Ep 135 - Individuation: The Journey Toward Wholeness

Hi everyone, welcome to psychology and spirituality, a bridge to a better life discussion. During our weekly episodes, we explore the intersection of spirituality and psychology. And as a result, we are able to capture some very interesting and timeless nuggets of wisdom that we find in both fields. My name is Marcia Tro and I'm here with two amazing individuals that are here in this journey with with me in this podcast. Dr. Naifa and Josa Korn goat, the co-founder of this program. We are here to talk about this interesting topic. It's called individuation. A concept that was actually introduced to us by Carl Gustav and through some spiritist teachings we can better understand it. It is important that we ourselves are able to understand that the journey of individuation is not it is not a selfish individualism. We often confuse those terms, right? But rather it is a journey to discover our own and very truthful individuality. uh it is I could say even a process of integrating the conscious and unconscious parts of ourselves understand of course the what Jonah the angels brings to all of us the self capital L's s the divine within and to be able to live in harmony with ourselves with life and with others. So shall we explore the meaning of individuation and perhaps bring some psychological and spiritual uh inputs to to that uh to that definition? Um can we start by just defining it? Who would like to to perhaps talk about it? What does it mean? What did Jung mean by individuation? Should we listen to Yung? It's not mediumship. I just read read a little bit of what in Jung's words uh is the process of individuation. >> Um so I think it's very important that we have been talking here in the podcast about uh consciousness and the unconscious. Right? We have talked a lot about >> um how Jung saw the um the unconscious, the personal unconscious, the collective unconscious going really deep diving into the unconscious. So of course both of them consciousness >> and the unconscious right the conscious

the unconscious, the personal unconscious, the collective unconscious going really deep diving into the unconscious. So of course both of them consciousness >> and the unconscious right the conscious and the unconscious let's say >> are two psychic factors right they are uh parts fundamental >> psychic facts Jung says >> and of course they are going to be in conflict with each other. Oh, and remember when we talked about the bipolar structure that you want to call, right? It's like not the bipolar disorder, but that we live here in a duality. This experience in this life, it's very bipolar in this sense of the duality. So this is one of our psychically speaking duality that is very strong conscious and the unconscious. So what Jung says in his uh words okay that conscious and unconscious do not make a hole when one of them is suppressed and injured by the other because they are kind of fighting each other let's say through most of our lives right >> and it is right let me let me just stop here because to to to explain how I understand that the the this this duality this polarity we we in our society in our I would say even western thought processes we we say we are or we're not it's that that that uh um idea that we're winners or losers we're uh black or white we are whatever it's always this this polarity if we're here we cannot be here and it's very interesting when you bring to that specific specific duality uh o of um conscious and unconscious and how still today and I don't know how much longer we're going to be able to to change our frame of understanding but we fight right and I we fight with no this is my conscious I don't want to I I'm I'm pushing away uh and I'm pushing away metaphorically speaking in my as I say here um the what is not consciously aware my you know my persona versus my shadow so on so forth but go on go ahead and >> yeah and I I think um we we go back to Jung's words but be before that Mara listening to you uh since we we express in the world uh in the outer world uh

hadow so on so forth but go on go ahead and >> yeah and I I think um we we go back to Jung's words but be before that Mara listening to you uh since we we express in the world uh in the outer world uh everything that is happening in our inner world, right? >> So if we are fighting to suppress for instance um aspects of our unconscious that make the make our consciousness uh uncomfortable let's say of course we are going to express this in the outer world because we are in a mean as humanity at this point expressing all this duality. So fighting each other through different parts of uh society and in the social medias and uh you know it's kind of hard nowadays to listen to each other really listen with respect and not previously judging each other. So I was thinking and I would like to before we go back to you to ask Mhm. >> Doesara in the spiritist um knowledge we know from Joanna and Devaldo and Chico Xavier and Emmanuel some of a lot of some know a lot of information about uh what what goes on after this material life. Do you think we we we express uh right after you know we pass through the door of this life to another life? Do could we go on expressing this duality and um how that uh you know because I was remembering all Dundra Louu um the spirits that Shiko Xavier psychoraphed and everything that he observed but I understand Josara that it's a dimension very near to ours right to our d to our dimension So do you think this duality uh can be expressed when we go to this dimension right after we we pass and then um it can disturb us the the people that that stay here like in obsessive um processes for instance um what do you feel about that I was just wondering you know if we can if we don't do the task of individuation in this life that we are going to quickly go back to know better ourselves. Uh can we take all this duality after um after this life? What do you think about that? But first, hello everyone. That is >> um I I I have to to say something. You know that I always speak my mind and

h can we take all this duality after um after this life? What do you think about that? But first, hello everyone. That is >> um I I I have to to say something. You know that I always speak my mind and while you I was listening to you, I was thinking that the person that coined the phrase um ignorance is please process of individuation. Yeah, >> because uh this is you know this is the process of growing right and uh as as as much as the child that we want to grow up and when you start having to face all the responsibilities everything that comes with you aging uh you will think oh no it was so good when I was a child right so it's not I I guarantee to you ignorance is not bliss but I understand why uh someone would vent it in this way because it comes to a point that our spirit immortal spirit and this comes to what Anna was uh asking me is longing for more at the same time that I I I I want to linger and to stay cling to what is uh uh known to me what seems to be the comfort of the comfort zone. Um I I want to break free. I want to go and explore and uh and this comes with changes and this comes with discovery and this comes with discovering of the self as well and see are immortal spirits regardless if we have a physical body or not is the same. >> Uh perhaps this is even worse when we are not bound by the material ties of life. because we are have much more awareness and understanding of our position as immortal spirits of course to after you reach a certain point. So uh this uh depiction that you were mentioning in the books that was psychographed by Shico Savior, Francisco Savior from Andre Louise explaining you know life in the spirit world and how the spirits feel and uh it is actually you know the continuation of this process process and what leads us to require a new opportunity which is a new reincarnation. Listen, I understand that in order for me to grow in certain aspects, it would better to return to go through some experiences, some challenges, um some particular situation that is

new reincarnation. Listen, I understand that in order for me to grow in certain aspects, it would better to return to go through some experiences, some challenges, um some particular situation that is going to help me in this process. So I think this is the beauty of it that is a continuous uh uh you know continuing in this process that we don't there is not a break there is not you know oblivion there's >> let's yeah but let's go back to what you said right because it's it's quite interesting the you know the the idea of ignorance is bliss which is a quite old poem right from the 1700s But in in in in that sense it's this idea that uh ignorance is bliss because I don't want to like you said have the awareness of the responsibility that I get as I grow and grow here of course is psychological maturity it is spiritual maturity etc. But it's quite interesting that it also may mean that awareness awareness no longer ignorant right awareness will bring us sorrow. So I think we could probably talk about it a little bit. The the idea that it takes courage to accept all that we are, what we are aware maybe our public persona, right? that in the realm of consciousness and what we yet don't know about us or even that which we consciously or unconsciously repress. So um having that awareness takes so much courage but back to Jungara uh it's a process that will bring us lightness it will bring us freedom it will bring us uh self-love but it's not an easy process like you said you said I love that what that you brought that quote >> yes I love that too and I was remembering that Joanna says is and reminds us that uh Jesus Jesus actually says the kingdom of heaven is within you, right? And >> uh when she talks about uh individuation process going even deeper deepen deeper sorry than Yung did. I think this is very very important because she asks us to this uh to this deep and profound refle reflection about ourselves and self-conquest she says and as you said Martha it need we need courage to do

nk this is very very important because she asks us to this uh to this deep and profound refle reflection about ourselves and self-conquest she says and as you said Martha it need we need courage to do that because not always we are going to see nice things about ourselves but it's the truth and it's um and and and that's why I think it's so wonderful that Jasara uh is telling us bringing all this knowledge about uh you know the spiritist knowledge about spiritism that and the median beautiful median that we have that have um uh psychoraph this loving spirit spirits telling us that life goes on the spirit is immortal and everything that we as I said said if the kingdom of he of heaven is with within us right >> so um our self the capital S our higher self knows the path and will want to evolve >> right >> so everything that we cannot achieve in this life >> because we have our limits here we are going on right just with this uh this uh movement towards uh evolution of consciousness toward developing our inner kingdom let's say >> I I love it. Yeah. And I think um for us u love to hear from you Josetta but uh you know she's refer referencing Jesus' words through John right uh uh the my kingdom is not of this world but it's really this beautiful in my opinion of course invitation for that deeper um psychological and spiritual reflection about the nature of reality. Right. the nature of the self and the nature of what does it mean to achieve a sense of true um fulfillment which you know in in one of her books planitude which is that in itself the the the concept of achieving that sense of fulfillment is inhered to what you're saying and I think it's super interesting for us to to to to to maybe bring a little bit more what is what does she mean um by that in in the sense of what we need to do and to me uh and I'm going to say this and then pass the the mic to both of you but to me it's that uh seeking our inner silence right seeking our uh ability to to self-love and uh in self forgiveness.

nd to me uh and I'm going to say this and then pass the the mic to both of you but to me it's that uh seeking our inner silence right seeking our uh ability to to self-love and uh in self forgiveness. But what are your thoughts both of you? >> Uh I was thinking about you know >> another way of uh saying uh or referring to what Joanna D'Angelus and Jung uh were talking were talking and and and left to us in their writing as well which is achieving wisdom. >> Yes. And uh so I I I think that in a way when we are talking about this process of individuation we are talking about you know uh achieving wisdom and in the sense that it it's not related to to you know intellectualism >> but it's the the intelligence of the soul uh of the understanding of oneself self. And this is the reason why sometimes we are going to see people that are very humble, very that leads a very humble, very simple life. And uh when we talk to them, it it be more enlightening or enriching that if we will talk to a Nobel Prize person, >> you know, because uh it comes with something that is directly related to search, right? this inner search and and and uh and of course when when Joanna here talks about collecting oneself no way of us going through this process without uh engaging with the process and engaging with the process means understanding that sometimes you will say ignorance is bliss because it's going to be hard >> to bring things to the surface that maybe you prefer her to stay hidden or buried a little longer or forever. And um and and so this is why it's painful. It is painful as well because you may be in this in in this journey and not necessarily people that are related to you will understand your journey or will you know be taking the same steps in in their own lives themselves. So this also may bring a certain solitude because um because you you you may not see so much people or so many people that would be engaging in the same way in the same process but this collection of oneself doesn't mean to retire from

litude because um because you you you may not see so much people or so many people that would be engaging in the same way in the same process but this collection of oneself doesn't mean to retire from the world because this is where we learn things. It's not about, you know, hiding yourself, locking yourself at home and say, I have everything here. I don't need anyone and I I'm self-sufficient. We are not. And um it is really going into the battlefield that is necessary for us to become uh really a successful warrior. >> No, I love it. I love what you said. It is >> I love that. Yeah, it is a battle, but it's a battle within ourselves. We we have our own armors, right, Josada? We we just we're trying to protect and we we're trying to fight. So it's just this really uh chaotic if you think in terms of a visual image of us fighting with ourselves but we must we must have the courage to go to the battlefield and actually become more vulnerable become naked if you will to to to see all there is within because it's so beautiful. Um, can we can we maybe talk a little bit about >> Can I Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. Can I just go because I think uh it's >> tuned in perfectly with young words and let's go back because people said they forgot about they want to hear what you said. >> Go ahead. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. >> No, no, no. I'm just joking because us Yungians, you know, we go like round and round and it's okay. So, um we were talking about this battle and I think um just is pretty much in tune with that this battle and also Joanna of course is um expanding but um so we were talking about this battle between conscious and unconscious, right? >> Yeah. uh where Jung says uh they are not a whole. Um especially when uh one is suppressed or injured and the ego conscious uh consciousness is always trying to protect itself from unconscious um aspects of life right inner life because of all that as um you know the complex this duality persona and the shadow and other complexes. But

ness is always trying to protect itself from unconscious um aspects of life right inner life because of all that as um you know the complex this duality persona and the shadow and other complexes. But so Jung says, "If they must contend, let it at least be a fair fight." I love that. A fair fight with equal rights on both sides. Something that we seem nowadays be very difficult to do, right? So Yung says both are aspects of life. Consciousness should defend its reason and protect itself. And the chaotic life of the unconscious should be given the chance of having its its way too as much of it as we can stand. You we're talking about being brave, right? And be um have this courage to face ourselves. That evidently is the is the way human life should be like because he says that this means open conflict and open collaboration at once it's another duality because they are going to be in conflict is part of this life but at the same time a mature ego that I think we should talk also maybe people are curious about what is a mature ego Right. I I'm really interested to know. Yes. >> Yeah. So, one of the aspects it's having, you know, this um this emotional muscles, let's say to hold you know this duality that it's really difficult this inner fight. So uh between an open conflict between conscious and unconscious and open collaboration at the same time as we are doing here right because our unconscious aspects ourselves are here um trying to help all of us and of course with people that are listening to us there and it doesn't matter space and time because Jung says the psych is out of space and time it. So it doesn't matter if people are going to listen to us um in what difference of time or even in space, which country uh which part of the world they are going to be because the self here when we are talking we we are the self has uh the higher self we are talking about has this also duality because it is um it is a aspect of the psych that is pretty much um responding and acting as Joanna

we are talking we we are the self has uh the higher self we are talking about has this also duality because it is um it is a aspect of the psych that is pretty much um responding and acting as Joanna says is our immortal spirit right so um it is very individual to each one of us with its own experiences and past lives experience and all of that and wisdom and knowledge but at the same time it has a collective aspect effect, right? >> So we share all this richness, this wisdom is shared. Everything that we learn is shared because we are um aspects of the same divine consciousness, right? The creator, the creation. So of course in in a sense we are all together in this learning in this evolution. There's in this point there's no separation. But so I think Josatada said something really important here. We are in a psychological and spiritual all of us >> human beings right brothers and sisters in humanity. We are in a process of evolving and learning in this uh dimension material world three dimensional world and material world. So we are having an experience of individuation but at the same time our spirits the kingdom of heaven within us Jonah says the divine aspects of our psych right so uh we are together in this learning so for instance you said a very humble person has a wisdom that even a noble price doesn't have I think this so beautiful >> it is But at the same point, of course, we all should go to high school, to university, to college, to be, you know, to develop here our intelligence and our cognitive aspects of the the mind, all of that and have knowledge in this world. But at the same time, I'm not saying that the Nobel Prize didn't suffer to get that knowledge. But at the same time we are uh I was uh remembering Einstein for instance that had the equation of energy right when he was sleeping actually because he couldn't figure out how relate energy and mass and then he slept and he dreamed of the equation. So, of course, we're going to say, "Oh, this was in the unconscious of um of Ein

ng actually because he couldn't figure out how relate energy and mass and then he slept and he dreamed of the equation. So, of course, we're going to say, "Oh, this was in the unconscious of um of Ein and then the ego was fighting the knowledge or whatever." You could think of that and it of course could have happened. But at the same time, we know that this divine within us is in the collective. So we should be all humble you know like the doesn't matter poor or rich or whatever because we are we are not evolving alone an individuation in this sense as just said is a process of the spirit it's not only of the cycle of our soul here incarnated this is one aspect of individuation but Joanna is bringing to us the spiritual aspect of indiv individuation that just talked so beautifully about I don't know what you guys think about that >> just yes >> uh because I was thinking you know uh you know we we were saying oh the process is hard but we have to think but uh spiritually speaking in many different spiritual uh lines of thinking you know organizations we all talk about you know us being the touch or the breath of God, right? Or like uh sometimes we use the word monet like you know it's the start or of uh the moment we were created and we have this divine uh expression within ourselves. So this process of the individuation actually is a process that uh will lead us to finally be able to understand what we are and and to understand and to reach this divine connection. So uh it's extraordinary. It's not something that we should be afraid of. Uh because uh the more we go into that the more we will feel like you know getting closer and closer and expand this uh consciousness. And this is the reason why you know there is a neverending line of questions because as soon as you have one question answered there will be another there will be another and there will be another. This is what is beautiful in the world. And so just to make a relation with that, I was thinking about Michelangelo and that

ered there will be another there will be another and there will be another. This is what is beautiful in the world. And so just to make a relation with that, I was thinking about Michelangelo and that famous story that it says that um when people asked him how he was able to, you know, to do so many beautiful sculptures, uh he replied that, you know, they were already there. It was just removing the extra the the excess layers that it was not part of the whole thing. So this is what we are doing. We are in this process of you know chiseling. So it is hard. It hurts. We there are some parts that we are attached. No I I like this extra layer here but it doesn't belong with us. >> You have to be able to let it go. >> I love it. I I really like it. Yeah. >> Let it go. >> Yeah. But I really enjoy the the analogy with Michelangelos in and how he he has a whole series of sculpture called the slaves, right? Where they're all just coming out and express that so well. Uh Josara and uh and I think it's all of us, right? that that moment that it it takes courage uh to be sculpted, you know, quote unquote sculpted from the the the the that hard rock, the the the the block of marble. And and I wonder how do we do this, right? Since there is no Michelangelo to take it out from us, how do we remove those from ourselves? Right? uh in spiritist terms we can talk about the uh maybe our tendencies our um you know still uh very much uh instinctive aspects of our immortal uh spirit. But how can we do this? How can we achieve that sense of enlightenment and individuation as per Jung and Joanna D'Angelus? What can you tell us all of us including myself in the audience today? How can we do this? Tell me what should I do? And uh I would say to everyone I'm saying that to myself is even if all we do is to achieve a millimeter a quart an eighth of an inch in progress that is still progress. What what do you guys think? How can we get to the sense like the Michelangelo and remove that which is

e do is to achieve a millimeter a quart an eighth of an inch in progress that is still progress. What what do you guys think? How can we get to the sense like the Michelangelo and remove that which is just a overburden in in our lives? Well, um I was thinking that I I've read uh both in Joanna and Jung Joanna uh causes to accept life accept life, acceptance of life and the challenges of ri of life, right? because she talks only accepting life that we can develop this self-love because as Josa said it's a uh you know it's a blessing to be here to be able to be leaving this life and um respect by ourselves you know our our journey you know to really try to be conscious that of what everything that just was saying that we have this beautiful um chance and opportunity. And I remember that Joanna said that the ego and like our body uh is um is like a prize that the self uh was able to achieve for something really you know well I have like in a video game I have okay I have done my best and I I'm the winner of my journey because I have gone through life and then now I'm uh you know my prize is to live another life and like in the video game and have the chance to go further in my development and actually Jung says something quite similar because he says that in in the individuation process he says is not an intensification of consciousness. He says it is very much more for you uh you must have the consciousness of something be before it can be intensified. Remember Janna is always asking us for uh uh to to make this meditation and reflect upon ourselves and be in connection uh try to you know to listen to the inner voice the voice of the self and face our uh you know our complex and of the shadow and all these things. And Jung says uh that means experience life lived >> because this is what brings us uh uh knowledge and wisdom. And then say and he says you can only be really conscious of things which you have experienced. So individuation must be understood as life. Isn't that great?

hat brings us uh uh knowledge and wisdom. And then say and he says you can only be really conscious of things which you have experienced. So individuation must be understood as life. Isn't that great? >> It's it's quite beautiful. As a matter of fact, uh uh uh Josara, do you have anything else to to maybe add to to that idea that uh and you mentioned already, right? Let's not try to live in isolation. We need to live in this world and goes quite well with those thoughts from you. >> I I was thinking that you know following your question and how can we do it? I think the first thing we have to do it's to acknowledge that we are much more than we we see now. If you look yourself in the mirror, you can say to yourself, I'm not only that I'm so much more. So I was thinking don't let ever uh yourself don't let ever yourself be uh labeled by others in the sense that or by or even by yourself to the point of you believing you know this is how this this is how I am and I'm never going to change. We are constantly changing and uh the idea is we are constantly changing for the better. So perhaps today we will see in ourselves things personality traits that we are not happy with but it doesn't mean that I'm going to be defined by that for eternity. So yes I I'm like this today but I have a goal. I have a purpose and I have a potential above all that. And so I I think we know we just have to go through it. We just have to uh to always be optimistic to have an op optimistic view of ourselves. Don't let yourself be uh defined by by those labels and low self-esteem because this is not our destiny that you know the uh the only label that we have is perfect immortal spirits. This is something that we all going to achieve in terms of this individuation and being capable of expressing our inner divine expression. I love it and and I I would say because a lot of us and there's a lot of discussions on the topic by the way but uh we are somehow pulled to create that persona uh of super being right I'm a superman

I love it and and I I would say because a lot of us and there's a lot of discussions on the topic by the way but uh we are somehow pulled to create that persona uh of super being right I'm a superman superwoman I'm a super Marcia and and it's not it at all uh it is really about becoming um perhaps a more real authentic IC whole balanced Marcia with all of my limitations that I have today but open to what I can become. Right? I I think um we were talking previously and there's something that maybe we can still have some time to talk today before we go which is the idea um and I'm going to ask you and I to to maybe talk about it but the idea that Jung brings on imitation versus identification right and uh and it's really from that sense that I imitate the super being the super Marcia but I'm not even close to be just Marcia, right? So, can you tell us the the whole um concept uh in a few minutes of course of uh what Carl Gustav was bringing to us with this idea of what is imitation and why do we need to sometimes imitate, right? I think he wrote that in the red book. Uh we need to to do this until it becomes real. Can you explain a little bit more to to all? >> Yes. Um yes, it's a a great reflection by Jung. Um but um I think two things relate to that because he also talks about the mature ego and we were doing we were talking about having courage and you were asking how can we do all of that. Yeah. facing ourselves and kind of having to deal with this world that in our days I have so you know all this duality is like expanded through social media and all of that and um in memories dreams and reflections he autobiography uh he said that it was only be um I think he had a a heart attack and a near-death experience and all of that I think everybody knows that by now. And he says that he understood that um how important it is to affirm uh one's own destiny. You know, we were talking about living this life is the path to uh individuation and to finding the divine within us, right?

t he understood that um how important it is to affirm uh one's own destiny. You know, we were talking about living this life is the path to uh individuation and to finding the divine within us, right? >> So he said uh when we do that then we forge an ego that does not break down. And in his words, when incomprehensible things happen and a lot of incomprehensible things are kind of happening nowadays, at least to our egos, but let's uh remind ourselves as Josara told us that we are uh spirits basically, right? Immortal spirits living this experience. So it um and we have chosen to be here in this time. >> So we we all have um you know a divine mission and it starts with ourselves not with others then we can help help the collective. So to put everything together, Jung says that um we have a human beings have a faculty one faculty he says actually that um though it is of great util utility for collective purposes right so it's very okay for living society it is very pernicious for individuation that is imitation Because uh if what he says okay we have to establish roles and we have to of course the the little child will have to learn with mother and father teachers and everybody else the adults how to behave. So we the ego that is developing develops of course a persona as you were talking previously >> all of that we need to live in society. But if we get too identified with you know this u persona and this imitation of others and we we kind of lose ourselves what we truly are. that it's an inner process. It's not that I have to put in social media. Oh, I found out that I have this and that traces of personality. I just said I said no, this is an inner work. You don't have to, you know, make it public or whatever. Then uh then Jung says if you keep imitating and we are in you know in this um uh we could say being being uh pulled in this you know imitation game nowadays to celebrities to this and that. And it can be okay for for instance for some teenagers that are kind of finding out who they are in

say being being uh pulled in this you know imitation game nowadays to celebrities to this and that. And it can be okay for for instance for some teenagers that are kind of finding out who they are in terms of the ego, right? >> If the model is is good. >> So fathers and mothers pay attention, you know, to who your teenagers are, you know, are going out with and all of that. But then if they have uh because Joanna also says if they have moral values, spiritual values then of course for an ego that is developing is okay. But if we lose ourselves to the individuation, this process of indiv individuation from adult life on to really find ourselves and you know uh kind of okay I have rules I live in this society but I am also responsible for this society for the things that have to evolve in the society in all of us as human beings. Right? Then a Yung says to find out what is truly individual in ourselves profound reflection is needed. Uh and suddenly we realize how uncommonly difficult the discovery of individuality is because then you're going to have to say no. That's why going back you need a mature ego. The teenager is not going to be able to do this process. Uh you know the heart of the process because individuation is as the body growing and having knowledge from you know since you are born in this world but the really more conscious process it starts from adult life on. So you have to uh to say no to some things uh so that you can and find yourself and as Jos was saying uh find the divine within you that and the acceptance of everything that you are that you can overcome the bad aspects or the atisms as Joanna says. So and so then well then Yung and Joanna says you make a difference in the collective without this process. You were one of Joanna talks about robots, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Then you were another one in the mess you know. >> Yeah. >> I don't know if I have answered what >> No, you did. You did. We are unfortunately at time but I wanted to ask perhaps Jos if you have any final

you were another one in the mess you know. >> Yeah. >> I don't know if I have answered what >> No, you did. You did. We are unfortunately at time but I wanted to ask perhaps Jos if you have any final words before we we conclude today's talk about this this you know uh very paradoxical uh path to become an individual in a world that is ultimately bipolar right that we we are always uh working in in those polarities. What do your thoughts or any words that you want to to leave to everyone? Just >> I I I believe that tipping side we all know what is best for us >> and um I guess perhaps just try to listen more to this voice. Uh that will be telling you the the difference between you know what not what is not good and what it is righteousness and what it is you know the good path for you to to go into this journey of uh you know self-discovery and individuation. Ah thank you very very insightful and to everyone let's just all of us remind ourselves that this path of individuation it really really is not a luxury for just who are spiritually inclined right it is something that all of us are have a thirst to do. We all desire to meet our sense of uh wholeness of in integration with all the parts of ourselves. It is also and Joanna Dangley speaks to that quite well. It is a labor of a lifetime, right? It requires courage as well because we will have to confront parts of ourselves that uh perhaps we're ashamed that um we are not ready to to to accept and uh and it's it's a journey that requires humility so that we can transcend this uh this ego that is there as a mechanism and I know u Anna you mentioned the mature ego right I don't know that we had enough time. Maybe we can come back to to that topic at a different time. But uh we we need to have the humility as well to transcend this ego and really love all of us. Love ourselves with all that is. So, uh, Josa mentioned and I just going to, um, re re verbalize that it's not ever about escaping the world, right? But actually

nd this ego and really love all of us. Love ourselves with all that is. So, uh, Josa mentioned and I just going to, um, re re verbalize that it's not ever about escaping the world, right? But actually engaging in the world in perhaps a new transformed way where we are here and uh our presence in this world is one that brings clarity, peace, healing, right? So that all of us can walk this path imperfectly as it may be but persistently. We have just an entire uh should we say eternity to do that, right? And we will find ourselves and we'll heal ourselves. And I part today with a couple of questions for all of us to to think what masks do we still wear today that we are aware that we wear, right? What parts of our own shadow are longing to be acknowledged and even healed? And um another and final question is what do you think it would feel like to reach that sense of fulfillment of planitude of individuation? Because this journey begins with just a little single but honest vulnerable step toward oneselves. Thank you everyone for being here. I want to say thank you and great discussion today. I also uh want to thank our sponsors, Monand Came, the United States Spiritist uh Federation, the International Spiritist Council, and Ammy Brazil. We'll be back again next week for yet another conversation. So, thank you and see you next time. Bye everyone. Bye.