Ep 157 - The Ego and the Creation of Suffering

Hi everyone, welcome back to our psychology and spirituality bridge to a better life discussion. We meet every week and uh we are here with the goal to explore this intersection this quite interesting intersection between psychology and spirituality. And when we do that we it's almost uh inevitable to uncover timeless wisdom that will help you and me all of us here to live with the greatest sense of meaning and purpose. My name is Marcia Trojano and with me today are Dr. Ana Ana Fana. Hi Ana and Jara Corn Goat. Thank you so much for being here. How are you guys doing? >> We are waiting for each other. I'm doing great and much better now that I am with you guys again. >> That's awesome. Thank you, Jasara. Hi everyone. It's a joy. It's so wonderful to be here again to be part of this conversation to be the three of us together and all of you that are just been following us for all those years that we have been joining to discuss this wonderful topic about psychology and spirituality. >> Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you both. Well, our topic today is the ego and the creation of suffering. I know quite a a difficult topic, right? But uh let's think about it as it was a topic inspired by the profound psychological and spiritual teachings of Joanna D'Angelus. And for everyone, if you are a reader, a student of Joanna like I am, uh you may find more information on this topic in her book, Planitude, as well as moments of health and consciousness and many more, but those are the ones that uh I I I have read very recently and find that they're very um easy for us to to comprehend, to understand, to delve into this topic. But in those books specifically, she unveils how attachment, fear, and even a sense of a false identity. Yes. Uh false identity. They all arise from the ego and they are the culprit. They are responsible for generating the majority of our daily suffering. So Josada and Ana, I was thinking that the plan for conversation today, I would love if we can do this is

they are the culprit. They are responsible for generating the majority of our daily suffering. So Josada and Ana, I was thinking that the plan for conversation today, I would love if we can do this is to explore this topic from three points. Number one maybe how the ego creates suffering through as I mentioned attachment, fear and those illusions of identity. But um just I thought about you. How does spiritual psychology differentiate egoic suffering from soul learning and finally how awareness dissolves suffering and restores that emotional and spiritual health. So uh Ana do you want to get started? Do you want to talk to us uh any thoughts on on this topic? >> Yeah. So hi everyone. So it's a very interesting topic because it's so so up to-date right um we are seeing a lot of people suffering um anxieties different types of anxieties depressions uh abuse of alcohol and many other things drugs and this and that and um I was thinking Marca that you said um how the ego creat creates suffering >> and um you referred to Joanna about attachments, fear, illusions. So if we go to the definition of ego, Yun's and Joanna definition of ego is the the center of consciousness right is the ego. So you thought you talked about um false personal uh false personalities something identities right >> and since I I studied the collective because we are all unions very uh worried these days about the collective and the way that we we have been talk talking here in our podcast about this apocalyptic times, right? When things are being unveiled uh and whatever it is that we need collectively to um to develop more consciousness to awaken our spiritual consciousness uh we have to do now in this time. So that's why we have so much conflict. So okay, but then how as you said, how does the ego create uh create um suffering? >> Yeah. >> And I was thinking, aren't we all in prison, let's say, within the ego. We could say that the ego is our small consciousness. I'm sorry if somebody will get upset.

uh create um suffering? >> Yeah. >> And I was thinking, aren't we all in prison, let's say, within the ego. We could say that the ego is our small consciousness. I'm sorry if somebody will get upset. How come the ego is the small? Especially the Freudians probably that think only about the ego. We have been talking here and Joanna sites a lot of this she uses Yungian concepts like the self capital S that people call many times in other um other theories the higher self right so it's our actually our spiritual consciousness we could say that it's okay in in psychic terms represented you would say in the psych by the self. >> This archetype, this primordial archetype of the unity of um that it's in the depths of our of our unconscious and in connection immerse in the transpersonal dimension of the psych which is the collective unconscious for many people. I think people know more this term collective unconscious. So of course in in this level if it is transpersonal we are talking about our spiritual level. So this is so so important that we don't have only the ego consciousness. But for many many of us until this day and age that we are living people think they are only the ego only this personality only this body only this kind of bunch of sensations and learning process that we have here that we are living. So I would say I will give you something really um really showy in a certain way but I would say that um we are kind of stuck in the ego just for us to make an image right collectively we think and a lot of us and you know try to really think that we are only what we are here understand ourselves elves and to this day I think that's amazing but I have been talking with some actually fortunately is not the majority of people that I talk to but there are some people and we are talking about people with a lot of study PhDs and things like that that to this day they don't believe there is the unconscious can you believe that right so we are talking only of consciousness

e are talking about people with a lot of study PhDs and things like that that to this day they don't believe there is the unconscious can you believe that right so we are talking only of consciousness oh no what is the unconscious this doesn't exist is the only thing that exists is something that I can uh even medical colleagues, medical personnel or from the you know the health system and all of that. Um I have heard many people say no there isn't such such thing as the unconscious that is you know think people psychologists psychiatrist and other uh philosophers whatever this is philosophy this is something that you were talking about the illusion right uh our false identities so all of this and actually fortunately as I told you it's not the majority I think people are awakening to th this actually this reality. Let's step out of the illusion and understand and I think I would love to to listen now to talk about this uh spiritist psychology the point of view that spiritist brings because what we are talking is that to to get out of this prison cell what are we doing stuck in the ego and when we are stuck in the ego thinking totally identified with the body with this personality is I'm not saying people that we should oh okay now I can you know I'm I don't know who I am and I can be anything and all of that it's not you know of course not that but to understand that we are at this moment in time in time this personality this identity but we are much much more than that and if we get stuck In the ego of course we are going to be the ego if you think um it's kind of very proud. It's a part of our psych that is very proud because the ego develops for adaptation in this life in this material life >> and it it has to struggle a lot since we are babies to survive >> to understand father and mother to understand that they are in the when we are babies the ego is developing that they are the source >> of uh you know of the our possibilities to grow to maintain life. So we need

d father and mother to understand that they are in the when we are babies the ego is developing that they are the source >> of uh you know of the our possibilities to grow to maintain life. So we need them. We need people that take care of us when we are children. Of course we are going the ego is going to develop trying to uh you know to make people happy to think that I'm so cute that I'm so nice that I have nice qualities. So all of this makes the ego very strong and I'm not saying when I say strong I'm not saying uh you know health healthy exactly can be healthy but if I'm strong in a sense that I'm proud that I think that I am only this right in this sense >> then of course I'm not going to think is there such a thing as the unconscious because I don't have the power over the unconscious, right? And I have some a dimension within myself that I don't have control. Imagine that for the ego. >> Yeah. And I love I love Yeah. I love that. And before you talk about it, maybe we can just uh talk a little bit how I see or most of us would hear your your voice uh Ana because um to me and I'm trying to unpack it. So help me here right? Uh if we go into say you know classic psychology and we say okay tell me define what does what is the ego and ego we can say well it's the eye right the eye that uh function that will organize what my thoughts my memories how I perceive myself how I introduce myself and when we pivot that to Joanna then uh She goes right into what you said, right? The ego also takes the role of this mask of illusions, which is exactly that identity, the false identity, right? Uh why is it false? Well, because it's it's um based on say social conditionings, based on fear, especially in this world that we're living in, right? and and Jos uh insecurity all those attachments unresolved trauma etc etc. So as it builds those uh masks uh based on illusion, it also with the function of protecting us to this world to survive this world. It also leads us to um a need to and I'm

unresolved trauma etc etc. So as it builds those uh masks uh based on illusion, it also with the function of protecting us to this world to survive this world. It also leads us to um a need to and I'm I'm saying this because that's how you left your discussion. this incredible need to control, this incredible need to possess, this incredible thirst and desire to be recognized, right? And and so it is the from that perspective that the ego is actually pushing us to suffer a great deal. But um I'd love to hear from Josada. just from a spiritual point of view what what are your thoughts perhaps that you can add to this discussion >> okay guys you you also bring so so many interesting things I have a thousand thoughts in my mind that I I wanted to to share with you but let's uh organize things I I >> sure >> the first thing is um we have to start by being open mind >> okay Um it's very easy can be very comfortable for us and for the ego to say I can only accept what I see what I touch what I understand. Uh we can live in an ostrich complex. I just thought thought about this one. Okay. And I bear go with me for a minute like you know we bury our heads in the sand and I'm not seeing anything nothing is happening. So we cannot live in those times anymore. So the first thing we have to be is to open our minds to new possibilities to new visions we may not understand. I don't understand why am I talking live to you you now I know that there are satellites wavelengths at place but I don't see it then >> I mean but it's happening right so >> this is what we have to think about it I don't see it but it is happening >> so um >> I I am some someone because well like her dei used to say I think therefore exist. So I I exist and in the spiritist p spiritual perspective this exists goes beyond 60 70 80 100 years of living in just one physical body. So just one and one life it would be enough for us to you know uh to be here and analyzing things. But can we imagine if we bring into place other you

80 100 years of living in just one physical body. So just one and one life it would be enough for us to you know uh to be here and analyzing things. But can we imagine if we bring into place other you know other experiences? But we have this idea that somehow our lives are represented by that Greek uh ancient Greek image of the theater that you have you know a mask that is crying the sadness and a mask that is laughing is the comedy and where is the point and where should we be living in the middle >> we can I mean we cannot live life without seriousness. Oh, it's just a comedy and I cannot live life just you know as everything is just um a playground. It is not. So, and this is how you know I I think in in psychology we have this idea of reconciliation with what we uh we strive in order to survive according to our limited knowledge or the limited knowledge our personalities our e ego have with what am I to become? When you come to a child, think about this. I think you know, even though the child can see, you go to the child and say, "You know what? One day you're going to be like this grownup person." And God forbid you you point out an elderly person, right? >> Yeah. >> No, I'm never going to be like that. This is, you know, and this is too much. They can see. Listen, I was you. I lived in your place. I was like a baby. I grown up when we are you are going through this process. This is impossible and this is what we have to think about now when uh I mean when we are dealing with this questions and of course they are the perennial questions of life like where did I come from? what am I doing here to where am I going in in terms of um understanding why do I need to be so attached what led us to be like that and evolution progress there was a time that perhaps we had to be more selfish who I mean the the life conditions were so much harder and it's not like we had this rapport with each other like we have it today so to but Today it is asking for a new paradigm and we are still trying to live

the the life conditions were so much harder and it's not like we had this rapport with each other like we have it today so to but Today it is asking for a new paradigm and we are still trying to live in the old one and while I'm trying to live in the old one not adapting to the new one I'm going to suffer I'm going against the current so I'm going to stop here so that you guys can comment. I I love that the whole idea that uh uh one form of attachment is this inability to transcend our old ways of working. So maybe I don't know um Ana do you want to talk a little bit about what Joanna brings a lot right which is this um atavic uh inheritance which is things that we bring from our past that we keep going back to it and we don't even know why we do this. Do you want to talk a little bit about it and and maybe link it to what Josad was saying that uh those this this constant going and I'm I'm I my gesture here is is going back right trying to fall from my chair. But how how do we do this? Why is it so intrinsic in our lives or um many of who we know to be stuck as you said in the ego but also stuck in the old ways of working instead of being ready to to go into a new way of life, a new paradigm, a new expanded consciousness. >> Yeah. Wow. I I think them we have a lot of work to do with the ego. Yeah, a lot of work because being so proud, you know, um and in this vision um of uh dividedness. >> Yeah. >> That it's being really um kind of increasing in this day and age, right? that um people get really um I'm not that I'm not that that I'm belong to that group and not the to the other and this on that country and culture. So okay when we are here in this life material life >> uh we are going to have experiences as you said and just also >> our egos uh they they have a really important part in our psych as our body right we need the body to manifest here so that the soul can the spirit incarnated so the soul can learn can have the experience that uh it proposed you know in before incarnate incarnation

s our body right we need the body to manifest here so that the soul can the spirit incarnated so the soul can learn can have the experience that uh it proposed you know in before incarnate incarnation right this incarnation >> so we need the ego as you said Mara to the functions of the ego the the memory the thinking process right the attention what am I paying attention to so to be oriented right in time and space and all of that. So all of that and many more are um functions of the ego and as our body has a lot of um organs and systems that we need to manifest here so that we can have this experience grow old and all of that. But the thing is that I think the ego where I was listening to Josana the ego is kind of a synthesis if we could say of all our experiences in this life >> right we are growing we are learning to about the world about ourselves how to relate with one another uh but also um synthesis of all the the lives that we have lived lived before previously, right? Because to live a life is to experience, to have experience, to acquire knowledge from the mind, from the heart, from the, you know, so the soul can evolve righteous can um one one day we can be like in the angelic level. I hope I get there. I don't know how many billions years but at some point what is the time right only for our egos we need all we have the time here we have the day and but for our souls our spirit well we have eternity right but for our egos that it has to deal with this material world and with this kind of small consciousness I think the ego mar I would love to hear you Guys, I think we kind of because we lose connection when we incarnate to the knowledge of our of our spirit of course that it's much more than ours small ego small consciousness. So our higher self without with the knowledge of the self. So because we we kind of forget we lose connection at least for some time in our lives. That's why getting old, I don't mind getting old because it's cool. Because we need

h the knowledge of the self. So because we we kind of forget we lose connection at least for some time in our lives. That's why getting old, I don't mind getting old because it's cool. Because we need to get old. We need all the experience of a lifetime >> to do what? To do what Yung and Joanna calls us to do that it's to >> understand um Josar was thinking um was was saying that I think therefore I exist, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. the philosopher the great philosopher that said that. So we need to be aware of ourselves and in the beginning of this life the ego gets little by little is like climbing a stair or whatever little by little is getting aware of this personality this experience the people that I relate my family my father mother sister brothers and all of that but since we go we get old older we have different experiences. We have the the brain developing uh you know we have all the the different organs and different experiences. So what's going uh to happen is that we are going to think better. We are going to have a thinking process more sophisticated if we could say. And then uh it starts as Jung says after we leave uh you know uh childhood and teenage years when we get to adult adult um >> adulthood. So we are in this time where we have enough connection we even if we don't know that with our unconscious and the self capital S the higher self starts kind of calling the ego so that we start remembering we start relating to the unconscious to remembering in a sense to having having intuitions for instance dreaming special dreams we call we Yians call the big dreams right that we have the small dreams about the complexes in daily life and we have the big dreams the archetypal dreams let's say that that is the self calling that is the soul calling the ego so to reconnect to make this reconnection of the the small consciousness our ego They think it's so great. You know, the ego think it's so cool. It's so proud of of itself. So, we need to some humility to be humble with

make this reconnection of the the small consciousness our ego They think it's so great. You know, the ego think it's so cool. It's so proud of of itself. So, we need to some humility to be humble with ourselves, right? And try uh to make this inner journey and to listen to a higher consciousness that exists within oursel. This is not easy task to do people. That's a lot of work with the ego because the ego >> uh still thinks um you know old habits as Jos was saying and still thinks uh it's so powerful and that I have to protect and control as you were saying control everything control others control myself I don't want to see that I and I don't want to to relate to this aspect of myself that maybe is actually acting in my life very strongly that we call the unconscious. >> But I have to you talked previously about fear that Jonah calls us to pay attention in fear. >> So I keep uh asking we and you know mainstream whatever whatever mainstream usually try to control people with fear. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So we have fear of aliens, we have fear of one another, we have fear of this and that spirits and this and that. That's all illusion because in the end we are all part of the creation the creator god as right doesn't matter if we are born in this earth or whatever mention of my father uh we we are born in uh the thing is that we are part of this higher intelligence if we could say right and I love to say here just about that. So if we understand that the ego is a synthesis >> right of all all our experiences okay we can think wow that's cool I have a lot of stuff material a lot of knowledge >> but I have to be humble because I have lost temporarily the connection >> with the higher self. >> Can I can we >> Yeah. Yeah. Now can we go into that Josada because as Anna mentioned right the idea here from a suffering um the ego creating or suffering uh as we incarnate you said on a that we lose connections right we incarnate a new life a new a new personality etc. And uh you also mentioned fear is while we're

ring um the ego creating or suffering uh as we incarnate you said on a that we lose connections right we incarnate a new life a new a new personality etc. And uh you also mentioned fear is while we're craving this connection that I no longer have. I have to forge those connections. One of the mechanism to cause that the ego causes um suffering is part of our survival mechanism which is fear. And uh you mentioned several types of fear and I I'm wondering uh Josar if we can also talk about the connection as it relates also the desire for connecting with the fear of abandonment of rejection of failure. Right? Which also goes back to what we mentioned previously about the need to control. But can you talk a little bit about that aspect of it's no longer material but it is completely related as you mentioned an to the ego's pride and arrogance right so I I I I need to to make sure I create this illusion this camouflage so that I can disguise my say deeper wounds that I may have and I keep working on that but it's all based on fear. What are your thoughts just any? >> I was thinking that you know because of this bride you know that we have >> even though we may not be living or having wonderful and happy experiences at the moment. Mhm. >> Uh being guided by the ego according to how I view it may make me believe that I am the best version of myself. >> And I guarantee to you you're not I'm not as well, >> you know. But we have this idea. I mean this is the best that I can I can be. that is the the best that I can conquer and uh you know being it through the different stages of life being it through the different experiences like we were saying okay I wanted to grow old but I don't want to go to grow that old or things like that so I'm comfortable with or you know I I I somehow most of us the majority of us will have a me mechanisms to be able to deal with the burden with the pain with the suffering we are having even if we we are not happy with that we may not happy with

ow most of us the majority of us will have a me mechanisms to be able to deal with the burden with the pain with the suffering we are having even if we we are not happy with that we may not happy with that we may wish for better days but somehow it's in the instinct of survival >> that I have somehow to survive >> and so um but but you see the unknown is is something that we are are normally just fearing. >> Yeah. >> So if someone says go through that way, I don't know that way. I know this way. It may it may not be nice, but I I'm I'm kind of already learning how to deal with those things. And so there is this resistance and this resistance of the ego because at the same time we think you know my ideas my way of thinking my way of living even if my life is not just a bed of roses or no no one is we are going to immediately say that justifying that I I don't mind mine doesn't have to be as well we just deal with that but I was thinking the other Today actually this week I was giving a talk about the times are changing and what image that came to my mind and I thought it was a very interesting example in terms of you know this ego this growth this resistance is like it's very similar when we are going through childhood and like a a baby a child going through that phase where you lose a tooth or teeth you And it hurts. Um, oh boy, it hurts. It causes you a lot of a lot of side effects, right? You don't you go through that the first time, you don't want to go through that again. I don't want to achie I don't I mean, there may be uh uh rewards because of that. I'm going to the uh to to receive gifts, whatever. But I don't want to go through that pain again. And then people will come to you. But don't worry, a new tooth is going to grow. I don't I don't want a new tooth. I'm I'm happy with mine. Are you your your face is going to change? You You're really happy to be with baby teeth when you know your face is this big? And then there is this phase that I think is the phase I mean it can be

e. Are you your your face is going to change? You You're really happy to be with baby teeth when you know your face is this big? And then there is this phase that I think is the phase I mean it can be considered the phase that we are living in where I'm toothless and you are going to tell the child or you know the immature individual like ourselves don't worry a new one is coming when I don't see it what I see is that I don't have a a ke at Oh right. So this is this is the the resistance you know we have to go through those changes they are painful when we go through the okay I accept that it's going to be painful to >> uh and I'm when I say painful I'm not uh meaning uh and and I mean it's it's it becomes more like a suffering like we were talking about before Marcia when There is lack of comfortism of understanding that is a phase that I have to go through. >> I make that pain into a suffering that is you know the pain of the soul because an acceptance and and so um I said okay I I followed your advice. Let's say that we we we could have a say on that right I your advice. I let my my old teeth go away, but I don't see anything happening now, right? It's where we are. >> Yeah. >> I I immediately want to see a substitution. I don't understand that there is the moment the process. >> Yes. >> And the process is one pushing the other. And we could think about that all the new generations we went through that we are going to go through that that in a different side of the story when we were younger and now the youngster are going to be doing that to us. They pushing us. Come on your ways. It's time for a new tooth. one that is reflect what you need now and this is I I mean trying to depicting an image is what I think we go through you know this process okay I understand but it's hard I don't see any changes I don't think I don't see a good substitute and then then all of a sudden things change so we have to give time for this process to happen within ourselves. We have to accept that we are more

changes I don't think I don't see a good substitute and then then all of a sudden things change so we have to give time for this process to happen within ourselves. We have to accept that we are more than just the eyes can see. And uh actually and I in terms of uh the cards uh saying and it's in in in spiritual term in the spiritism we would say I am I am well he said I am I am therefore I think I am >> so it seems basically the same but it's not I am so there is this moment of growth and I think this is how we have to see you know this message and this growing of us and I mean I myself I love to think that there is room for improvement and that I can be a much better version of myself each year each time each each moment that represents a renovation and that the more I understand and accept that the closer I will be to fullness to planitude to situation to being be in balance with the self. >> Yeah. and and uh Jos and Anna I'm thinking I was just as you were talking beautifully so and I love that that metaphor or the you know the image of a tooth pushing the the old the new tooth pushing the old one uh the adult tooth pushing the the baby tooth out and it's painful bleeding etc etc. It is a necessary step to be ready for the new and that in between state what we were and what we will be is one that requires patience and it requires just um acceptance right but if I go back to some of the things that we're saying if you don't mind I was trying to to to remember some of the examples of how ego brings or creates suffering. And you mentioned suffering versus pain. But um to me it's it's all about uh what Joanna brings to us in terms of how the ego creates masks. And let's say um for example, well I'm a good person that's my mask. Or you Josara, you say, "Oh, I'm the strong person. That's another mask." Um, you're not it. Uh, no. But let's pretend you were. You say, "I'm the victim. I'm the controller. I'm the martyr. I'm the savior." There's so many of those uh identity the the false identity that

" Um, you're not it. Uh, no. But let's pretend you were. You say, "I'm the victim. I'm the controller. I'm the martyr. I'm the savior." There's so many of those uh identity the the false identity that once we adopted as who you are and unfortunately this is you know if anybody has not heard that yet we're not what we create. >> Oh my I have to say something. >> Yes. Go ahead. I I think that and I I I think you're going to agree the two of you uh you know being a bit older I'm really in that phase where I would say to people please don't label me >> not even if you want to call me sage don't label me >> and I was thinking then when I was thinking that when you were saying I thought about Jesus when the disciples came to him and said uh you're good. You're the master and you're good. And he said, "Wait, yes, I am a master because I am a teacher, but good is good." >> Oh, that is awesome. It's so important. Yes. >> Even Jesus wanted a label. >> Yeah. uh and uh something that he he he thought I mean you don't know what you're talking about when you are talking about the ultimate model of goodness is not me >> and well sorry >> no this is awesome this is really important right and and and the the flip side of it is if let's say I I accept and I think and I mentioned right I'm imprisoned by that false identity. Um, and my ego is, you know, h just there's a handcuff here to say, Marcia, you're the good person, right? You're the good person, whatever the the label may be. Uh, what what does it mean to me? And and why does it cause suffering? And to me it is a question of well and now that I bought in the idea of being a good person is just an example. Now I need to to watch and look at my performance or how am I, you know, uh because I'm not authentically good, how can I pretend to be good even when I'm not or what is it? But also deep down it's the question of what is my emotional truth, right? What is this uh adopting to a label that I'm not there? As you mentioned, Jesus said

be good even when I'm not or what is it? But also deep down it's the question of what is my emotional truth, right? What is this uh adopting to a label that I'm not there? As you mentioned, Jesus said I'm not good. Good is God. Right. But how can um following adopting a label can actually prevent us from growing spiritually, right? And I and I I uh for example, so many of us and I know Joelena speaks a lot about it. So many of us um have been required to have a public persona, a social persona and it it is exhausting, right? because we are competing, we are comparing, we are uh you know personal brand identity as as as it is and we need to be on quue. We need to be on point. And guess what? Because that's not what we are. It is just really too much for any one of us and it stops us from growing. It it handcuffs us. It imprisons us. So, uh, maybe we can wrap it up and I don't know if, uh, I see Anna is looking at me like, I don't know what you're talking about, but, uh, maybe wrap it up with how can we maybe uh, finish our discussion today with what are the things that we should all be aware in this this fight between, if you will, ego and and and self. How can we understand that uh perhaps those egoic suffering source of suffering uh prevent our soul lessons? >> Yeah, I was listening to you both and well it's a lot of stuff. We can certainly go to another broadcast but you know that youngans we connect a lot with the image right and I was listening to Josara talking about teeth and remembering when I was a child and we we would lose a tooth right and the feeling and all all of that but also came to my mind uh in the middle ages uh you know the relic ics of the saints. >> Yeah. >> Were teeth, fingernails, um kind of pieces of hair and things like that because okay, if I have a relic and we I don't know you guys, but sometimes we have small um you know the baby tooth of our children kept there lock or something like that. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Right. because it's cute and we

lic and we I don't know you guys, but sometimes we have small um you know the baby tooth of our children kept there lock or something like that. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Right. because it's cute and we reminds us when they were babies and things like that. But the thing is that okay if I had in the middle ages if I had a relic of the sense of a scent a person that consider sent by whatever church I belong to then a small piece of that person stays with me. That's it's a totally egoic thinking. >> Yes. It's material, right? We have our memories, but most of all, we have the feelings and the knowledge of the heart. Wisdom is all about the knowledge of the heart. So when I was thinking also Jesus everybody is watching chosen and thing like that because wow then the disciples uh come to you know they are people like us in the TV series for instance we can connect to them but when Jesus says some said something like that think he was teaching the disciples that the good greater good with capital G let's say right >> so um is in the creator but we are part of the creation so but I think it was there that teaching just because we are of course there are lots of um of um of of steps in the in a teaching of a higher soul like Jesus right >> but um For purpose of the discussion about the ego, I think he was trying to teach the disciples not to be in this false identity that Marca was remembering that Joanna was not to connect thinking that oh I'm so good now I'm a disciple of the master because >> to be archetype in terms of archetypes if I have if I if we are talking about the master we are all always talking about the student a disciple deciple and if I am a disciple of that master that is so important then I'm important too because I'm disciple of that master right so I am a chosen person so I think Jesus was teaching them at that point to be humble in the sense that we are talking about not think as our egos think that we the ego think it's the big stuff you know wow I'm great I'm proud

I think Jesus was teaching them at that point to be humble in the sense that we are talking about not think as our egos think that we the ego think it's the big stuff you know wow I'm great I'm proud of so to not connect to this identity and and it I think he was helping them to understand that the the greater good and all the love and uh that it's the source of creation belongs to the creator but when he says also the father and I are one when he connects to the the greater their consciousness the Christ consciousness with God he was also being uh giving a nondual teaching >> and when we say a nonduel from the the perspective of dep psychology we are talking about this um proximity of the ego being very humble and connecting but searching and trying to connect and and understanding that it has to uh that in conversation let's say with the higher self because then there is a unity then the opposites get closer and we get closer to God that is the ultimate reality the ultimate unity right so when we suffer a lot to go back to suffering to fear I think we could say from the point of view of the ego we are suffering because we lost the connection with our higher self with our souls and if we lose the connection we lose the understanding of the purpose of suffering because as Marshall was saying and Joanna uh says all the time >> if we understand why we are facing uh and that spirit is knowledge righteous >> understand why we are facing certain challenges why am I suffering because the ego is suffering for the higher myself. Wow, I'm doing the job that I'm supposed to do. I'm going through these challenges to learn. For instance, when we lose somebody that we love so much and we all have lost a lot of people, of course, we are going to lose a lot of people that we love so much. But the ego is going to suffer, of course, because attachments because, well, I wanted so much to have to hug this person. We Brazilians love to hug and kiss. I'm sorry to tell people, but come that

. But the ego is going to suffer, of course, because attachments because, well, I wanted so much to have to hug this person. We Brazilians love to hug and kiss. I'm sorry to tell people, but come that we're not going to hug anyone. We're just going to hug if you people allow it. Some people, I don't go I'm not going to the crazy Brazilians that hug and kiss all the time. But it's something that it's very pretty much in our culture. But okay, I wanted to hug so much that person that left the carnal world, the material world. But if I think with the understanding, if I help my ego and I think with the understanding of my soul, my knowledge, my wisdom of the heart, that spiritist knowledge and Joanna helps us so much to get in contact with to remember, right? That's all about rem inner journey remembering who we truly are. Then if I do that what happens is that I understand the purpose of this um this momentary separation let's say I I feel happy for the loved one that has freed uh himself herself of this experience because he has done everything or she everything that he or she was was supposed to learn to do and they are free again. So I think that's so beautiful that we make again this connection of ourselves and we can at certain points I hope I do hope as Jesus said the father and I are one >> to have this knowledge from the heart that I belong to something so greater so loving the create the creator the creation right and then I am one with the father. Wow. I hope I get that. I said maybe billions of years in our time. But >> well, and just one last thing to say. >> Go ahead. Uh Joanna cites Jung and I wrote that because I thought I thought it would be useful for us to think uh that Jung says that existence is only real when it is conscious for someone and that man's human being's task is to become aware of the contents that press upwards coming from the unconscious because the unconscious is connecting with Joanna. Joanna is citing Yung because what she wants to tell us is the unc in the

become aware of the contents that press upwards coming from the unconscious because the unconscious is connecting with Joanna. Joanna is citing Yung because what she wants to tell us is the unc in the unconscious is the spirit as she says yung self the concept of the self is our spirit. So she's calling to us to to make this connection again. Now here that's all about this transition phase ph face phase that we are going you know as collectively uh becoming aware that we are so much more than that sorry Mar >> no that's lovely that's really lovely Josara do you want to say any final words about uh this topic >> very quickly I started by saying be open mind >> yes >> and I going to end by saying, "Be authentic at least to yourself." >> Oh, lovely, lovely both of you. And for all of us, right, we're we're at the end. And just a reminder that uh today's conversation was an exploration about really the subtle ways that our ego creates suffering. And it creates through Yes. It's easy to understand attachment to people, to things, to positions, to to those masks, right? To those illusions uh through fear and those false identities. And we also talked a little bit about uh how to distinguish perhaps between um our illusions versus our lessons. And uh this is here all of us this invitation for us to learn to dissolve egodriven patterns so that we can awaken our higher state of consciousness. So as a reminder Joanna tells us pain never a punishment. It is this invitation to expand. Therefore when we talk about suffering we need to be aware of it. Right? I wanted to enjoy to to really thank you for joining us uh today and um to thank our sponsors uh Mansaldu Camino, the United States Spiritist Federation, the International Spiritist Council, Ammy Brazil and Ani and Josada. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us today. A >> pleasure. Hope to see you soon.