna insert my my professional life just as a metaphor to what you're saying yeah and you tell me if it makes sense Susanna and uh so anyways I'm a project manager right so as you're talking about all the cyclical uh nature of our life and the need to have an end a sparked uh in my brain the idea that a project to be able to manage a project you have to have a goal there is a scope there's a beginning and an end no project will stay forever it has a beginning and an end and as project managers you manage the right you manage you see that you're gonna have let's pretending years as as the project would be uh our lives right maybe you say a hundred 106 of the person that you're gonna celebrate the birthday this week or 104 or 60 doesn't matter um that that is your Project Life Cycle and you work very very closely to the execution of what you plan to happen right so this is our lives um but what's interesting that you brought forth here Susanna was the fact

your Project Life Cycle and you work very very closely to the execution of what you plan to happen right so this is our lives um but what's interesting that you brought forth here Susanna was the fact that the project in itself it doesn't matter this is what I thought it does not matter that you're able to to to execute on your project perfectly what matter is it what happens after the project is done meaning you finish something because you want something else to happen and that is the adoption of the benefits of that project it doesn't matter but for us what comes to my mind is why do we even live why do we even have to to have this physical body it is to a project to learn to grow so that the outcome is a better self does this make sense to you yes yes so it's a succession of projects that's what it that's what it comes down to but yeah I like the idea I like the analogy I also do a lot of projects so knowing that there is a beginning and a nand right helps you to focus on the journey in the middle and that's what it gives meaning I mean that's what Juwanna really talks about is that without this beginning and end it would be the time in between would be would be devoided of meaning and so it gives us the meaning and and that's important because a lot of people a lot of people live their lives without ever realizing what is the meaning of life right yeah yeah right so it's it's um and and that creates um the the the basis for a number of um illnesses that we see in our society today including depression and anxiety and you were mentioning earlier about you know the Aging of society and one of the most uh missed forms of depression is depression amongst geriatric population which is a very is very high but often missed because we have associations with aging that the elderly is sad is is bitter whatever that might be and but a lot of times what there is is underlying um depression that actually starts and is very closely associated with retirement age because it's when people

ad is is bitter whatever that might be and but a lot of times what there is is underlying um depression that actually starts and is very closely associated with retirement age because it's when people strip from their ability to to work so to speak and many of us especially in our society here in the United States have our values as human beings very very attached to our ability to produce to productivity as opposed to you are a divine creature whether you're doing something you're not you just are because once God created you that's it you are Divine whether you like it or not but um so yes so she she does also talk a lot about aging and um because it is um a challenging associated with you know that she does talk a lot about illnesses and um and how to cope with them and um yes so again we are seeing a lot of a lot of challenges and a lot of mental health issues related to our uh inability and poor preparation for these phase of life how do you see in your perhaps your professional role um dealing with those patients that are in the regiatric patients that are so much older uh out there but also if you if you see these types of depression what what can you tell for example if it was me Susana who was the family member of those patients what would you tell them as the best way to to to help this process because it's a process right the aging and dying are both processes that we need not only to to remove the taboo and and talk about it but also be ready to to to to prepare ourselves but maybe prepared for for the Aging and dying processes of our loved ones yes we're huh it varies right because people have very different backgrounds and very different belief systems um so we have always to be attuned to you know where people are in their thinking and and belief system but look the struggle is huge uh our identification with our physical body the same way that we identify very much with um with uh work and we draw a value from working we also draw values from our appearances what we look the way we look

dentification with our physical body the same way that we identify very much with um with uh work and we draw a value from working we also draw values from our appearances what we look the way we look so aging is very complicated and that's why the the the industry that deals with beautification of the physical body is a billionaire industry because we'll pay anything to give our physical bodies uh young and that is another aspect that Juana talks a lot in her books she talks about the fact that we want to be immortal in the physical body we want the immortality of the physical body and so the industry Taps into that and that's it we the the research shows that during the pandemic years for example uh we spend a lot more money with uh surgeries uh that alter the physical body where there's facelifts breasts buttocks you name it um billions of dollars go into this industry to address an issue that is an issue for for all of us um to some of us more to some of us less um so you know you may say well I you know out of my body with both ox or surgery but yes we dye our hairs and it's at the very end of the day is all the same we are attempting to stay young and a lot of us will um you know justify ourselves uh using the speech of self-care and self-love which might very well be the case but rarely the only case it is a mixture of uh reasons uh yeah so an emotional uh you know but the point being is that the identification with the physical body is very strong again we draw our our value and our word for from you know the our looks and um and so here we are talking about aging and what she has to offer that I find the most beautiful is really to learn that there is Beauty in each phases of Our Lives you know and the more that we not only understand but that we feel that we are truly Spirits because it's not a cognitive understanding we need to be talking about those things reading reflecting exchanging ideas right every day a lot so that this can no longer be just a theory but become Who We Are

it's not a cognitive understanding we need to be talking about those things reading reflecting exchanging ideas right every day a lot so that this can no longer be just a theory but become Who We Are so that we can truly navigate through each phase whether we are 20 30 40 50 whatever 90 about to die understanding that each phase has its beauty each phase has its gifts and blessings and if we are fully fully connected to our immortality we'll be able to be fully present and take advantage of all the concessions that's the word that she uses and all the blessings that each phase of Our Lives give us and leave each face even if we are dealing with limitations with joy with gratitude with appreciation and with the ability to draw from each moment the special learnings and teachings that come with each time you know so um that's it I think that you know I I'm very excited about this I have done a lot of reading and it's just like extremely inspiring to to to go to her pages and and because it really helps us to connect with the essential and to me got me to a point where although as I read and I and I reflect about it from time to time you do feel a little anxious don't get me wrong this is not I'm not trying to simplify or say that this is easy uh no it's not but I do believe and I I have tried to imagine myself in my most frail years of life with a deep sense of Peace Within and I think that's what where she tries to take us and which is which is possible with peace and with gratitude you know and and she says more which seems crazy but possible uh she says that we can get to this place we can get to to to the dying process carry within ourselves also a deep sense of hope for what is to come absolutely I love two things as we're uh coming to a close is and two things that you you said here uh of course reflecting the the thoughts and the ideas of Joanna DeAngelis is love it is uh the the almost play it with words where we in our society are pushing and spending a lot of energy effort uh money

course reflecting the the thoughts and the ideas of Joanna DeAngelis is love it is uh the the almost play it with words where we in our society are pushing and spending a lot of energy effort uh money into creating and that goes into cosmetic or uh Health Care procedure to make the body that is in essence mortal into Immortal whereas we forget the immortality of what is given to us our spirit because we focus on the material component of our life and not a spiritual life so it's a very cool yeah Aiden Yin right it's it's the the two sides of the same coin and in the other part that you mentioned which is buying into this uh experience of the material the material existence uh what came to my mind was uh the allegory of Plato's Cave for for one of the most well-known uh philosophical uh images right but it's it's super interesting when we think about it as we prisoners in the cave Chained and only looking at projections of what has been done between the fire in us into the into the caves wall and how it takes courage to look outside of what is the projection to the wall and I say this because the projection to the wall could be cultural norns right those that we buy from influencers from social media from pop culture from movies from books literature Cults whatever is out there we if we buy into that but we don't die if deeply into what is that and what is the meaning to My Immortal Souls growth it is just an illusion so with that Susanna I would like to ask you for your final words Before We Say Goodbye well I would invite the audience to talk about it absolutely baggage baggage the very first step you know don't don't be afraid don't be shy uh don't let your fears stop you from talking about it because um whether we like it or not it is coming on everyone's way uh when is the right time to talk about it it is today because you know it's like I'll I'll do this when I'm you know a little older but we don't know if you're gonna end this day inside of physical bodies or

is the right time to talk about it it is today because you know it's like I'll I'll do this when I'm you know a little older but we don't know if you're gonna end this day inside of physical bodies or not right so we always always postponing and um and we should we should there's you know even with little children when my the first chemistry in my house died I told my children who at the time I don't know four or five years old let's um bury the the body of the hamster but we're gonna do a prayer for its spirit and we're gonna thank it for the joyful moments that it provided us so it starts very early on with little children talking about that uh the way but that's healthy and that is a sign of uh maturity because it means that as Immortal base we are fully aware of our immortality and comfortable to address the topic that's awesome thank you thank you Susana thank you everyone who's been watching us today or in a future time thank you so very much for our discussion today