Ep 137 - Understanding the Unconscious

Hi everyone, welcome to psychology and spirituality, a bridge to better life discussion. During our weekly episodes, we explore many topics and the goal is to get to this intersection between spirituality and psychology. And absolutely as a result we want to to really capture timeless wisdom that uh you find in both fields. My name is Marcia Trojan and with me today are my wonderful friends Dr. Na Fon and Jos Corn go who will embark with me in a discussion uh about the unconscious. So before we start um Jos Ana how you doing? I'm great and I hope everybody is great too. >> Hello everyone. Hello Ana Marcia. It's great to be here. So let's go get the topic >> that absolutely. So today right today we're going to talk about the unconscious and our goal is to understand what does this mean. So Ana, as you are the expert in the room, can you give us perhaps to all of us this 101 level of what is conscious and unconscious? Can you break down a little bit for us before we can talk about it in our list? >> Okay. So well everyone in a very simple way so that we can start uh discussing the topic um the consciousness right is everything that we perceive in the world inside of us and also outside of us and uh we say that the ego is the center of consciousness right and every but of Of course to get in the consciousness we need the ego to mirror uh what we are perceiving uh inside and outside of us right so uh the ego is going to say okay I realize that I'm seeing that I'm perceiving that so uh this can be a psychic image this can be part of the consciousness okay and the Unconscious is the opposite. Everything that I can't perceive that I haven't realized that it's not in our consciousness yet. It can come to consciousness uh but it's not yet conscious. So I think this is a very simple way to understand that we have a consciousness that we have the ego consciousness the center of consciousness according to Jung that is going to say what can enter in consciousness and what is not allowed

to understand that we have a consciousness that we have the ego consciousness the center of consciousness according to Jung that is going to say what can enter in consciousness and what is not allowed and everything that is not allowed to enter in consciousness and it's not perceived by the ego right and and the consciousness uh will stay in the unconscious. >> Yeah, I I I'd love to for us to to dive into many many uh academic definition because that's how I think and I but I remember one time you mentioned um the ego we could think about it as this gatekeeper of the castle, right? Do you remember talking to me? >> I remember that. Right. And and that's the gatekeeper knows everything that goes on from his level, its level, not the entire level. But uh it's interesting that we're talking about it. But I was hoping perhaps that uh we could translate um those discussions, those definitions that uh we should be very grateful uh to to have had to have access to Carl Gustav Jung's uh discussions and definitions and his uh gift to western uh psychology. Right. But I was wondering if we could perhaps um put it into terms that touch us and uh and I don't laugh at me, but I I watched this movie long ago. So you are a movie buff as well. So let's let's see if we can find out and tell me more about how the discussion about conscious and unconscious can come from the the lens of a very silly movie, right? It's a it's a comedy. It's a fantasy, Hearts and Souls. So Heart Heart and Souls is a 1993 Ron Underwood movie. And I as I said I maybe maybe we could explore uh it within the comedy the fantasy etc but explore it because it brings us some interesting spiritual themes and while light very meaningful to us. So before we start just to make sure that you remember na and jusada the story goes as follows. In 1959, yes, long ago, uh there are four strangers, right? And they all happen to be in a bus and they all die in this bus, this accident. It was in San Francisco. And as they die, at the same

llows. In 1959, yes, long ago, uh there are four strangers, right? And they all happen to be in a bus and they all die in this bus, this accident. It was in San Francisco. And as they die, at the same time, this is the plot, a baby Thomas is born. So somehow fiction the four souls mysteriously become attached to Thomas and he they are able to show up so visible audible to Thomas but nobody else right so you all can tell that we're talking about the phenomenon that many many of us called the imaginary friends so as a child Thomas interacts with those imaginary friends, but there are things that start to happen and his parents get concerned about his behavior. And there's a scene that is great about him dancing to school in the in the boy's room and but they're all, you know, when you see context, it's just perfectly normal, but not so much when it's just the little boy in isolation. But anyways, he grows up and as a grown man, Thomas now unfortunately uh oh because sorry be because of all those issues of this boy interacting so much with the friends, the strangers that are uh interacting with him. Um they see the four of them, they decide no, we're not going to interfere with Thomas. we love him too much. So, we're going to become invisible to avoid causing emotional harm, right? And they are still attached, but they are the silent witnesses to Thomas growing up. And as he grows up, as I was saying, he becomes this oh self-centered, emotionally disconnected, and he's a businessman, I think. Um, plot twist. Plot twist here. The four imaginary friends reappear to Thomas as a grown man when they realize that they need his help. Right? That's the plot. And um why do they need Thomas' help? because they have unfinished business on earth and they cannot move on until those unfinished business are come to to solution. So Thomas, of course, he doesn't know, he doesn't remember, he's reluctant, but through their their persuasion, right, they he finally agrees and u um just a little bit of a

s are come to to solution. So Thomas, of course, he doesn't know, he doesn't remember, he's reluctant, but through their their persuasion, right, they he finally agrees and u um just a little bit of a spoiler here is that as he starts to help each one of the four souls, he start to undergo this transformation. he starts to find within him empathy, vulnerability, purpose, and uh I love that. So I there's so much that we can unpack. This is not about the movie, but I thought it could uh we could spend some time talking about how the concept of conscious and unconscious kind of can be discussed in light of this plot. And a plug for everyone, go watch the movie. It's it's available Go ahead. >> Well, um I have to make a a confession here. I love this movie. I just love it. It's a romantic comedy, right? And uh and um Thomas when when it's a he's a little boy and and in in the story in the movie you can see right from his um from I think early age like a toddler and uh talking to the souls right to his imaginary friends. And I think this is a a great Martha that you um remember this movie because it's a great example of the personal unconscious where we have um until we are you know in our childhood and even previously to that because we now know um because of medicine and and all the the ways that we can identify y problems and actually not only problems but the growth of the baby inside mother's womb so that the baby perceives sounds and mother's um voice and sounds and have a lot of information. So we can see that the ego is forming there is a consciousness forming because of the experiences that this um psych is having inside of the womb already. So since previously uh to birth but then from from the birth and and on when the child is developing the ego is also developing right and the thing that is very important is that we learn about ourselves our subjective Jung said personality not our objective because he said our objective uh personality is psych. Objective psych

ight and the thing that is very important is that we learn about ourselves our subjective Jung said personality not our objective because he said our objective uh personality is psych. Objective psych he said uh is actually what we truly are uh in the unconscious and especially deep in the unconscious not only in the personal unconscious. Then he called the objective psych is uh what and what and who we truly are. But here in consciousness with the ego we have the subject um psych that it's how we think about ourselves and how we think about ourselves is how we learn to think from you know from being a little baby from the experience with father and mother and then brothers and sisters and all everybody else that come into our lives. So we start we start realizing ha and having experiences especially in early childhood with father and mother that is the bas basic and the basis of the personality right >> so all the memories thoughts images right that we and of course together with emotions because then everything uh like has a goes to an archive memories uh thoughts, emotions, images of our experiences uh especially in early childhood with mother, father and other people important people in the child's um development. So what happens is that yung called uh we we we inside of us in the co in the personal unconscious all these experiences together with the emotions that accompany them form our complexes and the main complexes are the mother and father complex and the child within right so in this beautiful and I think it's beautiful and funny and it's really cute movie. Um so in this movie we can see what happens uh in personal uh the the personal unconscious because the child um Thomas when he was a child he felt loved not only because he had a father and mother because he had four really close friends >> and and can I can I add what I what I thought that um because there are four Right. So, it's a single mom, a failed singer, a woman who is a younger woman who is always talking

really close friends >> and and can I can I add what I what I thought that um because there are four Right. So, it's a single mom, a failed singer, a woman who is a younger woman who is always talking about the regrets about her love life and one who is a thief who's just this, you know, but from the symbolism to me and I don't know if you're going to bring that, right? It's about maternal love. It's about uh um uh the the the the singer. It's about the the idea of self-expression and purpose that woman about love. It's about I I love this about what is the cost of missed opportunities, right? And and how important what's the value of forgiveness? And finally, the thief of all things. He to me is a a great s symbolic figure about guilt and yes the power of making amends no matter how small. So I just want to because you're talking about uh what Thomas felt he felt taken care by those four souls right? Yeah, in the beginning Marson that's what I as a child that as a child. So that was his um his ego developing right and the experience of really being loved >> and having fun >> with and take and taking care um being taken care of. And you were exactly that because he had like not only a father and mother, he had the two guys that were like father to him and the two ladies that were like mother to him. But what happens uh I think it was around five or six year old in the movie >> that since uh he was talking always talking to someone that was invisible to his biological father and mother >> he was taken to a psychologist a psychiatry I can't remember but anyhow to a a mental hospital to be evaluated and unfortunately We see to this day some things like that happening. But we can talk later if you guys want. But the important thing is that the souls uh understood that he was being marked as a strange >> like in the sixth sense other beautiful movie. So like a strange uh child probably like psychotic he would be a psy a psychotic in the future it's schizophrenic or something

ing marked as a strange >> like in the sixth sense other beautiful movie. So like a strange uh child probably like psychotic he would be a psy a psychotic in the future it's schizophrenic or something like that. >> So what happens is that the souls that they loved him so much they were there since he was born. Right. >> Yeah. And so what happens that they decide as you said to get invisible. So he he wouldn't bring they wouldn't bring more problems to his life. But at this point when they say when they come to say goodbye u he was a child he couldn't understand why their friends and like they were like um fathers and mothers to him. >> Yeah. >> Were going away. And so he felt he had a trauma. He felt betrayed, right? And he shut down his emotions uh and his um feelings and towards others. uh we could say in the psychological sense that he got uh he developed a narcissistic uh you know defense of the he closed to other people the relationship and empathy and all of that. >> Yeah. So he develops kind of um I wouldn't say a narcissistic personality like in a psychiatry diagnosic but he had a narcissistic way of being and he developed that >> towards others without empathy without compassion and all of that being being very successful material uh success in his life right? >> But with lot of difficulties to relate to other people. >> But what I wanted to say is that in his personal unconscious all that that experience of not being loved enough >> as he felt right. >> Yeah. of being betrayed in his love and the care that he was being given made him uh develop this kind of defense to protect himself. >> Yeah. >> But what happens is that as you were saying deep in his unconscious as Jung says and Joanna we have the collective unconscious. We have um the archetypes, the universally recognizable patterns, patterns of behavior >> um that are fundamental in our human experience and we can understand for instance the regret, the sorrow, the experience of being you know left alone

ly recognizable patterns, patterns of behavior >> um that are fundamental in our human experience and we can understand for instance the regret, the sorrow, the experience of being you know left alone >> and feeling angry. these are archetypal experience because all of us at some point are going to feel that. >> So I think it's great the way that the movie brings an example uh of both personal and conscious. >> Yeah. that the way that the child develops and the way that the complexes are formed that they can be positive or they can be negative and it's kind of a balance between that or unbalanced we would say. Yeah. between uh good and bad experiences right in our childhood especially but also this deeper um dimension of our conscious that we call in Jung call the collective unconscious the transpersonal dimension of the psych where we find the archetypes this universal um universally recognizable patterns that all of us experiences experience. So you see the the souls also have their problems had their problems and they had to solve the problems and they need each other. They need to solve them. >> Yeah. But we could say that the the soul's problems the the characters the four characters were were in their personal uh personal unconscious because it was related to the experience the previous experience in life but and I would love Josiah to comment now because it's your area Josa uh but of course because there were also archetypes Right. The story of each one, the single mother that has to work so much and there is always word uh with their uh with her children, >> right? and feeling alone and um having all the responsibilities. And the other lady who couldn't figure out if what was more important, the love of her life or or her career. >> That was the problem. >> And the other one that was a singer but could not sing and it was his dream to sing to a great audience. So the inferiority complex and the other one who had moral issues right because he stole some stamps from

her one that was a singer but could not sing and it was his dream to sing to a great audience. So the inferiority complex and the other one who had moral issues right because he stole some stamps from a little boy. >> So he was feeling very guilty. So sada. Do you think that this kind of qu of conflict that all of all of us can undergo at some point is just from one life or what do you think what Joanna says about that? >> Yeah, it's a it's so interesting. I was loving to hear both of you talking and talking about the movie and how how much you know this uh uh brought to my mind the feeling of sometimes we go out we go in the streets and we see people like they wear I don't know pieces of wood in a chess board you know they're minding their own little square. But but when we go and dive dive deep into you know like now we are going into the the life of Thomas and this idea in the movie of of somebody else how each person is so rich there is so much behind each person and we don't see that sometimes we we are so much just looking at ourselves or our s circle of friends and we forget about the emotions and feelings of other people and one thing is uh when we are talking about Thomas and it's is so complex I was here thinking you know uh the the emotional sadness that he had to go through when all of a sudden they he lost the forefront right this would impact him and we we can see that in the movie and so dealing with the unconscious and the repressed emotion because at a certain point maybe here I'm fantasizing on top of a fantasy already but of course if you go through a trauma like that uh losing you know corporeal beings >> or corporeal beings you go through through emptiness to through sadness right and uh having to adapt to that to not having those beloved figures around you anymore. And how sometimes we we we we decided to bury deep into our cons unconscious right what we are we are feeling and feeling afraid of loving and caring again and getting disappointed. So from

u anymore. And how sometimes we we we we decided to bury deep into our cons unconscious right what we are we are feeling and feeling afraid of loving and caring again and getting disappointed. So from this the the spiritual perspective we know that in terms of the unconscious what we have in our conscious is not only related to the experiences we had in life like for instance this is very clear here he went through the loss of friends and so he decided to you know from that trauma on it it certainly shaped his character his emotion to a point that perhaps He he he put it behind in order not to suffer more from the not to deal with that. So it is the unconscious something that happened in this lifetime. But we don't live just once. We are immortal spirits. We have multiple lives and we still have much more. And of course uh it's not that once you finish your life you close like you know a book that you write you just put it in the shelf and never more talk about it. No it's part >> of who you are. So we bring in an unconscious level you know all this emotions good and bad all the talents good and bad inclinations good and bad and it's when uh we'll have to deal with that. And then in terms of the the the movie itself, we we see mostly from one aspect, right, which is the aspect of him how it wind up affecting his personality as a young man, >> right? And so I don't know you you want to comment more about the movie and what happened after after but uh >> uh before before we because just with your spiritist knowledge I I wanted to maybe just for a parenthesis here on the discussion about unconscious but maybe Josari you can also talk about some of the things that in the movie fiction Right? Uh we talk about imaginary friends. We some of us will call those our guides, right? But uh in in some cases we can even call it obsessive spirits, right? Good or bad, they are bonded to that uh that uh little boy Thomas in that case. But I just thought that maybe you can bring a

ght? But uh in in some cases we can even call it obsessive spirits, right? Good or bad, they are bonded to that uh that uh little boy Thomas in that case. But I just thought that maybe you can bring a little bit of your knowledge on uh that ability. um for us to be connected with our inner guides or to obsess obsessing spirits. What are your thoughts? >> Yeah, it's very interesting that you brought this because um you know we commonly know uh this uh uh effect as as uh with the words uh spiritual attachment. >> Yeah. Though definitely there was a spiritual attachment happening to this little he was not es schizophrenic right the movie lived it very clear had it there was nothing wrong with him there was just something that happened let's say the unexplainable possibility that he made a bond with those four souls and uh from that point on he was able to you know see them, communicate with them basically also feel the emotions uh that they were feeling because they were so basically attached together. So when you talk about spiritual attachment very quickly there can be good, bad and neutral. I would classify what was happening to him as being a neutral effect. uh there was not necessarily at least not at the beginning a purpose of uh you know harming him on the opposite and there was not necessarily a purpose of you know uh helping him and was more you know a self-help uh situation all the spirits somehow uh thought of him as being a vessel or a possibility for helping them. But in this process that would happen what we we know that often happen when we we we put ourselves in a situation of helping others. We think we are helping others but at the end of the road we see that we were helping ourselves. >> Yeah. in learning in the process in healing our souls from perhaps experiences that were there in a conscious level but similar to this what the the the the spirits are so we see this clearly so I would not not go as far as saying that there they were his protectors or

periences that were there in a conscious level but similar to this what the the the the spirits are so we see this clearly so I would not not go as far as saying that there they were his protectors or guardian angels because that is not the case but you know This spiritual attachment, new neutral one that became this bond that led to um a necessity of one helping another through this uh paternal um friendship way in this friendship way which is very possible and it's what something normally happens. we >> we just don't go away or discard our our loved ones as as possible. We will try to be close to them to help somehow. >> Yeah. So I'm going to go back to Ana because the movie is just uh brings so much for us to think about it and Ana you you beautifully discussed how the movie uh demonstrates the conscious and your conscious through that uh the upbringing and the growth of Thomas in this case the fictional character but uh I I think it's important maybe for us to if you if you can talk about the those aspects of our psyche uh when they are unresolved because we talked about in the plot unfinished business but uh I was thinking from your perspective um if we can talk about th those unresolved and I'm doing air quotes here it could be regrets guilt shame missed opportunities right um how can talk about that a little bit about this this sense of growth um in psychologically speaking beyond what's unresolved. Is there a correlation that maybe we can talk about here? Yes, I think it's um very important thing that um and also putting together what said um we are because in a in psychological terms we could also think of those souls as being part of the psych. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah, that's what Yeah. >> Yeah. They were so connected to each other, right? And to Thomas. >> Yeah. and they stayed there as souls connected to him for many many years since he was a child >> and then all through his adult life until he's a a a grownup man. >> So all the unresolved let's say um

eah. and they stayed there as souls connected to him for many many years since he was a child >> and then all through his adult life until he's a a a grownup man. >> So all the unresolved let's say um aspects of our personality that we bring righteous with us to this life. Mhm. >> So, uh it is in our personal unconscious of course because we are going to have a father and a mother and we are going to have uh certain experiences in our ch in our childhood. >> Mhm. that of course they uh they lead us let's say to uh live some experiences that are going to determine the way that we um live this life right so what Jung says and also Joanna uh and I was listening to you guys and thinking about the individuation process that we we have talked many times here but what is the ind individuation process from a psychological and spiritual uh point of view putting together everything like just say we are immortal beings living this material experience uh to evolve to develop our consciousness in a higher way let's say right uh a higher aspects of our consciousness uh so what is important is that we are not doing this alone. It's a kind of a duality because we are of course developing our individuality but at the same time we need each other because uh we need each other like a mirror also right to the way that we are um thinking about ourselves. So we need the relationship, we need um know to feel things even projection the mechanism of defense of projection that Freud thought was so you know neurotic because we are you are projecting aspects that are denied or repressed in our personal unconscious >> and you are projecting them uh onto other people or situations. So that would be for Freud um uh neurotic behavior. But for you she said okay in terms of a personal uh a personal uh individual yes you can say there is a neurotic pattern because you keep repeating that. But he said when you project you also are um kind of mirror uh looking in a mirror because through projection >> uh you are going to live uh

here is a neurotic pattern because you keep repeating that. But he said when you project you also are um kind of mirror uh looking in a mirror because through projection >> uh you are going to live uh your conflict your inner conflict in real life in real for the ego. Okay. But in the outside uh world uh so then you are going to have to realize unfortunately yet at this point through some kind of conflict some kind of suffering but then you will realize at some point living this life and not being afraid of connecting to uh with each other right having the experiences having the emotions that go with the exper these experiences. of, you know, being intimate to with people, friends and partners, uh, and family members, even sometimes arguing and being upset with. But all of these are so so important for us to realize what is inside of our inner world and what experience as Josetta said we bring with us from past experiences other lives that we should live again in a different way and try to learn better about uh ourselves and about others. And at the end, Joanna says because she has a book, a beautiful book, love, unbeatable love, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> All about love. So it's all about this force within us. >> Yeah. >> That she calls a dealropism. So a movement towards God, towards this totality and that we call God, this creator >> that uh we are part of, right? So it is a movement of evolution. So I think going back to the movie that it was a process of healing >> of those souls but also of Thomas soul soul you know of his psych because of course we can think then that he brought to this world uh issues unfinished business. It doesn't say uh in the movie but with your question Martha was I was thinking in a deeper way about the movie that of course if he had to connect to those souls there is a purpose behind it right >> yes >> so of course he maybe they were together in another life right and he brought to this >> for instance it's an archetypal fact of our psych that that we can have And we

urpose behind it right >> yes >> so of course he maybe they were together in another life right and he brought to this >> for instance it's an archetypal fact of our psych that that we can have And we have actually experiences with fear for instance >> fear of connection, fear of feeling alone, feeling of betrayal, of our love and and so on so forth. So of course we can think that um Thomas brought to this life uh an issue for instance of okay I will learn more about love about empathy correct >> about the need for connection >> so and can you help me guys or they were from past family spiritual family okay let's when we die we will stick with you and we will learn together for instance right our unfinished business. So we are >> uh we have our personal issues. >> Yeah. >> But the the individuation process and according to Joanna it's a spiritual process also. Yeah. because Jung his focus was in the psychological individuation um the way to see the individuation process even uh talking about the psych he was his main uh focus and attention was in the psychology of it but Joanna says yes the psychology uh of the psych yes you are individuating you are learning ing to balance more of your psychic uh experience and spiritual experience in through this life. But there is an individ spiritual individuation that we have to dive inside of ourselves the truth of our souls >> so that we of our emotions right so that we can evolve. >> I hope someday I can be well don't laugh at me but in my spiritual journey maybe I will be someone's guardian angel that will be an upgrade. I'm I'm crying. >> Yeah. And we have a few minutes. So, I want to punt back to Josada because this is fiction, right? This story is fiction. Even though it brings a lot for us to learn, it it's so easy to understand that. Uh but uh just can you tell us perhaps a little bit about uh number one and and uh and you already brought it right this magic feeling that there is a uh um an accident in the bus and the souls become attached doesn't

n you tell us perhaps a little bit about uh number one and and uh and you already brought it right this magic feeling that there is a uh um an accident in the bus and the souls become attached doesn't happen right maybe it is and yes you mentioned something that predated that accident that bonded those spirits but on a different note um the whole journey of Thomas supporting helping uh those souls with their unfinished business which we've seen in many many many different Hollywood movies right we've seen in Ghost we've seen in this one and many more but just can you talk a little bit about the immaturity of how perhaps we think of this idea of helping to be helped I don't know can you talk a little bit more about it >> yeah I I speak about diving deep into the topic of today understanding the unconscious so as a naive very clearly explan explained to us you know the unconscious on the uh you know medical scientific perspective and also going into the spiritual aspect uh one thing we we we should start to understand we are again an immortal spirit. We live more than one life and there's there is a lot of mystery in us that little by little we are going to be so they're going to be unsolve it solve it uh uh so we have unsolve it mysteries that are going to be solve it and and one thing that I I really take for the the from all of the what we are have been talking about here is also about calling the attention of parents, educators, you know, don't take uh the the talks the topic that children are going to bring to you uh for granted. uh like for instance in this case of Thomas he was he also winded up in an institution you know with with without and we know clearly that that was not the case but at the same time if we bring uh about another movie that talks about inside out emotions >> so very important for us to understand about our emotions and that those were things that unfortunately up to the 20th century we were not paying attention. So if the the the child would manifest a

>> so very important for us to understand about our emotions and that those were things that unfortunately up to the 20th century we were not paying attention. So if the the the child would manifest a certain emotion, a certain frustration, we would say, "Oh, this is a spoiled child." We would not pay attention to the cries of the soul, the spirit, the you know that is behind all that. And in a conscious level is manif because it is in the unconscious but it it is manifesting somehow because it's being triggered by the lifestyle by things that happen because Joanna explains this to us. Sometimes we bring something in us that whether it is from this incarnation or from a previous incarnation, it doesn't matter that much is what is is a storage back here in in us, right? And not in this physical body. It can contain all the experiences we have already lived. But in terms of the spirit, yes. So it is stored there. And now all of a sudden um a trip to the museum triggers something because you see um a painting. You see if you go to the historical national historical museum, you see an animal, you see something that is going to trigger and bring about this emotion. So I think we have to pay attention to our children. We are living in a time where we are seeing so much crisis in terms of children and adolescence and and even going to attempt suicides and perhaps sometimes even you know uh successful unfortunately and we are not paying attention to that. But apart from that, let's pay attention to us as well. And when we see in this movie, you know, unfinished business, we all have unfinished business. Uh we may take two roads. We may it may take us to die to realize what we should have have done. And now with that body, we don't have the opportunity anymore. So may use someone as they are using toas as a resource which as you said is is not uh it can happen but it's not that common but the most common way the most most common road for all of us is reincarnation. So you you'll say you

e using toas as a resource which as you said is is not uh it can happen but it's not that common but the most common way the most most common road for all of us is reincarnation. So you you'll say you know what I need to go I need to do something about it. be it you know a project that you are developing being a frustration uh next time I'm going to work work more on my vocal cord so I can sing better right >> yes yeah >> and so this is the most common way reincarnation it's a beautiful thing that we have this opportunity we come it seems like you know a clean slate is not All of that, all of what we lived before is stored here. And all of a sudden, it comes like you said in Thomas, this need to maybe I ask it to, you know, to have some experiences in order to grow this virtue and we will go through experiences like that. And uh at the end of the day h it's it's beautiful that there is all this opportunity and at the same time that there is so many mysteries we have to solve. >> I I hear you >> in this this journey to grow up and to inner transformation. >> I love it. Thank you. Uh and do you have any final thoughts before we close? We we are at time already. Uh, but I I just want to say um really good to hear from both of you, but uh Ana, any final thoughts? You're you're on mute and I >> you're on mute. >> Yes, sorry. >> That's okay. >> I was caught by my my emotions hearing you guys. So, and it came to my mind um uh uh I think it it was Jung that said archetypes are the footsteps of God within the psych and um and it's a metaphorical way right to understand that all these experiences that of course come together with difficult emotions sometimes >> are a path as USA was uh talking previously are a path that you know this life is a path uh to understand and evolution to understand God to understand love. So I think we have these footsteps within ourselves within our psych and and I think it it you know it makes me really grateful to be to have this opportunity even if

nderstand God to understand love. So I think we have these footsteps within ourselves within our psych and and I think it it you know it makes me really grateful to be to have this opportunity even if it's sometimes difficult and I know we are going through difficult experiences all around the world uh but these difficult experiences are a learning process of love because we have to develop the higher values to go through them. Patience uh tolerance, compassion and so on and you know all these experiences are divine imprints. We could say the archetypes are divine imprints. So let's be grateful and let's help each other because as Jos says it's a mystery that it's so beautiful to live this mystery, right? >> Thank you. Thank you both. I I'm I'm quite uh uh taken as well. And I just wanted to to wrap it up with with heart and souls, right? uh because um it it's very interesting when we talk about Thomas and his journey right his path uh of emotional healing and he goes from denial repression we know all of it we talked about it to integration to connection so he helped and he was helped and uh and I love it because psychologically speaking and spiritually speaking we're talking about inner transformation through love as you said and I through empathy through service. So if we can bring um those uh teachings that isn't a simple uh easy to to to watch movie right if we can bring all of this together let us uh learn that uh we we we should really um embrace ourselves holistically right our past our our present our future and As Josada called out, many children uh many teenagers are going through crisis. So if you are perhaps going through some suffering, some pain today, let's all remember we're not being punished. We're just in the path to our own transformation. If you need help, seek help. But this is a a a beautiful opportunity as Ana mentioned for us to to really grow to really transform. If this is the first time you listen their program, please note this is a weekly program, the psychology and

a a a beautiful opportunity as Ana mentioned for us to to really grow to really transform. If this is the first time you listen their program, please note this is a weekly program, the psychology and spirituality and they're based on the works by Joanna D'Angelus. We talked about many different people including Freud and Jung etc. But the the work is really found as well in the psychology series of Joanna D'Angelus and I hope that you're able to perhaps get some nuggets of understanding of spiritual and psychological concepts. I want to thank you both Jos and Ani. I really appreciate you being here with me. I also want to thank our sponsors, Manand Camino, the United States Spiritist Federation, the International Spiritist Council, and Ammy Brazil. We'll be back next week, and I hope to see you then. Bye everyone. >> Bye bye. >> Bye.