Ep 130 - The Gift of Aging: Wisdom, Freedom, and Growing Older - pt 1

Hi everyone, welcome to the psychology and spirituality a bridge to a better life discussion. During our weekly episodes, we explore the intersection of spirituality and psychology and as a result capture timeless wisdom contained in both fields. I would like to welcome all of you who join today to this space where we we bring inner truth in daily life, right? Our our daytoday life and how we feel. I'm your host Marcia Trojan and with me are two incredible voices Dr. Naifon, a physician, spiritual scholar and Josara Corngoat, spirit speaker, author and our podcast co-host. They join me here today and together we will dive into this topic that to me specifically is very significant, right? It's a topic that touches everyone of us, the fear of aging. And um I wanted just to say hello everyone before we keep on our discussion today. Hi Josara. Hi Ana. >> Hi. Hello everyone. It's good to be here with you again. >> Hi. Hello everyone. It's great to be here with you again. >> Very good. So good to have you. So the question for us is perhaps is old age something to fear or to celebrate right so I I think it's important for all of us here today to uncover perhaps how aging rather than marking this notion of ending of something but it's rather a spiritual crescendo Right? It's this beautiful perhaps invitation to wisdom, reflection, self-discovery, and uh it it's really important that we think about uh or rethink or repurpose our ideas of growing older or uh in in most of us caring for someone who is to instead think about it as a perspective to awaken our spirit. So just you know old age is often often misunderstood. It is thought as decline suffering, right? And I do believe that spiritually and psychologically speaking, they represent something totally different, right? That they represent wisdom, fulfillment, and often the idea of achieving peace. yet fear of aging because if you think about it largely stemming from a materialistic view and even some cultural societal

at they represent wisdom, fulfillment, and often the idea of achieving peace. yet fear of aging because if you think about it largely stemming from a materialistic view and even some cultural societal misconceptions associate aging with you're useless, right? You're frail, you're ill, you're losing things and eventually loss. So I'd love for us to to get together because um Joanna D'Angelus reframes reintroduces this idea of old age indeed as the opportunity for reflection for growth and for contribution. So I just wanted to know if uh perhaps we can talk a little bit about this myth of decline, right? Uh what are the different dimensions to that? So maybe we can start with you. Can you talk about uh from your perspective what do you think about that? What are the spiritual perspectives that perhaps uh uh brought to us maybe Alan Cardak or Joanna D'Angelus on that uh myth of decline. >> So hello again. Hi Mercia. It's been a while. I'm so happy that we are here together again. But I think that the best way to demitify a myth is to bring facts. >> Yeah. >> And uh bringing facts, meaning bringing, you know, knowledge of things that we have that can prove us wrong. And there's no better way of doing that than mentioning our dear um mentor to us all dear Franco. Um he died he passed at the age of 98 and up to the last moment when he still could a few months back he would be completely you know dedicated to work and to serveing uh humankind and um and I think I mean uh I um I will not I think it was William James that once said that to prove that you can find a a white crown or a black crown, sorry, I don't remember quite well, you just have to find one, right? So to to say that they do exist. So maybe many of us will say, "Oh, he was an exception." He was not. There are so many other names that we could add to this list and so many others that we do not know. And uh sometimes people that are very close to us and in family relationships that get to old age and we see how much they can be participating.

dd to this list and so many others that we do not know. And uh sometimes people that are very close to us and in family relationships that get to old age and we see how much they can be participating. So we are always very fast in labeling people and circumstances and ages. So the same way that we, you know, we say the terrible tooth or, you know, a teenage face or, you know, now you're 21 above is when you're going to be doing a lot of mess in your life. So we we keep on labeling uh people according to circumstances and age. And we we completely disconider the fact that the spirit is ageless. And spiritually speaking, we don't know how old we are. >> Yeah. And that's why we will see so many contradictions when we are talking about weaknesses and and frailty and character deprivation because it has nothing to do with the phase or age that you are but with what you are spiritually speaking. Having said that, of course, Juan Dangelus presents a lot of reasons why we can see patterns in the behaviors of those um you know the the changes of age and we as women here we can we can talk about that you know hormones and everything and so the the the changes in hormones how it changes us and and all of that and so that is going to be taking into consideration but you know those biological topics and etc. I'll leave to Dr. for any right to talk about. But I but I mean just to start our conversation I think you know I I wanted to to remember the life of this great man and to to tell us that he he is the white crow. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> The white crow right that uh William James talked about which one we don't need more than one to prove that exist. >> Yeah. And uh Jonah also talks a lot about the the idea the idea that I'd love for Ana to explain further from a psychological or even scientific uh perspective but uh she often talks about the the idea that inner peace and wisdom really mostly blossom in later years. Right? And it's all the fact of our ego stops identifying itself with

entific uh perspective but uh she often talks about the the idea that inner peace and wisdom really mostly blossom in later years. Right? And it's all the fact of our ego stops identifying itself with appearance, social roles etc. But naive what are your thoughts? How can we demythify this this idea of aging as a decline? >> Just one second please. I found >> Yeah. by William James is is in order to disprove the assertion that all crowns are one white white crown is sufficient. >> Yeah. Yeah. So not all are black but just one proves the that it's not the case. Very good. Thank you. Thank you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And this is a a very well first of all hi everyone. It's great to be back again. uh and um that's uh we use in um philosophy of science jew uh this concept will James there's a a philosopher of science copper that he also talks about this and um we use for instance to when we research anomalous phenomena that we call medianship for instance for science is one of the anomalous phenomena like neardeath experiences is phenomenas that are uh not common but they are frequent and they have to be studied scientifically and nowadays we have uh ways to do that. So we say that for people they say oh but that's so uncommon for instance. Uh well and it's not uncommon but it's like the the white crown you know and um >> science has to change if you see it doesn't matter all the principles that you try to explain that all crowds are black right? >> Yeah. Yeah. But if there is one as saying then uh you have to change the whole of science because uh you have to understand rationally the facts of nature and we are part of nature. >> So being saying that that we are okay talking about aging right and the psych is also part of nature. So we are part of nature. >> Yeah. And um I wanted to bring something because when Josada talked about Jivaldo that we all uh were in a certain way he was 98 right and uh we thought that he was immortal in a sense >> and of course he is immortal. We are all

ng something because when Josada talked about Jivaldo that we all uh were in a certain way he was 98 right and uh we thought that he was immortal in a sense >> and of course he is immortal. We are all in portals in spiritually speaking >> but he was so alive >> so full of knowledge and wisdom that it's kind of different wisdom from knowledge right >> but uh and you could when we were sitting by him and talking to him and Jos has done this many many times more than I did only in congress or things like that that I could talk to him personally You could feel um something that it's beautiful in aging that is all the experience of the person >> all the knowledge from the the experiences in this lifetime uh turning into wisdom >> right of course he has had a um life full of connect interconnections between realms right because he was such a medium and he could Um, of course we know by his life and his experience uh and everything that he told about uh about that that um sometimes it would be difficult for him especially when he was young to discern what was material and what was immaterial. what was a person or a spirit because he was seen uh you know in a in out of space and time and out of only the material realms but all of us can do that in a sense as Jesus said everything that I do you can do and even more. >> Yeah. >> Right. Because we are spirits evolving. So to have in this lifetime that uh I think human beings because of science that we were talking about because of the development of our consciousness we have not had as humanity uh the experience of aging as much as we are doing nowadays because all the medicine and learning that we need to exercise that we need to take care of the body. So this generation that I think we are in a generation that it's in the middle here >> we girls right uh but people more or less from our our generation um this is the generation that has started paying attention in health >> in physical health in mental health right and this changes everything in

ght uh but people more or less from our our generation um this is the generation that has started paying attention in health >> in physical health in mental health right and this changes everything in terms of aging physically because we are going to be healthier, we are going to live longer and all all this stuff. So uh I was thinking that when Jung um had that wonderful Jung had great of course and very wise quotes and phrase but he said that he never uh in his experience he never um could and something more or less like like this he said uh that in his experience he never saw a patient of his um is is uh get out of um neurotic pattern, right? And get better from a psychonoris. That's the way he called >> uh after middle after middle age. But he said after 35 years old that was considered in young time middle age. >> Yes. uh without spiritual um knowledge and you know psychically developing a spiritual knowledge and way of living spiritually but I remember this because he said of course he was talking about middle age and he said 35 years old. So of course then you can understand that when Yung said that it was last century, more or less in the middle of last century, people would live until 60. >> Yeah. >> More or less 60 70. Wow. It was something. And then we have a lot of people all over the globe living like devalued to 90 and much more 98 and all. So it just um there are two things that I would like to talk to you about that aging. Just consider that biologically >> I was listening to another podcast with a medical person also talking and I would love to see your opinion Marcia and Jos for one one question that someone made him. But first of all, >> this guy just remember then I I went back to medical school. Oh yes, that's it. Because our body isn't life isn't isn't it wonderful that from one cell, one single cell developed and it multiplies. This cells multiply when when we have the the formation of the body, right? when when it is fertilized the egg and all of

it wonderful that from one cell, one single cell developed and it multiplies. This cells multiply when when we have the the formation of the body, right? when when it is fertilized the egg and all of that. >> So it multi it divides itself and multiplies to around 30 to 40 trillion cells. Our bodies are constituted of 30 to 40 more or less trillion cells depending on the size, gender and all of that. Then something that it's because people more they don't think much about that but all these cells they specialize in different organs. >> Yeah. And we have like 200 types of uh different cells in our body very very specialized and they know exactly what they are supposed to do exactly where does this knowledge come from. So and also if we are so afraid of aging even biologically and uh Joanna says because well people are afraid of dying actually as if you go grow old right you are going to be closer to death but we can die any any time in life cycle she says right so why are we al always so afraid and if you only consider yourselves that have such intelligence intelligence and that science doesn't explain you know this type of of intelligence and you have to connect spirituality to science the way that science it is but it's changing >> to understand that we owe too much or a lot to creation right to nature to the creation as the way that uh people want to call God or the creator. It doesn't matter because it is such wisdom that is inside of ourselves inside inside of our bodies. And just remember there are billions of cells that die every day in our bodies and they are substitute for other ones. >> Every day this is happening daily it's happening. So why are we so afraid of our of the death? because parts of us are dying every day and and if we understand biology they are also being um substitute by new ones. So we are always dying and in and the death and rebirth let's say of our own biology and psychologically if um the the time of one lifetime is Josara was talking about that is so

bstitute by new ones. So we are always dying and in and the death and rebirth let's say of our own biology and psychologically if um the the time of one lifetime is Josara was talking about that is so short in a sense comparing the immortality of the spirit. We don't know our spiritual age as Jos was saying. So it you know there's so many ways that we can we could think about all of this but I think they converge to uh the same point and that that's what I the the question that I want to ask you guys >> uh that this this inter this person that was interviewing this uh colleague this medical uh doctor he said why do you think we age and of course it was a kind of a young man, a young medical that was obstitrician. He was >> Yeah. >> So, and he was talking about the wonder of the body of, you know, of uh life growing inside a woman's womb. It was beautiful the the way that he saw but he talked about that. But then he thought anything uh he thought about the question why do you think we we age and and then if it's going to get get us closer to to death >> I can I can I take a stab at this because love to hear just speak of it and I love the question by the way um if if we think now uh as put it Right? We we are immortal spirits. Therefore, there is no death. Only the death of the physical body doing this current existence in the next in the next. But there's no death uh because we continue to live. So reincarnation really reframes the idea of aging altogether. Right Josara? It it is really uh aging is a platform for continuity versus the platform for ending. So if that is the case then the fear of aging is is dissipated. Death uh fear of dying is dissipated because it's not the end. And this is just a phase that our spirit must go through in its evolution. This path for evolution. So when we think about it, this is my way of thinking Josada and and maybe you can bring additional thoughts or or completely correct me. But uh if you think in terms of a spiritual uh view of that concept is since

nk about it, this is my way of thinking Josada and and maybe you can bring additional thoughts or or completely correct me. But uh if you think in terms of a spiritual uh view of that concept is since reincarnation is an opportunity for our uh immortal soul, right? to return to a mortal experience and uh progress evolve by addressing learnings that still has to go through by correcting say errors by expanding consciousness which is a a topic that is ever present in Joanna D'Angelo's work right we can also maybe think that aging is that preparation for our liberation from that time of learning. Right? So by aging we are perhaps softening our ties to this material life to our personality to our even our egoic constructs so that then we can transition back to our real life. Does this make sense to everyone? >> Yes. >> Go ahead. >> Smart to say. >> Yeah. >> And uh and I have proposed a question, you know, from this colleague. >> I was no pain, no gain. >> That's good. >> Yeah. >> You're not going to age. You're not going even to leave the womb, right? >> How can it be? So, it's part of life. It's part of you know the pain for us to gain from a totally spiritual perspective the way the spirits tell us uh it is not difficult to die it's difficult to be born but I don't think we should be getting there digging too deep into the spiritual perspective because I know many people that will be listening to us uh perhaps are are new to this concept but Let's just think about uh what we are talking about here. It's part of the experience of life and um I I I keep on telling you know younger people that uh you know I wish people could come to me when I were in my 20s and would say this is the best time of your life, the best decade of your life or and then when I was in my 30s and my 40s and my 60s 50s and 60s now you know um because um we keep on longing for, you know, what we don't have it anymore and we forget to leave what you we have and to experience and to find joy in the exactly the the occurrences, the

you know um because um we keep on longing for, you know, what we don't have it anymore and we forget to leave what you we have and to experience and to find joy in the exactly the the occurrences, the events that are happening to us now. >> And so now I know that when I go I'll go to the next decade, I will look back and say, "Oh my god, the last decade was okay." And here I was again complaining, not knowing, not learning. So whatever the cage you are, enjoy it because this is it. This is what you're living. And I think that one of the things that can be really painful in us getting closer to our passing because as it was said here, you know, um we don't know. It's like a Russian roulette, right? You don't know if you're going to die in your, you know, young age, 20s, 30, 70, 80, 90 or 100. Uh, you know, we don't know. We just don't know. It may happen to us at any time. And as one of the angels explained very very beautifully here, >> it has nothing to do just with the decay of the body. There are accidents, there are illnesses, there are so many things that can happen to us and put us in this frail stage that can lead to our our death. So, uh, but I think that the more we approach what it's supposedly to be, you know, very close to the end of your life because uh, like you were saying before, you know, people have been waiting for Devaldo to die for at least a decade, right? >> Yeah. he was hanging in there and I wish he could hang it longer but you know that was not the case and his spirit is free but you see um I think it's us looking back and um looking at our regret this is I think what makes us fear >> death and fear that we are not going to be able to make amends >> uh for the the regret that we carry and uh we are wrong because we we will have still time in this life. So for all those parents and children that do not speak to each other for you know many years you still have chance to to take a different path. You still have chance to take care of each other. And it's not

all those parents and children that do not speak to each other for you know many years you still have chance to to take a different path. You still have chance to take care of each other. And it's not because you we are at a certain point in our lives that we cannot you know go back and really uh putting re-evaluate things and see what is going to be more difficult to us. So we see that a lot of the concerns of getting old comes from emotional issues right how unresolve it they are. emotional in the sense that uh I could have done better. I could I wanted to to be happier and because I didn't have a certain professional stand I couldn't be or you know it can be different reasons in terms of emotions not only family but I think this is what really weighs on us and may uh justify some of the erratic behaviors because then we think um I will never ever will be able to to change that and this is where we are wrong. You can change it now or you can change it another life because this is not the end my friend. >> I love it. Yeah. Any any additional thoughts? Uh >> yeah, I think you um well I think you got it. Um the this colleague said um he was not a spiritist, right? But he taught and thought about and he said um and he didn't even I I think had exactly the concept of the spirit us as immortal spirits. Of course I think he uh from what I understood uh from the interview he was thinking that we are much more than we are we think we are okay than the ego and this and that. But he didn't have the concept at least he didn't talk about the psychological concepts and this um and this um way that we are thinking that Joanna uh invites us to think of us in terms of um the depth psychology and the spiritist psychology. us being uh spirits, not only an ego, right? But having higher self >> uh the self that uh Yung uh said calls. >> But uh he said that he stopped and said I think we uh grow old because we want to grow old. We want at certain point that this life uh we know or we want uh at this at certain

h Yung uh said calls. >> But uh he said that he stopped and said I think we uh grow old because we want to grow old. We want at certain point that this life uh we know or we want uh at this at certain point to end this life not he was not talking about you know someone that wants on purpose to end this life. So you you could see that he kind of intuitive intuitively he had the concept that we have a higher self that we are not only the ego striving to do right or uh with these struggles of this life and I thought it was so uh you know so creative his answer for a person that doesn't have uh at least it it seemed to me that he didn't have all this concept set of the spiritism and andity in a way that we evolvedly and all that. So I thought it was well that's very intuitive of him because in the spirit as Jos was saying as a spirits we know that this is a even if the ego forgets >> and the ego is very much connected to the body and to the material life of course has to adapt to this life >> but higher self knows that we are here for some for some time right and even what was saying that it totally agrees that um if we are too much too much in in the ego you know too much identify with the ego thinking that you are only this personality you're of course we all have sorrows for some you know some struggles or some conflict that we have had with people that we love or some or some guilt because of whatever ever conflict that we don't we think we haven't solved um you know in a well enough >> but if we have time enough if we grow old time for that wisdom that we were talking Devalda as an example to develop within us in this lifetime in this personality then what Susada said it will come naturally for all of us because we have time even if um even if it's in the end of life your last time you know you are in palative care and you have one week but we know seeing this kind of patients that what they want more is not more life is the opportunity to talk to some some relative that they have uh you know that

palative care and you have one week but we know seeing this kind of patients that what they want more is not more life is the opportunity to talk to some some relative that they have uh you know that they haven't talked for many years because they had kind of a fight or the opportunity to say that they love someone that they couldn't do. So that's what is really important to the spirit. And I just wanted to to tell you the concept of metaninoia >> and I think in English is the same metaninoia >> that is um is the spiritual um development let's say awakening right uh and it happens with all of us and happens to all of us uh especially it's like a spiritual transformation we could say that And it it is related related to this wisdom to this the time of leaving and having the experiences right. And usually it starts uh in middle age because when before that the ego is trying to adapt to this life to see which career it it will take if it's going to get married have kids or not what's going on with my life my friends. So that first part of life it's all connected usually of course the self is always there the higher self but it's connected to the ego it to the development of the ego so that we can have maturity autonomy and all of that but especially after middle age in psychological terms >> we have this spiritual transformation and I think this and I would love to hear you about that and I think the my feeling is that a lot of people are in this what we could call spiritual awakening. >> Yeah. >> They are interested um see our podcast a lot of people are listening to it. So there are a lot of people talking about spiritual issues from different points of view about psychology. Right? So we could say that collective in the collective unconscious we have this information that we are in an age of a a very uh quick transformation of our consciousness and also development of our consciousness. So I think uh metaninoia to be able to leave this uh this stage of life of getting old of aging it's something that

quick transformation of our consciousness and also development of our consciousness. So I think uh metaninoia to be able to leave this uh this stage of life of getting old of aging it's something that have an opportunity for the first time in humanity >> and I think it's such a privilege you know such a >> I love I I love that you brought the concept metaninoa right and I think Carl Jung explores that a lot right >> and And I think it's it's quite interesting because perhaps uh that idea of this deep insight or awakening not insight but really spiritual psychological even philosophical awakening to what life is at some point. Um maybe we can do a parallel to what St. Augustine talked about right so long ago which is that idea of what has my life been maybe a life of say excesses or right or uh truly materialistic life to the moment that hey I need to to to now get a fork in the road and start a new direction so that I can live deeply. and authentically as much as possible. That's what comes to my mind. What are your thoughts Jos? >> Um actually I was thinking about >> because you know when we talk here there are so many >> uh thoughts that came to our comes to our minds and >> the subjects are so uh rich right and you will never tire to talk about and so many experiences. And so I was thinking about I I forgot what is the the the third one they they they say that you for you to mark your presence in the world, you should plant a tree, write a book, and what else? >> Have a child. Have a child. >> You know, the third one can be questionable about the the the first few ones. uh you know they never say that you have to you know to write a book at a certain age or to plant a tree. So you can do that when you're 10 or you know if you are a prodig or or 15 20 or you can do that when you are 50 or 60. So uh I think taking that into consideration uh the important thing is that you you know um you understand your reason here and you leave something behind >> and so I was thinking about Alan Cardc

60. So uh I think taking that into consideration uh the important thing is that you you know um you understand your reason here and you leave something behind >> and so I was thinking about Alan Cardc for instance the codifier of spiritism you know he wrote many books but the one that you know really is going to be changing and is changing uh humankind is actually the spirus book, right, that he put into place when he was uh over 50 years old. >> And um I was remember about John Wilco. John, oh my god, I forgot the um the precursor of Martin Luther King when he he's going to come to me. the the first one that translated the Bible into English and in the English uh language. he was professor and he became uh persecuted because he was bringing new ideas to the the the the students at the time and uh and with this persecution he had to be exiled and um and um then he thought my life is over I'm no longer professor I can no longer do this and that and the most important accomplish of accomplish ment of his life came exactly after all that happened when he was old when he put together a team to you know to translate the uh John Wickliffe exactly John Wickliffe right when uh he translated the the the Bible and he he a theologian and a reformer so it's uh I mean it it's so amazing and I I think it's time for us in our society uh and especially like you mentioned before and I because we are being more careful with this temple that we have that is our physical body and and this is not just for shows right I mean many people I know that we will that do that in order to prolong beauty and you know attractiveness but we are talking about health here being healthy >> and any of us actually are doing this transition regardless of your age because you we are realizing that there are healthier ways of living of nourishing yourself and um just thinking about that I I I felt like eating popcorn what we are talking about right I said oh what about my popcorn anyway so yeah so little by little you know baby steps

ourishing yourself and um just thinking about that I I I felt like eating popcorn what we are talking about right I said oh what about my popcorn anyway so yeah so little by little you know baby steps we got there >> and u and yes and So I think you know looking at all that and all the perspective and everything that we can bring into the table uh being older and having had more experience more understanding and this is where I think we have to stop you know with this idea that the youth cannot bring anything because they are too young and the old cannot bring anything because they are too old. So if we consider eight years of life, you are saying that you have perhaps 25 good years you know you you will be in your prime maybe from 40 to 65 or for 35 to 60 and I mean we are discarding all the rest and all the rest is really what matters and where we are growing in one sense the first stage of our lives we are growing materially speaking Because this is when we are really looking for material accomplishments and even you know the growth of our physical body. But when when you you we come to you know the third stage of life this is where we have the opportunity of growing spiritually speaking. So the more you approach material retirement, the closer you are to a spiritual freedom, to a spiritual knowledgement, knowledge and understanding of life, to have a time for yourselves, to access everything, to you know to uh to make up, you know, for the things that we you couldn't do before. And this can be, you know, charitable work. This can be being closer to her family. This can be, you know, writing this book and planting this tree. And so I I I think that we have to explore every possibility we have and up to the last breath. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. I just am uh speechless because I looked at the clock. We're about to get uh to the end of our time together and I just uh uh wanted to maybe bring some some myths and I by myth is our culture construct as you mentioned

less because I looked at the clock. We're about to get uh to the end of our time together and I just uh uh wanted to maybe bring some some myths and I by myth is our culture construct as you mentioned before Jos but uh when we reframe them as Jonathan the angel brings to us in the idea this discussion about uh fear of getting old right and the myth may be oh mercy idea, you're going to become useless. And you just said, "No, that's when I have time as my m I'm at an age to reach material retirement. I have time maybe to teach. I have time to reflect and go into my inner, you know, inner discovery. If I have not had the time to intentionally do so, I have time to serve." um for some they say well cognitively speaking I am losing my memory is not the same I can't learn anymore and we could reframe it as uh the fact that there is a lifelong neuroplasticity in addition to those spiritual insights that you get the older you are right and and I and I think finally as you mentioned when you talked about the it's a it's a popular proverb or a cliche, right? The three things for your legacy, the book, the tree, and the the child or the children. Uh the idea that uh perhaps aging means that you're reaching a point where you're no longer valued or valuable and and the reframing is exactly that. Uh yes uh we we can bring value by becoming that bridge to memories to love and even to those legacies that were we're placed in here. But before we close I just wanted to ask both of you if you have any final remarks before we close our topic today. And I you've been quiet for a little bit. Are there any any thoughts that you can bring to us? here with um with the teachings of Joanna >> that it is our purpose also and I think she always she's always in the in be behind her texts always trying to help us um to understand how it is it is so precious to have this lifetime here and Now, as just said, um if it is, you know, uh if I'm going to leave my tree here, plant a tree, if I'm going to

ng to help us um to understand how it is it is so precious to have this lifetime here and Now, as just said, um if it is, you know, uh if I'm going to leave my tree here, plant a tree, if I'm going to write something, if I'm going to use my old age >> to you to be talking with friends in a podcast, whoever is going to be listening, >> uh but exchanging ideas, right, thoughts. So this is such a beautiful opportunity that we shouldn't miss it and it's you know it's a it's a blessing. And I just want to finish with one of Joanna's um sentence about aging and about uh life here that she says a physical life has an extraordinary meaning which is that of inner enrichment preparation for immortality conquest of higher levels of thought and feeling towards planitude. Mhm. >> So we have purpose in this life. >> Yeah. >> And our higher self knows that as Joanna is you know uh trying to uh make us help us to remember. And so if of course we are not going to be able probably to achieve everything that we have planned spiritually before coming here. But if we can you know just have this idea that uh we are here with such beautiful opportunity to be um you know the best that we can be that we are able to be and to learn and experience as much as possible uh helping ourselves to grow and change. Then of course the collective we are going to uh need to to make the the collective unconscious richer with all these experiences and all the wisdom that we can bring to the collective. >> I think it would be >> beautiful. No, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. It's it's truly beautiful. Jos, do you want to uh bring any final thoughts? I was just thinking that the outer garment doesn't uh doesn't represent you who you are. >> Yeah. So like I we said before the physical our physical appearance whether you are in your teenager years adulthood or um old age I mean your spirit is just is and uh we are at the stage that we are you know closer to being that curious child that's why I think it's very hard for you to to get

nager years adulthood or um old age I mean your spirit is just is and uh we are at the stage that we are you know closer to being that curious child that's why I think it's very hard for you to to get old because you your physical body do not represent your spirit, the the eagerness, the curiosity, you know, the inquisitive mind that you still have and and and to be taken for granted just because of numbers. It's really sad. So, we should not limit ourselves. And if the world is not prepared for that yet, you can you can be prepared. And so prepare yourself for old age and do not care that much about those numbers because they do not represent that much. >> I love it. I love it. Let's uh let's be bold. Let's be brave even if the world is not. Um I remember the title of a book by the tennis player, famous tennis player Billy Jean King and the title was pressure is a privilege. Right. And it it it stayed with me. I have the book and uh as in like what I I live a life of stress. Why are you saying pressure is a privilege? But anyways, what I would like to bring to us as we close is that we explore the idea that old age indeed is not punishment. It is a privilege. It is I I would say oh the time when our souls in this incarnation in this physical body with this series of uh circumstances that define our time on earth that's when it shines and it shines brightest right when um we have uh the possibility to access our wisdom and it is indeed our greatest talent, our greatest gift to us and to the world. So I say let's all redefine what it means to all of us to grow old. And uh I have to interfere because I have I have to tell the the audience >> that talking from experience because you have a father that is overundred years old, right? So you know what you're talking about. So you know what it is, you know, to um to be able to to have and and understand his mind and all of that. So you're talking from experience >> and and I have to say I wasn't going to say, but I have to say since you brought

you know, to um to be able to to have and and understand his mind and all of that. So you're talking from experience >> and and I have to say I wasn't going to say, but I have to say since you brought it up, Jos, that when I turned 50, I grasped with the idea of aging in a very difficult manner. So I was turning 50 and I turned 50 at the time that he turned 90. So over a decade ago and uh I remember quite frankly when I just came to him and I was like, "Oh dad, can you tell me anything?" And he said, "Oh, what I would give to be 70 again, not 50, 70." So it it really changed my own you know preoccupation about becoming 50 whatever uh genetically speaking I probably will be not dead in the next few years except for uh accidents etc but let's welcome that so thank you thank you for bringing that uh that thought about my dad my dear dad and and let us really embrace it right um I want to say thank you both for being here and for such a a positive and quite entertaining uh discussion on aging or the fear that most of us have. And for all of you who chose to spend time with us today, if this is the first time that you listen to our program, please note that the psychology and spirituality u talks are weekly and as we mentioned many times they are based on the works by Joanna D'Angelus. I want to thank you. Thank you Ana. Thank you Jada. Thank your sponsors, Manel Camino, the International Spiritist Federation. I'm sorry, the I I'm I'm completely crazy here. The United States Spirits Federation and the International Spiritist Council and Ammy Brazil, which is the Brazilian arm of the Medical Spiritist Association. I hope all of you are well. Thank you so much and see you next time. Bye. Bye.