Ep 69 - Living in Fear

hi everyone welcome to the psychology and spirituality a bridge to a better life discussion I'm your host Marcia trano and with me is my good friend Peter Hayes who comes back with us in our program and just to introduce briefly introduce him uh Peter is a president of spiritist group love and light in Newark New Jersey it is so so good to have you back with us Peter and for those of you who are joining us now please note that this is a uh podcast like program and in this program the psychology and spiritual weekly talks we are focusing on the works by Joanna deangeles so that we're able to equip all of us you and me and Peter toward a safe space to perhaps confront compare correlate and most importantly expand spirituality Concepts from the psychological lens and uh be able to perhaps bring insights actionable tips and even some reworld advice to help all of us lead a better life today's episode is brought to you by our friends at spiritist group love and light and to know more about that organization please visit www.l andlight nj.org and our program is sponsored by Amy Brazil by the TV man C by the international Spirits Council and the United States spirs Federation thank you all of you um sponsor organizations for one more episode that we come together but for you that um has uh come to this place to to listen to us and I appreciate you please make sure you hit subscribe if you haven't already done so and if you'd like to check more information about this topic please do check us out at spiritist us finally if you have any questions any feedback any critique anything that uh you you would like to share with us do write it down in the chat window and your questions or even topics will be perhaps aired at a later episode but Peter back to you Peter we are here today to discuss the idea that we all are living in fear and uh at the same time that I say that it's important for us to to stop a moment to pause a moment because fear is one of the four basic human emotions the other emotions

at we all are living in fear and uh at the same time that I say that it's important for us to to stop a moment to pause a moment because fear is one of the four basic human emotions the other emotions or the four of them are joy in a positive manner in our society we consider that to be very positive emotion but it also includes sadness anger inter feere right and I I love maybe Peter to say those are the the we used to say fight or flight right but it really fight or uh flight or fight or freeze right so when you fight is really motivated by your anger emotion the flight is that fear right that you you you need to to to be able to to get the adrenaline pumping into you so you can get out in fear and the third one which is freeze the three FS is really more like when we are so compelled by sadness that we somehow right we we freeze we are unresponsive mostly to the external environment but anyways why am I saying this because it's just its part it's ingrained in the DNA of us all human beings so recapping fear is a basic human emotion right and um it is a trigger really a good important trigger to help us all to survive uh if you think about it uh it's mostly an unpleasant emotion don't you think Peter it's not good to to to to feel fear but uh if you think about it it is triggered by a belief or reality both can be just a your imagination or reliving a situation say for those that have had um a trauma right just to relive that trauma or the the reality that someone or something is dangerous that someone or something is going to cause some sort of pain physical or emotional pain and that something or someone can be a threat to move you out of your stability and we're not equipped to confront them so uh just to finalize here Peter I often joke that uh you know with this notion that yes we are afraid and yes it's a survival mechanism but we no longer live in the African Savannah where we could be right now the innocent prey to perhaps lionesses in in the middle of a hunt

ion that yes we are afraid and yes it's a survival mechanism but we no longer live in the African Savannah where we could be right now the innocent prey to perhaps lionesses in in the middle of a hunt theater this goes back to you the mic is yours I'd love to hear from you what what causes fear in our modern society right our Modern Life and most important why do we live in fear right we live lives that are just commonly laced with fear okay well first of all thank you for having me it's a pleasure to be here um well Modern Life of course is extremely complex um and as you were alluding to before you mentioned we don't have the same kinds of dangers most of us I would say that uh we our ancestors had from yeah centuries and centuries ago um where the chance of being attacked by an animal for instance was greater we did not have adequate shelter to protect us against not only animals but the elements naturally we still face these problems with the elements um as as homes are often destroyed and things like that um I mentioned this because in some ways the fears we have now in Modern Life are they drastically different from fears from long ago yes and no um you mentioned uh being attacked by an animal I was thinking also um if you go back to this country's history when the earliest settlers there was always the possibility of attack from other either fellow settlers or some in some cases indigenous peoples and things like that certainly disease was something that people must have been very afraid of because people were more vulnerable to disease in the past and than we are now but having said that we still have lots of diseases and then you know if we look at the complexity of Modern Life uh driving everywhere certainly Ines the chances of injury or death and we're more likely toh suffer from a car accident either fatally or or severely injured then we are than to say be attacked by a total stranger and if we have fears about crime well there are reasons why that does you know obviously it happens and

nt either fatally or or severely injured then we are than to say be attacked by a total stranger and if we have fears about crime well there are reasons why that does you know obviously it happens and it's legitimate but if one say terrified of being murdered by a stranger you're far more likely to be murdered by a family member statistically speaking but the thing about fear is we need I mean thank God we have the reaction of fear because if we didn't we would not be able to survive fear is a protective mechanism that helps to get ourselves out of danger however fear also is something that can be easily distorted phobias all kinds of phobias that we uh phobia by definition are often distortions of realities so if you're terrified of uh I don't know dogs for instance um that may be rooted in an actual experience but the way we turn it into something much worse and be fearful of all kinds of either dogs or cats or whatever animal we might be afraid of um is if every single animal that represents that particular species is a danger um I mean I was attacked by a a German Shepherd when I was a kid not no did it make me terrified of dogs no it didn't but I do know people who are deeply terrified of dogs and um it's you know where does that come from was it based on personal experience as spiritists we can ask you know since we believe in reincarnation is it a prior experience and so forth but a lot of times fear is either um it maybe it's a little hard to distinguish when fear is rooted in a genuine reality in which we should be cautious and careful and other times where we've exaggerated fears and it depends on what type of fear we have if we're afraid of certain people for instance is that because we've distorted who they are in our minds how much is fear connected to projection and by projection I mean a psychological trait or behavior in which we exaggerate uh a certain perception that we have that has little to do with reality so if I have fears of certain individuals if I don't know that person

n a psychological trait or behavior in which we exaggerate uh a certain perception that we have that has little to do with reality so if I have fears of certain individuals if I don't know that person that well and I don't have a realistic reason to be afraid of that person that I may be making up all kinds of assumptions about that person projections in other words um and that can happen in a variety of ways but let's take something very common place what about fear of rejection yes which all experienced u in in her book um um existential conflicts Joanna deangelus mentions in passing um that fear of rejection is is certainly up there especially if we have a romantic interest in someone and we could be afraid that they don't feel the same way back and being rejected that way is an awful feeling there's there's you know no pretending around it especially if we haven't experience that too and we're not used to being rejected of course if we're attracted to somebody we want that person to reciprocate um it it makes us feel sad it affects our self-esteem we feel and everything else that we may be going through as a result of that person rejecting us but does that mean we should never seek someone out or try to uh pursue someone that we're interested in you know by pursue I mean do it within respectable boundaries but but never take the risk of I I'm interested and that person and so I'm going to see if maybe I can get closer to that person um one way to confront fear of rejection would be to experience it and keep trying um this is just one example by the way but terrified of rejection chances are uh we need to go through it so that we can actually experience what it really feels like to be rejected and it can be an awful feeling but we also God willing will wake up and realize I got through it yes my life did not come to an end despite it's all about fortitude right Peter we as we go through an experience we become stronger through it and I believe uh the same book that you quoted uh she mentioned

life did not come to an end despite it's all about fortitude right Peter we as we go through an experience we become stronger through it and I believe uh the same book that you quoted uh she mentioned that the three uh biggest fears and it's just very interesting one is fear of dying okay and if you are um uh someone who believes in Incarnation that's not so much of fear any longer right you the Mortal body dies but you don't as a spirit but nevertheless we all have that instinctive fear of death uh the fear of rejection as you mentioned so well and of course the the fear failing and the fear failing I I like to to bring it up perhaps the the notion that it's really an egoic construct what are we afraid of failing for right why is it so critical and it is this uh we don't want to to shatter the Persona that the ego so carefully crafted to to make sure that the external world will recognizes as a successful person etc etc and as we fail just this this uh terrible fear comes in um just want to let you know and my environment of work right um um and this is mostly AG gender based or at least those that shared with me the question of men to health and anxiety is so so uh prevalent Peter and it it it really it's disheartening to me to see why are we all living in fear but if we break down number one that is n perfectly perfectly normal right perfectly normal we all uh have fears and it's actually good because it's a survival mechanism but number two as we see those three main fears out there um uh number one number two number three and those are all things that we should be able to be equipped to manage that to handle that but uh can you perhaps give me some examples uh of those those additional fears that uh you know just that we all live I think uh uh I was thinking Peter that uh you know and this is in in not just in North America but uh in the US for the past what 15 years uh the idea of active Shooters have been creeping up in urban societies and and it comes to our worst

h you know and this is in in not just in North America but uh in the US for the past what 15 years uh the idea of active Shooters have been creeping up in urban societies and and it comes to our worst type of uh uh fears which is I go to a movie theater and I'm relaxed in the dark and somebody shoots say or I go dancing or the worst of it all my kids go to school to a protected place to learn and they may not survive so I cringe every time I have to go through this annual uh active shooter training to learn to right to be what to do in the case of an active shooter in my work environment and uh and this is terrible because uh in my opinion we we should be strong and we should create that sense of trust and uh you know uh as Christians we we really understand the the the biblical words right that we should not worry we should have faith in this uh infin mercy of God that nothing uh bad will happen to us instead we are we just going through so many pressures Peter in society is just terrible um I I don't know if you want to uh speak to that wow um because fears like that it it probably wouldn't matter if you looked at it statistically and and could prove you know from a mathematical perspective what are the odds that you would be a victim of something true but at the same time it does happen and people really are suffering as a result of it the family of course the victims and so forth those who survive um and it's I I think maybe a question we could ask ourselves is we could certainly think of all kinds of things that could happen to us but do we do we have no choice but to fixate on them because if we're so paranoid and fearful of everything that might potentially happen then we would never leave our homes correct and uh and who's to say we're safe in our homes for that matter well and and I I keep thinking here right when you say that well uh if you start to be very um evidence-based based right or statistical evidence based on on how we need to protect ourselves and in in I

ll and and I I keep thinking here right when you say that well uh if you start to be very um evidence-based based right or statistical evidence based on on how we need to protect ourselves and in in I live in a city you live in a city so let's use that uh let's go ahead and uh start using mechanism to mitigate from being attacked say right so uh it's Urban there's urban violence there are criminals what do we do right we we don't want uh our well-being our family wellbeing and sense of security or even the assets that you so carefully uh worked for earned for and now have to taken away to be stolen and can you imagine we we end up um building um walls that are taller and taller and have more and more sophisticated security systems and but all were're doing is and I'm I'm I'm been very freethinking here Peter but uh uh we're really creating walls that imprison us and may lead to increasing isolation right and with that increased isolation we may also lose our sense of self a sense of place a sense of um perhaps identity right and that may lead to EV even more sense of insecurity and and fear that may lead to to phobias and other pathological types of uh uh um States and so that kind of approach or reaction to be to to wall ourself off not only does it not make us more secure it might actually perpetuate other types of emotions that could affect our bodies so forth and so yeah irony of that approach that kind of paranoid reaction may wind up shortening Our Lives rather than absolutely absolutely right we our mental health will be impacted and uh our physical health may also be uh impacted and at the end of the day despite of all those uh um uh physical constructs to help us will actually lead us to to to a worse state right yeah maybe one of the root root uh causes of fear I don't know if it's a root cause but I'm I'm thinking off the top of my head here a little bit is the feeling that we must have security and we can never experience surprise we must always know what to expect before

it's a root cause but I'm I'm thinking off the top of my head here a little bit is the feeling that we must have security and we can never experience surprise we must always know what to expect before it happens um that that we somehow can't live with the unexpected which is not realistic of course yeah right yeah but um sometimes people uh are so fearful of a lot of different things that that they really are afraid to step out into the world so to speak they become agoraphobics yeah because again you could imagine all the sorts of things that might happen but that's also an A A preoccupation with the future yes and part of developing spirituality is to learn how to really live in the moment how to absolutely moment next and not be obsessing about the future you know we're all going to have problems the difference is how do we react to the problems we may experience certain tragedies that are really really bad but how do we react to them and sometimes when we really are faced with a genuine danger we're more resilient than we give ourselves credit for that's true yeah that's true yeah um if we're caught off guard in some way if somebody attacks us um God forbid but if it happens are we able to somehow respond in which we get out of the situation or maybe um we're not as vulnerable or weak as we assume we might be yeah um Peter I wanted to I don't know if you if you are okay with this but I want to maybe pivot our conversation about living with fear with something very interesting uh from The Works of J d'angel specifically in the book The integral human no no not the integral human being I'm sorry with the existential conflicts uh she has an entire chapter around fear uh both books do but in existential conflicts she starts her chapter and I I invite all of you to if you haven't done so to perhaps consider uh either borrowing or purchasing that book it's just really an amazing compendium of discussions on uh what a society what ails uh all of us as human beings in in many different

o to perhaps consider uh either borrowing or purchasing that book it's just really an amazing compendium of discussions on uh what a society what ails uh all of us as human beings in in many different chapters and they each chapter gives us the problem but also uh POS potential Solutions but in that book uh she she starts to talk about something that's super interesting to me uh specifically which is the the notion of uh the state of humanity today and we're talking about where we are right now which is uh really a transitional type of world uh spiritually speaking but at this point we are finally almost as if the metaphor would be we're no longer children right and we're becoming perhaps young adults so there's this this whole notion of maturity coming to us but with that maturity is uh the term that she uses beautifully is that conscious the expansion of our Consciousness right which is this Awakening of our true our self uh in beyond our ego and and she talks she talks about in the book uh uh in the chapter that in doing so and it's the perhaps a Parx in in in the thought process by expanding who we are we actually let it come to the surface all the things that in the past we were unable to confront and now they start to surface so one of the things that comes are really well my my past either in another lifetime or in this lifetime but I have repressed there are certain dose of guilt a certain dose of Shame perhaps and as I am now dealing with that in in this transition and it's still Awakening right still not there in in terms of our uh psychological maturity spiritual maturity either we are coming to turn terms or coming to to uh feel guilt shame and uh with that the fear that those feelings bring to us in our day-to-day lives right so for example um um if I am I'm feeling guilty or even ashamed and you you you start to to operate in the famous uh impostor syndrome right the famous I'm going to fake it I make it but underneath I know that I'm not going to make it because

uilty or even ashamed and you you you start to to operate in the famous uh impostor syndrome right the famous I'm going to fake it I make it but underneath I know that I'm not going to make it because I'm not there yet and it's self-doubt self questioning um guilt and the big four-letter word fear right fear that I'm going to be found out fear that I'm going to fail fear that I'm not not going to succeed so I think it's very interesting for us to see that in in this whole discussion it's it's it's a good part uh from The ancestral uh past which is fear is there to to help us survive and now that we're progressing and we're talking about uh many many many lifetimes thousands of years that we have survived as an immortal Spirit we're now confronting the fact that we are mature enough spiritually speaking to start to have to de with things that we couldn't in the past but the fear that is there is is actually something that we should look carefully confronted carefully be kind to ourselves right recognize it we are afraid but be prepared to whatever means necessary is it through prayer is it through therapy is it even in some cases a medication but what is it that's going to help was calm down right breathe be able to breathe to be in peace to to establish a balance uh in ourselves so that we're able to be the David against the Goliath of our lives right in order to uh expand our Consciousness I would say the following the capacity we have for remorse and at times guilt is a wakeup call I did something in the past that I wish I had not done I hurt certain people and I do feel badly about it hopefully that'll lead to me also going I won't do it again and make amends with that person I hurt by all means do so certainly Jesus stresses that um Jesus stresses it by saying if you're Brothers taking you to the courthouse so to speak before the judge you should make amends before you get there or you will go to jail and and you won't get out till you pay every last penny which is a metaphoric way of

u to the courthouse so to speak before the judge you should make amends before you get there or you will go to jail and and you won't get out till you pay every last penny which is a metaphoric way of expressing that the more we avoid taking responsibility the more we live with the consequences of that Jewish holiday young kipor is all about atonement and people are encouraged every year that they go through that that high holiday to make amends to if we've offended somebody or we have a problem with somebody actively seek that person out and try to resolve it if we can so remorse again is a mechanism that helps us to wake up so to speak and as we expand our Consciousness the capacity to experience remorse I think the intention of it is it's more of a something we pass through we through it long enough so that it does lead to a deeper transformation which includes taking responsibility and also being more mindful about not to do versus what we can do guilt however can be a little different guilt and remorse could be the same as long as it doesn't go on too long but if we feel guilty guilty guilty guilty guilty that turns into a mask maybe we feel guilty in quotes to deflect criticism I'm going to feel terribly guilty about what I did oh I'm sorry Marcia I didn't mean to do such and such I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry and my message to you is don't criticize me don't don't tell me what I'm you know don't confront me please so that is a mask guilt could also be anger and disguise you know I'm sorry I hurt you but in some ways I'm not sorry I hurt you so it's a kind of thing where um uh I'm not really in touch with my feelings so just to repeat I would say remorse and guilt if they're not if they don't go on too long then they might be almost interchangeable but if guilt just goes on and on and on then it can turn into a mask but the way to confront it is that we have to take responsibility no matter how uncomfortable that makes us and have the courage to admit when we've done

on and on and on then it can turn into a mask but the way to confront it is that we have to take responsibility no matter how uncomfortable that makes us and have the courage to admit when we've done something wrong and going back to fear um if we uh try to make amends with somebody and they just you know refuse then at least we've tried and that does help us to free ourselves in a way um it's not fun to go through that obviously but um but again do we have the courage to seek to not only feel guilty and have remorse but to then seek a way to Res resolve whatever happened seeking forgiveness certainly uh if we need to but um also Just Having the courage to experience whatever the reaction of that person really is if we are operating with this attitude that we must fix everything you know we can't have anybody upset with us God forbid um sometimes we simply can't sometimes we rubbed somebody the wrong way or we uh punch you we we uh crossed a line with that person and we're done with them you know they're done with us I should say and we have to accept that um so guilt also is I think in a way guilt would be close to an inability to forgive because the more you can't forgive someone the more you're hanging on to an event most likely from the past to it starts eating away at you it's like the snake eating its own tail yeah right so um guilt again can have a similar kind of effect where um it it becomes nonproductive to the extent that it's a wakeup call just to repeat that point yeah then it can help us but but are we really meant to go through life just feeling perpetually guilty about everything it's it's our choice right it's our choice uh in in terms of uh can we the ultimate Act of uh of love is to to to perform selflove and and uh as we know we are our worst enemies therefore we end up failing ourselves our expectations etc etc and uh so with that that means for us to be able to exercise self love love the others love ourselves we need to learn to forgive learn to

herefore we end up failing ourselves our expectations etc etc and uh so with that that means for us to be able to exercise self love love the others love ourselves we need to learn to forgive learn to forgive simply means we we need to understand our limitations and um create uh in the same vein that our father gives us many many many many chances to to learn to relive uh a circumstance etc etc that we can do the same to ourselves so it it's this sense of a love and mercy and forgiveness they're all intertwined right Peter right because if we can't forgive through an act of self-love then we could stay wallowing in guilt and therefore perpetuating fears yes maybe that's the reason why in that chapter you mentioned chapter four on fear existential conflicts it ends with Joanna Angelus stressing the love is the way to overcome fear yes yes can you explain more about it for those that may not understand what how what Peter love right what is the the the antithesis to fear is love let let's talk about it I think you were just touching on it because you mentioned self love yes self love means okay I did something wrong I do feel badly about it I wish I I could you know make amends somehow uh but I love myself enough that I'm not going to beat myself up about it endlessly yes because if I beat myself up endlessly that's a sign of immaturity same time if I do not apologize and I don't feel guilty and I rationalize that too is immaturity because I'm refusing to take responsibility but self love is is acknowledging that we are all going to foul up over and over and over and over and over again yeah but it's okay you know as long as we are learning the lessons and we do our best not to repeat certain behaviors but chances are we will we'll probably make the same mistake more than once but at least learning as we go through this and developing a strong enough sense of who we are that we don't just blindly repeat the same behavior again and again and again and selflove helps us

once but at least learning as we go through this and developing a strong enough sense of who we are that we don't just blindly repeat the same behavior again and again and again and selflove helps us to have the courage to let go and accept that we have not done everything perfectly it's frustrating when we realize we could have made certain choices that would have been better and it's humiliating when we realize we've fouled up or we didn't see something in the past that now is very obvious to us hindsight is 2020 correct right but if we can learn to free ourselves through self-love and again that's not narcissism yeahuh it's about helping ourselves to free ourselves from turning a past event into such a distorted event in our psyche that it it uh it's it's like a case of the past really interfering with the present obsessively so right in some cases it could be trauma as one of the most common ones but even if it's not a traumatic event we can fall prey to our own uh fixed ideas in that uh ideation it just keeps churning our heads and and becomes another prison right another shekele that uh that we we put ourselves because how often are we making decisions based upon limited knowledge ah good point about mistakes we make business mistakes for instance this one example you made certain choices based upon what you knew at the time and sometimes we make choices that work out and other times we realized we made choices in which there were uh there were flaws in our decision making because we didn't have all the information we need and still it can be frustrating and humiliating but at the same time um can we forgive ourselves for doing that and life is so much going back to fear it is impossible for any of us to have a full perspective about everything we might encounter it's just not going to happen can I can I interrupt you just to to give you a personal example uh Peter sorry for that but uh I was thinking right I by trade I am a project manager and the value the biggest value

t going to happen can I can I interrupt you just to to give you a personal example uh Peter sorry for that but uh I was thinking right I by trade I am a project manager and the value the biggest value that a project manager uh brings to an organization is what we call risk management what is risk management is simply put the exercise of logging all the what they call known unknowns what is a Known Unknown it's something that you already know that can happen but it's unknown because it may not happen happen right uh it may happen in the future but it has not happened yet so it is a Known Unknown and that unknown can be uh I don't know in in construction a project which I don't work in that but uh let's pretend I am uh working in your neck of the woods in the the northeast of the US where temperatures can drop and you are finishing a house and you have to do the external P job and temperatures start to freeze early that's a a risk that's a potential failure to your project to if if it gets to code so by logging those issues and by creating a plan of attack if you will then you you minimize the impacts of all of the things that could come and uh and make your project not uh do that but there's another component in project management which is there is Known Unknown there's also an unknown unnown right who could have predicted that the world would go through a pandemic yeah right and you could say yes there are predictions but you you did not uh uh really put that as something that's going to happen and it's going to stop people from going to work stop you know just paralyzing entire world entire Society was impacted by that or uh lately yeah go ahead it happened so fast that you would have had Ed preventative measures almost perfectly yeah and like Katrina in in 2005 right the floods in the south of Brazil that came and just a near an entire State got under water and you can think who would have thought that would rain so much to De proportion that an entire state would be underwater right

uth of Brazil that came and just a near an entire State got under water and you can think who would have thought that would rain so much to De proportion that an entire state would be underwater right mostly underwater so those are the things that uh in Project we call unknown unknowns and for that you have contingencies right you you prepare by put in a reserve let's think perhaps what can be our contingency and our contingencies in emotional health in mental health could be seek help right if if you feel that your fears uh and you mentioned a couple are nearing a phological state seek help is there in so many forms seek help and if it's not there but still impec in your life let's think about what are the things that Joanna gives to us right we talked about the practice self-love self forgiveness but even a prayer or or or calling uh uh someone in your social network that can just hold your hands even if it is virtually right hold your hands while you're talking to the person on the phone like I'm I'm not well can we talk it through because as we talk it through we start to see we are not in the savannah in the Sahara and lioness is not hunting us right most of the things are coming at us can be rationalized and uh we are able to to address those you know something else I would add to all of this that I was thinking yeah going back to being hunted by alius for instance yeah obviously we human beings are vulnerable yes if we go up against a line we're going to lose I think it's safe to say unless we but we do have something to you know the human body is very powerful in many ways and very resourceful in many ways but thing that we have and I think you were connecting to this indirectly is our intelligence and our capacity for reason our Capac for thinking our way through a problem and resilience right resilience to be able to understand and come back yeah seek it out that kind of thing um and so much of fear is when we are imagining ourselves to be in situations where we're completely and

nce right resilience to be able to understand and come back yeah seek it out that kind of thing um and so much of fear is when we are imagining ourselves to be in situations where we're completely and utterly helpless to do anything about it I mean how many movies are out there that are rooted in some type of fear you know pop Jaws for yeah yeah you know people were afraid to go to the ocean after that movie came out I was I was right there like Jurassic Park you know imagine living side by side with the Dinosaurs you know that kind of thing um how unstable that would be um the only way we could defend ourselves is to use our intelligence that's right that kind of thing um so and yet the irony of that is we also can use our thinking to exaggerate problems and make them worse than they really are um so it's kind of a paradox but as you were saying you know we have the ability to come up with Solutions we can seek help we're not isolated and we can use use our resources in a variety of ways to get ourselves out of situations or work through problems that we're currently facing and we may come up with solutions that were not so obvious at the beginning and that's also part of the beauty of confronting fear is that when we begin to work our way through something that's fearful to us we may discover all kinds of ways of getting through it that never would have occurred to US unless we actually took the steps to do so absolutely absolutely we are at time look at that our conversations is so nice and that I could be talking to you forever but Peter I want to say thank you for sharing your your thoughts your knowledge uh your awareness of this this thing called fear and uh my words to everyone who's here with us today is let's let's be good to each other let's love each other love oneself love the other but also as uh an amazing uh writer Joseph Campbell brought to us the image of uh of the Journey of the hero right you cannot yeah right the the many of of his books that he brings that that

the other but also as uh an amazing uh writer Joseph Campbell brought to us the image of uh of the Journey of the hero right you cannot yeah right the the many of of his books that he brings that that uh notion of the the hero and the the hero doesn't exist exist if you do not go through a situation that uh it is one that you're not yet or don't know that you're equipped to to do it so for me that the hero's journey is it's really well exemplified by the the in biblical uh terms David and Goliath the young boy against the giant right and the intelligent like you said the resourcefulness the resilience but most important despite it all he got up to confronted and I think that's the call today is let us confront our fears because at the root of it all is our Consciousness is being awakened and which means we are evolving uh we are maturing We are Becoming better so I love all of it despite of all the the the points and counterpoints the Paradox is found in this discussion but I want to say thank you Peter so much for being here with me and we'll see you again next time okay thank you it's been a pleasure bye bye everyone bye bye