Ep 146 - Pleasure, Engagement, Meaning: The Psychology of Happiness

Hi everyone, welcome back. I am so happy to be back for another episode of psychology and spirituality. I'm your host Marcia Trojano and today I'm joined once again by this amazing thoughtful uh brilliant Dr. FA with whom I love to explore this profound inter intersections perhaps is the better word between psychology and spiritism but also with the human experience. Welcome back Anai. It is so good to see you but how are you? >> I'm great and it's uh I'm very thrilled to be here with you again and everybody else. Thank you so much, Marcia, for having me. >> Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. But for everyone out there, um for the past few episodes, we've been exploring topics that I believe touch the very core of uh our our human experience, right? We we've been discussing the role of families, schools and how in different ways but together they form emotional patterns that shape our identity. So today I propose that we can take this further into no longer the family and the school but to the wider circle. Right? And uh I propose that we talk about relationships especially within the family and uh as they extend to society right they they are not a part of life they are life in a way and I thought I had a visual image in my mind that I would like to share before we start our conversation and um we can see perhaps if you can imagine an orchestra right and there it's it's Not showtime yet. Everybody's starting to take their seats, but the orchestra is preparing, right? And what do they do? They they are they ensure that each instrument is tuned. So the violins are doing that. The flute are adjusting. All the percussionists are warming up and everyone in in this cacophony of sounds, but they're getting ready to make sure that during the presentation of whatever um music they have in the program that uh not a single instrument will be off key. Right? So what they're doing they're really um vibrating um harmony. So if we think about it um society is very much like that orchestra

in the program that uh not a single instrument will be off key. Right? So what they're doing they're really um vibrating um harmony. So if we think about it um society is very much like that orchestra and uh we you and I all of us are different notes within that score music and when one instrument or one note or one heart is out of uh out of harmony then we start to see the dissonance right and the dissonance itself will echo in our homes, our friendships, our neighborhoods, our places of work, the world at large. So with that in mind, maybe we can reflect um on a simple question. How are we doing? How are we living our lives? How are we contributing to make life an environment where harmony exists or are we on a day-to-day basis, hourby- hour basis, uh minuteby minute or are we contributing to conflicts in this symphony of life? And why do I say this uh Ana? It's because Jonah D'Angelus really alerts us that an emotionally unbalanced person has this incredible power to affect an entire family. And with each one of us as emotionally unbalanced individuals, we are impacting in a negative manner, if you will, society as a whole. So let's let's maybe spend a few minutes of our time. I'd love three topics for us to talk. So I'm going to give you uh maybe where my mind is and I maybe we can talk a little bit about society and how it begins the the idea of society but it's all connected to the home. Then we can talk a little bit about the elements that truly creates happiness. And this is to me the the main topic for us today. but also drawing from your expertise or your expert opinion how connection is both a psychological and a spiritual requirement to live well. So with that uh I just want to say um Joanna uses a quite powerful metaphor right in in in the same idea of the symphony. She says one emotionally dissonant individual can throw off the entire family harmony just like a bed note in a symphony. Can you talk about this idea of harmony and how the home is is really

ymphony. She says one emotionally dissonant individual can throw off the entire family harmony just like a bed note in a symphony. Can you talk about this idea of harmony and how the home is is really the birth the the the the beginning of society. >> Wow. It's a lot of stuff [laughter] but let's let's go ahead. I was listening to you Maria and um you know that as youngans right we connect pretty much with images. >> Yes. like in dreams, right? And it came to my mind two things um about what John is saying >> uh because she talks about the individual, right? >> Yes. >> Um the pleasure, the engagements, the meaning. We're going to be talking about that that we all have. >> Yeah. >> And the way that we relate to each other, right? >> Yeah. and um and and searching for these elements that we um the pleasure, engagement and meaning. But then we are individuals as you said and we are are part of a family >> and the family and all the families are part of parts of society, right? Mhm. >> So how as you said and I love the image of the um symphony you know >> and uh it came to my mind a lot of things. There was a movie uh about um well I it will come to my mind during our talk but I think it was um something about Beethoven. Do you remember that? >> I do not know. Tell me more. Tell us more. [laughter] >> I will. I will. The secret of Beethoven. Can it be something like that? >> Well, I I will I will have a quick look about but it's h came to my mind that image >> of the the symphony and if you have a dishonorant um anything that doesn't >> you know it's not quite well. >> Yeah. Uh for me of course I wouldn't um recognize or maybe some of us wouldn't um you have to be very well educated uh in in terms of music to if it is only one violin for instance that it's out of tune >> maybe in among lots of violins you you won't hear if you are not a mystro or you uh a musician but as you said there is a kind of a contamination as Joanna says right >> because um other for instance I'm

be in among lots of violins you you won't hear if you are not a mystro or you uh a musician but as you said there is a kind of a contamination as Joanna says right >> because um other for instance I'm thinking about about the as you said the the symphony and a lot of musicians together lots of instruments but the person next to that violin will hear right >> and um others um musicians probably will get confused or some or not play so well because the colleague by uh the other musician by his side or her side is is not in tune. >> Um okay. So what happens is that um in the end the symphony is not going to be so good, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So >> so you know the way it could be. So I think if we Yeah. Oh yes. Maybe this secret of Beethoven. I think I'm I'm trying it's coming to my mind. [laughter] I'm talking to you guys. and thinking at the same time what is [laughter] it um but uh what I think it's very important for us to think why is Joanna asking us to think of this connection >> yes >> interconnection and the way that we think um individually and then in families and then in society right as a whole the all the all the families and everybody together. >> Mhm. >> Because it's like in the symphony, if some of us are out of tune, it's impossible. I'm thinking about the collective unconscious and also spiritually and and psychologically speaking, >> we are evolving together. >> Yeah. >> So if um why Jesus said, you know, love your neighbor as yourself, right? love in terms of get to know to understand to be intimate but not intimate in the sense I want to know everything that there is to know about that person no it's not that is to be like you said in this beautiful image in tune with right compassionate >> uh to be fraternal compassionate to really love to be open to what can I do for my neighbor what I would like someone to do would do to me so I can do to them also. So when we really understand that we are okay maybe tiny parts of a big thing >> that we call the human family and and in

ghbor what I would like someone to do would do to me so I can do to them also. So when we really understand that we are okay maybe tiny parts of a big thing >> that we call the human family and and in our small planet but um you know like I think there is a small movie by Carl Sean that is said the dot >> and then you can see the the earth from far above right. >> Yeah. But it like like um like some sand, you know. Um that okay, we have a lot of uh of sand at the beach, but you know, a small a tiny bit portion has a lot of it. And but without that tiny bit portion, there wouldn't be the seashore. We could not you know and all the animals and all the everything that the life that it's there right and the nature and that we can enjoy but >> okay we don't know the the complexity of that um that ecosystem right but we use this ecosystem is so important for us without the sand without the ocean we wouldn't even be here Right. >> So to have this love and to understand that we are part of something bigger and that yes we if we are not in um some sort of balance >> if we don't look for our um individuation oh and Marsha found is the pale blue dot. >> Yeah. 2009. Thank you Marca by Carl Sean. So if we if we don't understand that uh we have to search for our inner development >> because of ourselves because of to have love for ourselves but also because of each person in the globe because we are all interconnected in ways that we cannot even imagine. But the spiritist uh psychology and spiritist knowledge and other spiritualist um knowledge that are around the globe uh they tell us that that and especially as a young analyst in um Jung's depth psychology we understand through the collective unconscious and the archetypes that we share you know Everything all the learning that we have like individuals and through many incarnations >> that we acquire that we are able to to have. So I think this is very important and I think the the image that you gave about the you know a lot of musicians and instruments

hrough many incarnations >> that we acquire that we are able to to have. So I think this is very important and I think the the image that you gave about the you know a lot of musicians and instruments and how we need each other so that the the music and the the symphony can be played and can be listened and more than that Marca we have to educate versus in this analogy okay we have to educate our ears to to identify and to you know really enjoy the song. >> Yeah. >> But we also need to educate ourselves to play the instruments and to play in tune together with the others that are playing with us. >> Yeah. Yeah. So the disharmony of having you know aggressions or aggressiveness and uh fear and all this anxiety, envy, all these kind of feelings towards a neighbor. >> Yeah. >> Towards some someone that I don't even know. >> Yeah. >> Right. But because of of some disconnection uh within myself or because of the collective social prejudice for instance then I project onto other you know others uh I project something of my inner world so then we are in this mess that everybody's enemy or everybody [laughter] else >> and you know things like that I don't know what do you think No, what comes to my mind and and I appreciate uh you referencing Jung and the collective unconscious as a by the way uh I was attending a conference. It was very interesting. I thought of you and I actually uh was attending a conference on artificial intelligence just last week. was the whole week we had several segments on AI and uh this uh quite young and remarkable person was talking about all the uh predictive uh capabilities and this is like wow this is all future right but then she says it's really mimicking the collective unconscious and and I I I just thought it was so funny we're we're talking about analysts and data uh scientists and and artificial intelligence and Jung and the idea of the collective conscious comes back to life. And it was fascinating because in a way if all data points are being you know collected

scientists and and artificial intelligence and Jung and the idea of the collective conscious comes back to life. And it was fascinating because in a way if all data points are being you know collected through artificial intelligence, maybe you kind of can tap into to that collective, right? What what what are we thinking? what are we saying? What are we learning as a society? But anyways, back to what you were saying. I I just uh wanted to to pinpoint some of the topics, right? The the first one is u from a family to school to larger society. We understand that family is indeed our first social school. Right? It is in the family that we learn about that harmony that we're talking about. So from from the um uh analogy of the symphony um if you think about our own households and we all know and I there is always at least one black sheep right there's always one person that is dealing with um difficulties such as uh I don't know anger uh anxiety and all sorts of um aspects uh that uh even withdrawals or neglect all of it which leads us to that dissonance within the family, right? But uh if you think in terms of uh psychology and perhaps the attachment theory, right? those early interactions and and uh those interactions with caregivers and and I say caregivers because it could be a mom, a dad, a nanny, uh grandmother, grandfather, right? An auntie, whatever. It doesn't have to be the mother and father. But those have the im immense uh responsibility, if you will, to help each one of us shape our ability to to form those secure bonds and to be able to learn to regulate our emotions and even empathizing. Right? So it is important when we talk and even card in the spirits book he talks about the family as a miniature of the larger society which means um we need to start learning and I all of us to to be able to teach if you are a caregiver or to learn as an immortal spirit that we are all are uh to learn about responsib ibility also to learn collaboration, cooperation to the larger future society. And of

to teach if you are a caregiver or to learn as an immortal spirit that we are all are uh to learn about responsib ibility also to learn collaboration, cooperation to the larger future society. And of course, this is a big topic for Joanna. Um how when you learn the love for serving, for cooperating, for collaborating, for adding, if you will, those are the seeds for altruism. And I love that. How can we become better? So much better that we become altruistic. That's according to Joanna an end goal for all of us and it's at our fingertips if you will. It's in how we relate to the younger children but also we relate ourselves because we may not have had a so good childhood but we can reignify that childhood. Don't you think? Yes, of course. I totally agree. There are some tricks though that I think we should pay attention. Okay. >> Um I I remember and I have here Joanna um saying that life this is um her words life in society is necessary for the ethical and moral development of individuals responsible for the family group that is taking the first steps towards expanding its relationships with other human segments. Right. >> Yeah. >> So we need to educate ourselves as you were saying and our children >> and young people >> for ethical and moral values as we were saying right because >> this is the the family group like an instrument. Let's think >> uh has to have balance has to have um you know um uh spiritual and psychological development help the children to develop morally ethically as Y is saying. >> Yeah. >> Because then we can expand to other um other people in the society group like friends, families. >> Yeah. But Marsha, I wanted to reflect with with you all >> about uh the persona and the way that we are living nowadays. >> Yeah. >> Unfortunately, right? Unfortunately, I I Yeah, I can tell you're coming with some wakeup call. Don't be polyiana and see things with that rosecoled uh eyes lenses, right? It it is we're living in a society that betrays that uh that call

I I Yeah, I can tell you're coming with some wakeup call. Don't be polyiana and see things with that rosecoled uh eyes lenses, right? It it is we're living in a society that betrays that uh that call for us to be better and to be instrument for that ethical and moral development. Go ahead. >> Yeah. Because here Joanna also said she said nowadays >> Yeah. >> And when I was uh reading this sentence that uh in in one of her books. >> Yeah. >> And I said nowadays let me see when when Devow and Joanna wrote this book. Then it was like 20 years ago, but it's totally today. Unfortunately. >> Yeah. >> Unfortunately. I don't know if I laugh or cry as we say, right? Or both. >> Any or both. Both. >> Yeah. >> So Joanna says that a person she's reflecting upon a person >> can live in a building for instance without make any contact with one's neighbor. you know, ignoring the neighbors, right? Uh and consequently taking him or her, the person, the neighbor as a potential risk and we can extrapolate that to society, to groups, to from different people from different countries for instance. >> So unfortunately so common these days, you know, immigrants and things like that, unfortunately. So uh thus Janna said avoiding any kind of communication for fear of incurring problems and their undesirable consequences. Of course, as a psychiatry, >> a psychiatrist, I of course I thought of, okay, okay, if I'm for instance, I don't know my neighbors, right? And society is not helping. Oh, let's make a party in our street and everybody can bring some cake, cookies, things like that. And let's >> uh, you know, make like um things. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yes. like right in the street like in the past you know so that everybody gets to know >> okay we don't have unfortunately mo many many cities around the globe in different countries >> people don't do that anymore you don't know your neighbors of course and then if I listen to the news or or anything oh maybe I will have some I get afraid that I will be you know there was

untries >> people don't do that anymore you don't know your neighbors of course and then if I listen to the news or or anything oh maybe I will have some I get afraid that I will be you know there was somebody will do something nasty against me. Yeah. >> So then the aggressiveness that I have in myself for instance my shadow aspect maybe whatever you know the person has some kind of aggressive aggressiveness or uh a fear of something of course of being hurt for instance traumas things like that >> but let's remember in this example I don't know my neighbor >> but if I have this inside of me of course what am I going to do in psychological terms. I'm going to project >> all these things that I don't know that are inside myself in my unconscious onto the neighbor whoever he or she is. Right. >> Yeah. >> We we we could call paranoid uh ideiation. >> Yeah. >> Right. It's a symptom >> and I see and I see here in the US, right? It's uh um where some larger neighborhoods of houses, right? And uh it's almost like creating this um neighborhood vigilantism or community vigilantism, if you will, where residents are looking and uh neighborhood watch is is what they call themselves, right? where they have dates of the week, for example, that I am now the the neighborhood watch person and I'm going to look and and if there's uh an issue I'm going to take on my own hands, right? And uh and it's really most of it here from what I understand um is is a reaction to a perception of violence, crime or threats, right? But it's terrible when you cannot be peaceful or relaxed in your own home. >> Yes. So that's what Joanna is asking us. >> Yeah. So if if Marca I know myself it's not to be poliana in the sense oh there [laughter] is no aggression in the world everybody is is very balanced we have a lot of mental health we are so developed emotionally and spiritually of course we are not that we will get there I I really believe that we are evolving as Joanna [clears throat] and beautiful

have a lot of mental health we are so developed emotionally and spiritually of course we are not that we will get there I I really believe that we are evolving as Joanna [clears throat] and beautiful light teachers and other mentor said that's inexraable we are going there we are going there we are evolving >> but of course we have our shadow aspects right >> yes >> and if I don't know that if I don't connect with myself if I stay only in the persona the social mask >> and I overidentify myself with my persona oh I'm so nice >> I'm so I'm okay I love everyone or whatever I'm not aggressive in any way. So uh but the problem is not mine. The problem is the others are the others. The problems are >> you know this society does that is crazy nowadays. The problem is whatever. >> So it's outside of myself. >> Okay. Then I don't have any control because it's outside of myself. Unfortunately society is kind of promoting this this day these days. >> Yeah. or if I only have control if I get together with a lot of angry people and go shouting and >> and and thinking that I'm doing good to the world. >> Of course, I have to, you know, but why can I not, you know, go with everybody else to pray for peace and love in the world to, you know, light candles to sit and meditate together. So you I'm quite sure that if we could do that you know like uh like Gandhi in India right >> so he liberated India from the British Empire at that time >> uh peacefully >> it was the policy of peace right >> without no aggression doesn't unexpected right uh even yeah yeah it's like how could you do Yes. Yeah. Yeah. >> And that beautiful symphony, right? And and so we have to face that >> uh the inner um demons, shadows, aspects of ourselves >> so that we stop projecting >> and feeding the collective shadow. >> Right? because we feed if we don't uh really work integrate our shadow aspects we are going to project and we are going to connect with the collective shadow but well then we got we are in a vicious

> Right? because we feed if we don't uh really work integrate our shadow aspects we are going to project and we are going to connect with the collective shadow but well then we got we are in a vicious circle >> yes >> so I think that is very important as Joanna says well there's somebody new in my neighbor neighborhood >> why am I going to watch and then say wow let's pay attention can be somebody that can harm us. Why don't I make a cake or this wonderful American cookies that you guys do in in United States? We cannot do here in Brazil because we don't have I think the same >> uh the right ingredients that we can we can exchange when we meet each other. So, why don't I make some cookies? Why don't I make a p cake? And I go and present myself. Well, I just wanted to say that you are welcome. We we say here that um kindness, right? Um produces kindness. >> Yes. Yes. >> And violence produces violence. We have some in some cars I see here. Right. Yeah. >> And there's a m a m a song from the 90s. I'm very retro today, [laughter] but I think it's a tenderness and I think it was a very cute uh high school movie and this movie this song is from this movie in it was a tenderness uh the the the music and um yes tenderness to be tender with each other, right? >> And um of course then if I you know if I come to you and I and you are new in my neighborhood and I bring some cookies. >> Yeah. >> Or I bring you know and even if I don't bring anything as you said but I just present myself say hi my name is this if you need if you ever need something uh you can contact me and things like that. It's very difficult and I can tell you as a psychiatrist you know >> that people are going to uh you are going to be number one for the person to project onto you something bad [laughter] right you're not >> it's a destiny it's a destiny you will be there it will happen to you yes >> yeah yeah >> so I just wanted to maybe some somebody that is listening to us want Take a look. There is an essay and you can

t's a destiny it's a destiny you will be there it will happen to you yes >> yeah yeah >> so I just wanted to maybe some somebody that is listening to us want Take a look. There is an essay and you can Google it that by Jung in 1928 but when he talks about the persona and it's the the relations between the ego and the unconscious. Okay. Uh and you people can just Google it and it's very >> okay. then you're going to find if you put kus of yung and the relations uh between the ego and the unconscious. So Jung says that um and I here I'm putting his words. Okay. >> Sure. While the ego hang handles our conscious experiences, we know that um well, Jung is saying that. But here it said while the ego handles our uh conscious experience, it only represents a small portion of our total psych. >> Yeah. very small portion portion beneath our conscious awareness lies a vast unconscious world containing our hidden fears, desires, dreams and deeper aspects of our personality. So you know I think that's very important because if we understand that coming to what you said about educating our children uh the teenagers educating ourselves within our families having patience with one another really listening to one another really understanding if the child uh is full of fear for some of something or not leaving the child by herself or himself you know in the internet. It's seems very simple to say that but it's so so important that parents understand >> that they have to know the children get to know. It's a a soul that's coming here for us to take care and to help this soul has a all of us have some kind of mission here >> right spiritually speaking and we have to connect with ourselves be in peace with ourselves to discover Jung would say our personal myth you know the purpose of our souls here what we decided that We wanted to do in this incarnation to learn to experience and to help our children to understand >> and to be okay with their talents you know or the things that they don't know

what we decided that We wanted to do in this incarnation to learn to experience and to help our children to understand >> and to be okay with their talents you know or the things that they don't know but they are going to get to know with patience because all of us face difficulties and challenges right and we have all the possibilities within ourselves. So I think it's very important to understand then here uh Jung says talks about the persona in this essay because he said of course we know already that is the social mask because the persona is the mask in ancient uh Greek right in the theater >> of ancient Greece >> and he says that of course uh is the this mask that we wear let's say to present ourselves to the world, right? And then of course this mask mediates >> the inner self of each one of us and the society that Joanna is asking us to reflect upon. >> Yeah. Yes. >> So of course we make kind of a compromise uh creating our persona between the individual that we are that we really are and the social expectations. >> Yeah. >> I think this is very important for us to understand because the things that we kind of create a character like in a movie, right? >> Yeah. And we are creating this character every day, right? Uh trying to adapt uh to society. But the problem is that if I overidentify myself with this mask that contains things that I think it's okay. So there's a value in the persona. is part of my personality, but I'm not all of that and I'm not not especially only that. And many times I will have to be and it's very it's much more important to be truth to what I'm feeling inside. >> Yeah. >> Authenticity. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yes. Want me to be, you know? >> Yeah. Can I maybe take this time to pivot to >> to the idea of happiness, right? Because >> because it's intrinsic that notion of persona to protect me, right? So na expects me to behave this way. So I'm going to wear this this mask uh to meet society's expectation and na's expectation. But am I being authentic

ic that notion of persona to protect me, right? So na expects me to behave this way. So I'm going to wear this this mask uh to meet society's expectation and na's expectation. But am I being authentic and do I know when I have to take it off right to to really uh be in touch with who I am? But anyways, Joanna says happiness is built on three pillars. Pleasure, engagement, and meaning. And she says when one pillar is absent, joy becomes incomplete or the sense of happiness doesn't occur. And and I was reading a little bit about the positive psychology model by Seligman where he says right pleasure as the first component is this shortterm joy right this burst of uh oh I'm I'm happy right now I I'm feeling joy but uh um there we also find that engagement on the other hand really requires us to immerse ourselves elves in a fulfilling activity. Right? And we go to the third aspect that Joanna brought that says meaning is the the one element that will allow us to transcend. So from our perspective uh and and we have to to always reference Victor Frankle right uh when he says those who have a why to live can bear anything including anyh how right of how things are. So um maybe we can talk a little bit today on what happens if this is a three-legged stool. What happens when we fall short right to to that sense of happiness and I only focus say on pleasure and I don't find or seek even engagement or meaning. What are your thoughts on? >> Yes, because pleasure we have it even in the brain, right? It is >> something that uh we all seek because we all want something that it's nice and that makes us feel uh better or you know makes us feel uh happy in the sense of uh fulfilling the pleasure. Freud talks about the pleasure principle for instance. We are all looking of course he talked a lot about connected to sexuality right and the libido for Freud is uh the sexual drive. >> Yeah. >> And you know uh but of course you want to it opens the the pleasure is like a a principle that uh

a lot about connected to sexuality right and the libido for Freud is uh the sexual drive. >> Yeah. >> And you know uh but of course you want to it opens the the pleasure is like a a principle that uh helps us >> um to to go in the direction of something that makes me feel nice. But as you said, then she says engagement and I would um she writes about this in other of her texts. She talks about will. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> So to have this will this power and the will and that moves the an energy that moves us towards some goal. But >> and I always and I always picture my mind's eye when she talks about that the idea of flow, right? There is a energy that flows when you are engaged right to do something. You have that deep deep involvement in something is not superficial. Oh, I I'm engaged with blah blah. No, you really it's a lifelong if you will uh commitment to to to that aspect of our lives. >> Yeah. But then she brings differently from other authors as you cited. She brings uh meaning. >> Yeah. >> And as um uh as I re I and other colleagues psychiatrist in psychologist we research uh spirit when we research spirituality >> from the point of view of what science can you know the research that are limited to these days because we have to all develop more our science. But um when we uh what the research that are being done >> in these days all connected connect spirituality with with the search for meaning and purpose in life. >> Yeah. >> So when Joanna says okay the pro pre pleasure principle the engagement the will >> and then the meaning. >> Yes. And when she talk about the meaning, she's talking about spirituality. >> Yeah. >> Right. Because she says that the meaning is the value in Joanna's words uh the value attributed to existence. >> Yeah. >> Existence. The honorable uh objective assigned to the achievements represented by any work in favor of others. So then she's talking totally about what we we have been saying that when Jesus said love thy neighbor as

onorable uh objective assigned to the achievements represented by any work in favor of others. So then she's talking totally about what we we have been saying that when Jesus said love thy neighbor as yourself. So um that's that's the spiritual aspect of when we find meaning in life is not the meaning oh okay now I understand that I needed that job [laughter] >> because the meaning of my life is to be you know boss of somebody else that's not meeting people >> you know that's the ego and the persona and some of complex with him some of our >> inner conflicts because I want to prove to my mom and my dad and some somebody important to my in my life that I have worth you know and that I'm >> I can achieve be king of the world whatever you know this kind of silliness >> so th this is a psychological conflict of course of some inner um uh conflict that the person has. Uh and this is not meaning when Joanna is talking about meaning, right? She's talking about also uh uh this uh she says that indiv the individual that this provides this search for meaning provides the individual >> with a spiritual vision >> of life and of himself. spiritualist vision and also of course then we start okay so then here I'm doing good to others and I'm feeling good so then I go deeper in the question of okay what is my soul telling me that I'm part of you know a bigger family that everyone is important and that the meaning is the soul is in the soul it's not in It's deeper in my soul. >> Yeah. You know, >> and and and unfortunately um and I I thought that you're going to to go further into this, but unfortunately um we live in a time where people and those are words right from Joanna where people share walls but not words, right? So if we talk about virtual networks uh and some people may have a million two million three million followers and you're very proud of your virtual network uh as a source of [snorts] right to feeling part of the whole but those replace or are replacing real emotional

illion two million three million followers and you're very proud of your virtual network uh as a source of [snorts] right to feeling part of the whole but those replace or are replacing real emotional presence and Joanna is telling us watch right those are my words now but watch because there is a new isolation in within that very large virtual network that is actually leading to depression and a sense of detachment. Right? So um if if uh we think about it um and I was maybe you can speak about it um but uh right uh from and I think you're talking when you're talking about Freud and the libido but uh in the brain um research shows that the brain's reward system activates right but they activate through real human connection more than virtual likes. So it's really important that um back to that example of being part of a community and let's not be naive about it but uh make an effort to welcome but also to belong to a larger community. What are your thoughts uh Ana? >> Oh, of course, totally. Uh and I totally agree because you know one of the problems if you if you overidentify yourself with the persona and that's one problem of the virtual world because then I have to be that persona. >> Yeah. >> All the time. Right. >> Yeah. >> All the time. and uh and then I overidentify myself with that. It's a a potential to imbalance to psychological imbalance and also to um a potential to difficulties for spiritual growth that we're talking about today. >> Because what happens that you the persona will make you rigid, right? Anything that threatens my persona will be seen as, you know, will be seen with some something >> that will make me um apart from my community. But it's totally virtual because >> actually um it depends only in what I'm showing to others, right? and not from you know the daybyday life and uh looking at each other's eyes holding hands. >> Yeah. >> Because you know here we are talking and we know each other. We have been together >> recently in a congress holding hugging

aybyday life and uh looking at each other's eyes holding hands. >> Yeah. >> Because you know here we are talking and we know each other. We have been together >> recently in a congress holding hugging and all that stuff. And so we know for instance, okay, maybe the person virtually is talking and looks so relaxed and things like that, but if you were together with the person, right, and you would hold her hand or his hand, >> then you would feel that the hand is cold and sweating >> the person. Yes. And then for instance, okay, you would understand that you have to okay, I will help her because or him because I know he's anxious and then let me change a little bit what I'm going to say. >> So that's something that we lose when we have only the virtual way to communicate. It's great. >> Yeah, >> we can talk to people from all different countries all over the globe and all the stuff. We can laugh together. We can connect because we are feeling the energy here, right Marca and everybody else that is listening to us. >> Yeah. >> But because of the tone of the voice and all of that, but we cannot touch. >> So we need to have uh you know moments that we are together with people that we can touch, we can hold each other, we can hug. Brazilians love to hug and kiss. Anyone that doesn't like, please pay attention when you come to Brazil. Oh, that's great that I'm here, but please don't hug me so much. >> No, no respect to personal space, right? You [laughter] just It's all there. >> It's all there. So, you have to say, "Oh, I'm I have a code today. I'm not going to like [laughter] Doesn't matter. this kind of light is lie is okay but I was just joking. So and just I wanted to remember before because I know we are getting to the end of our >> um just remember that um if we get apart from ourselves from the truth that is within ourselves right >> a part of the our personality that it's in the unconscious >> and that is part of spiritual and psychological growth >> to uh integrate this part So what

om the truth that is within ourselves right >> a part of the our personality that it's in the unconscious >> and that is part of spiritual and psychological growth >> to uh integrate this part So what happens that that process that Yung call individuation. >> Yeah. >> That there's nothing to do with with individualism but individuation to be the individual that we are supposed to be to be whole with everything that we are. The light and the shadow aspects that we are to love ourselves exactly as we are so that we can go on growing. And the so the individuation process can be compromised you know can have we have a potential to compromise individuation process if we get stuck in the persona you know because then we are not doing the homework that our souls came here to do that is to integrate to accept everything that we are so that we can work with ourselves. I just wanted to tell >> Mara that I found I think I found the movie. >> Yes. Beginning >> and I think because in Portuguese it was translated to the as the secret of Beethoven but it's coping Beethoven >> and it's a beautiful movie that is from 2006 and it's Ed Harris I love the actor and Diane Krueger. Yeah. >> Okay. Someone because it's the the ninth symphony. >> Yeah. It's amazing. >> Yeah. Nice. Nice. It's I can hear the the the ninth in my minds, right? Just amazing. Um I want to say something because we are at time and um and Ana mentioned something before, right? In terms of intimacy, we're all seeking that sense and solidarity, right? the the sense of belonging and to to to serving and even altruism solidarity doesn't mean full intimacy according to Joanna it just means availability kindness presence so at this moment I just want to say to everyone if you know anyone in your circle of friends uh of relationships co-workers etc who is alone who who sounds like is this person is unheard who needs a gesture of solidarity from you be available be kind be there for that person that's probably the biggest thing that you could ever

ho is alone who who sounds like is this person is unheard who needs a gesture of solidarity from you be available be kind be there for that person that's probably the biggest thing that you could ever done to anyone but with that uh an I we have to close we are at time and I just wanted to to thank everyone who's been here with us right we we talked uh about many different things today um including um family relationships that are based on solidarity and understanding right and uh and how we can practice this. So the ask the invitation to do is for us to do to this week is just offer a meaningful act of connection. Right? Maybe it is somebody who is emotionally distant or if you want to um just touch base with somebody that it feels odd that you're not in tune anymore, right? >> But uh we we're all part of society. So we all matter and uh we all need to contribute to to the larger harmony. But anyways, if this was the first time that you're listening to a program, um, psychology and spirituality weekly talks are based on the works by Joanna D'Angelus. We referenced a lot of her text today and uh this is intentional because we really want to bring her um amazing content with spiritist psychology where we juxtapose those concepts spiritual concepts and psychological concepts as well. But uh I want to thank you. Thank you na and thank um all the sponsors for our program. Maldo Camino, United States Spiritist Federation, the International Spiritist Council and um in Brazil, the Brazilian Art of the Medical Spiritist Association. And with that, I hope to see you next time. So long, everyone. Bye >> bye.