Ep 32 - Psychological Liberation and Suffering... Really?!?

foreign hi everyone welcome to the psychology and spirituality a bridge to a better life discussion I'm your host Marcia trojano and with me today is Peter Hayes Peter is the president of the spiritus group love and light in Newark New Jersey and he returns to our program today it is such an honor to be here with you Peter your background includes lectures discussions as well as participation in different uh symposia conferences Etc and you always come here with this goal to to bring light to Concepts that are found in spiritism so in addition to doing all of this you have contributed right Peter to I believe over 60 episodes of the radio program living Spring on cardiac radio check it out uh for all of you who have not heard it uh and you're also um contributed as an ed part of the editorial staff for the spirit's book that was conducted by the U.S spiritus Federation today you Peter are serving in the board of directors of the organization U.S spiritus Federation and you're also a very active participant in the tri-state spiritus Federation I just want to say thank you Peter for all that you do but thank you Marcia absolutely absolutely but uh let's say if you are tuning in and this is the first time that you're watching this podcast like program please note this program the psychology and spirituality weekly talks are based on the works by Joanna DeAngelis and we're going to be discussing right Peter today some Concepts that she the spiritual author brought to us and this discussion just just offer uh what we are hoping to be a very safe space to to Really confront to compare and even correlate certain Notions of our uh concepts of spirituality from a psychological lens right so we have spiritual Concepts but we're going to bring that psychological lens so that we can take away with us today some insights and tips and maybe even some real world advice so that we all can have a better life and today's episode of course is brought to you by our friends at spiritus group love and

th us today some insights and tips and maybe even some real world advice so that we all can have a better life and today's episode of course is brought to you by our friends at spiritus group love and light so thank you to know more about that organization visit them at love and lightnj.org the overall program is sponsored by four organizations Ami Brazil the TV manzando Camino the international spiritus Council and the United States spiritus Federation make sure you hit subscribe if you haven't done so and uh please check us out by going to the link spiritus.us for more information also if you have any questions comments feedback please please put in the chat window so that we can better align with your expectations or your reactions to this conversation but uh Peter we are here today to bring this very interesting concept of psychological Liberation right it's a very uh for me quite uh intricate notion because we're talking about Liberation Freedom psychologically speaking as it is juxtaposed with a very difficult concept right which is pain so with that Peter I wanted to say have you watched that uh 2004 quite controversial movie uh The Passion of the Christ have you seen it yes I have um it's been a little bit of time since I saw the movie but one of the things I remember rather vividly about it is that it's it's it's very difficult to watch I mean it really emphasizes the pain that Jesus went through in the passion uh there are moments of torture in it and uh the the the horror of it is rather graphic at times so the movie can be difficult to experience that in that regard um but I think one of the questions it's asking us is when we think about psychological liberation is there a connection between pain or difficulties that we experience and psychological Liberation and if so what what is that about what do we need to go through uh for instance the well-known spiritist philosopher Leon Denis who was in the late 19th century early 20th century published several books about spiritism it was a

about what do we need to go through uh for instance the well-known spiritist philosopher Leon Denis who was in the late 19th century early 20th century published several books about spiritism it was a well-known interpretive spiritism I remember one of the books of his I read he talks about the importance of suffering and relation itself is quite controversial right they yeah listen to the what you just said the importance of suffering so go ahead Peter and it's like oh my goodness no thank you so the question would be this um in order for us to grow spiritually or to learn do we have to suffer and what do we mean by that well and also sorry to interrupt you Peter but also like uh if I can repeat your words right in order to uh evolve spiritually do I need to suffer but I think there's a linkage right so again just so we can keep the thread because it's quite uh in my opinion uh obscure those threads right for me to evolve do I need to suffer but uh also the the how it Leapfrogs this growth spiritual growth into Enlightenment and the so-called psychological uh Liberation right so it's almost like the the ending in mind for this discussion is how do we get to that psychologically speaking that sense of freedom and you get that through spiritual growth and so goes back to your it goes back to your question do we need to suffer to get to that uh Middle Ground well first of all is suffering can we avoid suffering as we are born into this world and we experience everything that we experience whether it's the the relationship we have with our bodies the relationship we have with the people who are close to us the families we grow up in the families we may have on our own as adults the both the personal and professional relationships we go through Financial challenges and everything else so really struggle of one kind or another is unavoidable correct one could ask is there any benefit to it or is it just we're here to suffer no well I don't think that's the point either right everything we go through is

f one kind or another is unavoidable correct one could ask is there any benefit to it or is it just we're here to suffer no well I don't think that's the point either right everything we go through is an opportunity to learn which can be very positive it may not be much fun while we're going through it but it doesn't mean that everything is this is a very pessimistic view which I don't believe in but and maybe sorry again Peter uh you as you're talking there's all thoughts all sorts of thoughts that come to my mind but uh yes pessimistic right but then there's also something there is uh Underneath It All which is the the idea and I don't know if you can explore by the way but the idea that uh suffering there is a strong correlation between suffering and a physical existence right uh all of those things that you brought to us which are very real by the way I I don't mean by any means uh to dilute the suffering that we all may go through uh Financial hardships loss uh from a family member a loved one or uh difficulties to include mental um mental issues right physical issues and and the material uh exists in itself those responsibility worries that we go through uh so it's not that we're minimizing but those are really highlighting the material component of our existence in addition to that there is this whole uh spiritual Dimension to our existence that also uh brings about that idea and I think you're gonna go discuss that right Peter but this the whole idea that suffering also um portrays that the spiritual Dimension that most of us are not even thinking about yes that for instance Saint Augustine in um there's the spiritus codification would you like to explain the spirit of scarification quickly or I can you can please yes very quickly the spirit just codification is the five books that make up the uh this what spiritism is and it's a explanation of spiritism's understanding about the nature of our existence and it contains messages from Spirits on the other side that are often very

make up the uh this what spiritism is and it's a explanation of spiritism's understanding about the nature of our existence and it contains messages from Spirits on the other side that are often very philosophical very inspirational and very meaningful about the nature of our existence and in the third book of the spiritus codification The Gospel According to spiritism there's a passage attributed to Saint Augustine and Saint Augustine emphasizes that if we're going through something really difficult rather than complain or lament about it say it is something to be happy about and he's not saying we should be a masochist what he's saying if we get through this experience this challenge whatever it is and we get through it and we know we can get through it it is a victory everything we experience that is remotely challenging for us can be a victory uh whether it's certain relationships we're in whether it's certain goals that we have for our lives certainly physical challenges you know health related issues and so forth and this I think is connected to the passion of Jesus because again was there a kind of psychological Liberation or emotional Liberation as a result of going through that ordeal what'd you think that's there is a large delivery well first of all of us are being asked to go through that so if you have to thank you thank goodness rather I think one of the important messages of the passion is how do any of us stand up when people have betrayed us when we have not been treated fairly because Jesus brings a message of Love Yes suppose he became angry and vindictive these people don't appreciate me they don't like me look what they're doing to me I'm going to get even with them like we all do right Peter like we all do 9.99 of us do the point one of the major points of the passion is that Jesus remained faithful to himself even when that happened to him yeah so can any of us when we go through things that are unfair unjust challenging can we be can we maintain

ts of the passion is that Jesus remained faithful to himself even when that happened to him yeah so can any of us when we go through things that are unfair unjust challenging can we be can we maintain our equilibrium can we still be grounded can we still be compassionate towards people you know the way any of us can be compassionate towards a small child even when a small child misbehaves because we know it's a small child but do we have that same attitude with adults with our fellow adults not so much or with will yeah okay can I can I give an example Peter I I just I'm thinking as you is saying the example of a small child which is an example of maternal or paternal love right yes yes and and I think this is beautiful because we we kind of uh uh change the meaning of love we really don't understand and we we corrupt if you will the the the the the meaning of love but uh with that child even when as you said that child is doing something maybe not good or breaks something and uh we don't stop loving and yet we we teach right and uh and we move on from there as a teaching experience and the one thing that came to my mind immediately as you said that and there's a reason for that but uh is the fact that if the example of if we were perhaps crossing the street let's say right okay and there is maybe a lot of people and uh somebody comes in and Bam hits us what is the expected right expected reaction you crazy aren't you watching there was a you know we all rushed can't you pay attention right right yet if that person visibly was a let's say a blind person with a cane and and and you can see and yes they same thing banging to you immediately what do we look into that situation it's you that was not paying attention to say suffering of the other right and allowed the suffering of the other the blindness get to you and hurt you and that in itself Peter I think is a great example because the idea is we all are suffering right I don't know if you're going to talk about this but the reality is in

indness get to you and hurt you and that in itself Peter I think is a great example because the idea is we all are suffering right I don't know if you're going to talk about this but the reality is in this billions of inhabitants in our planet today I'm talking about this year right 2023 today we we are so many in so many different states of life either by a gender uh place of birth um educational access uh professional political uh religious whatever uh way of uh having access and status or success yet all of us the the common Nader is we all suffer if we all suffer why don't we look at the others suffering like we look we would look to that blind person across the street just a thought yeah I mean I think one of the reasons is because I'd like to say most of us struggle with some variation of egocentric Behavior you got it yeah we go into the world that way it's the child's right to be egocentric it's what children are but as you know through normal healthy development we are supposed to become less egocentric as we reach adulthood but do we well to varying degrees yes and no some are less some rather egocentric well into adulthood to pets right and I'm going back to what you were saying that example of say you're walking across the street and somebody's boom hits you by surprise you know one of the things I was thinking is have you had this experience where if you're caught by surprise in that kind of way is the first impulse what anger Maybe because it's a funny thing isn't it if we're caught by surprise it's like we're walking in the jungle or in the wilderness under attack the first thing that that comes to us is that adrenaline rush to defend ourselves okay so maybe that's part of a normal animalistic impulse but then as you were getting at the next step would be can I begin to pull back from how I'm reacting to that situation and ask what does the other person going through right so somebody's not fair to us for instance or attacks us maybe verbally or some way or it's just not doesn't treat

I'm reacting to that situation and ask what does the other person going through right so somebody's not fair to us for instance or attacks us maybe verbally or some way or it's just not doesn't treat us well do we once we maybe get over the initial hurt or anger we have do we look at what they're going through and where they're coming from it's not a way of excusing it necessarily it depends on the circumstances but do are we capable of going there that we're able to just have some idea of what people are are um are doing yeah and and I think uh Peter just back to what you're saying previously right and the example here is uh the passion of Jesus and for those who have not seen the movie right the movie is I believe focusing on the 12 hours which are the passion right if you go to uh anywhere in the world in a in a Catholic uh let's say uh Cathedral no matter where you are in the world you often will find that the 12 Steps the 12 hours of the passion which is increasingly painful right but uh uh we we are we're talking here as an example um the what is it uh tragedy right and and and it's uh there's so much as you mentioned but it also uh brings us like I'm gonna put myself as the person who's crossing the street and hitting the blind person in this case would be Jesus let's say right what about my self-awareness about my own behavior my own conduct and the fact that I could indeed if I am not self-aware look at the suffering person blindness in this case and just going to a rant right we we we look about uh what the condemnation and judgment and just tirade of uh being angry at that person that crossed your path regardless of their stage in life and and then uh somebody or somehow I find out oh my goodness Peter look at how crazy or silly or unaware I was by letting my instinctive right you mentioned the reaction that instinctive uh uh emotional response in this case anger it could be fear it could be any any trigger to that response of condemnation that then after a review of our response

ntioned the reaction that instinctive uh uh emotional response in this case anger it could be fear it could be any any trigger to that response of condemnation that then after a review of our response we get to a point to say uh I really messed up right I really messed up so what happens to us afterwards and in the case of Jesus if you not if you don't know we can talk about perhaps uh Peter right one of the his his uh the the the the rock behind the foundation Christianity uh but he he denies Christ three times right or Judas who sells him right and he then sells by uh getting money to identify the soldiers the the Romans to say that's Jesus get him now and that that leads to to the entire uh suffering that comes through the passion of Christ and what happens to him his his ah the sense of guilt and the sense of a complete completely been overwhelmed by by this this emotion LED them to different types of uh response to their own guilt but uh is that what Jesus wanted by the way right is that what yeah go ahead I Think Jesus knew that was going to happen I mean people says to Peter as you mentioned you will betray me three times by the time the crow cops and Peter's like no I would never do that to you and so so should we like condemn Peter for for that no Peter was acting like a human being you know he did what I think most of us would do he he panicked it's not the first time there's the moments um where he wants to heal people during the the gospels and he can't yeah they lack Faith because they were still struggling with their own sense of who they are and you know they and the thing about Peter versus Judas is Judas betrays Jesus and of course Judas kills himself and feels guilt and shame uh but Peter mobilizes he yes he and all the other disciples are very demoralized when Jesus passes on the cross but at the same time you know when he comes back and and gets them mobilized and they mobilize they come back and they go to the second temple during the Pentecost

lized when Jesus passes on the cross but at the same time you know when he comes back and and gets them mobilized and they mobilize they come back and they go to the second temple during the Pentecost uh about 50 days after the passion they uh received the Holy Spirit which Jesus told them was going to happen the Last Supper he tells them that and what it demonstrates is that the disciples even though they reacted the way they did during the passion which was they fled um and and acted like they didn't know Jesus they turned around they regrouped they found their faith and then and this is the message right so Peter this is the message of psychological Liberation uh can you tell us perhaps what is the difference from Peter right uh who recognize with shame that yes Jesus you're right uh you saw through me and uh you even alerted me and I fell I failed you by denying you and I'm ashamed and you I don't know if you remember right he cried and cried and cried over over his own sense of of Shame and guilt but Jesus Judas instead he held on to that guilt to the point that it became overwhelming and he he had to to to to completely destroy himself because he could not face that guilt so the question then becomes if we go back to to the idea of psychological Freedom right what do we need what is the lesson that we have it here in front of us through the fact that we suffer right you mentioned that we all suffer regardless if it's a through spiritual uh triggers or or material triggers we we all uh are very much human in this Connecting Point that's what makes us all very much alike we all are going through some sort of pain or a pain point that is is easily you know once it's triggered it it exacerbates so suffering uh hopefully not like Jesus Christ in those 12 hours but we all do we cannot minimize the other person's pain and and then the sense of guilt uh that we we face after we also found and I'm I'm not talking about the Judas or or Peter or anybody but I'm talking

all do we cannot minimize the other person's pain and and then the sense of guilt uh that we we face after we also found and I'm I'm not talking about the Judas or or Peter or anybody but I'm talking about perhaps uh those soldiers right those people doing the the trial of Jesus that think about it uh Peter he healed so many people right we hear that he healed the uh lepers and those who were blind those who could not walk all of those that had a complete change of their lives where were they why couldn't they come and say uh no he's not what you're saying right all of them disappeared yet like you mentioned before he went through all of that I would say indignation unfairness with extreme sense of balance right and acquiescence to whatever was going to go through to teach us indeed a lesson about our fortitude as human beings to withstand any type of pain physical emotional right or or spiritual and survive and do it well so what can we talk about um maybe uh Peter in this sense of psychological Liberation what is it that we we you and I and everybody else here what do we need to learn from from this idea of discussing the movie The Passion of the Christ right and yeah go ahead I would say one word forgiveness yes really Christianity is about forgiveness and if imagine kind of go back to a thing I was talking about before imagine if Jesus reacted with vindictiveness suppose he was angry these people didn't love me the way they were supposed to that kind of thing yeah his entire message would have collapsed it would have meant nothing because it's one thing to talk about love and compassion love your neighbor he must love God with all your heart and your neighbors yourself but then we get put to the test and can we get through the test but the other part of that forgiveness is no the apostles don't pass the test in that moment so to speak yes no not at all again as mentioned before they're behaving like human beings it's like you were saying before the minute the crow caught and

e apostles don't pass the test in that moment so to speak yes no not at all again as mentioned before they're behaving like human beings it's like you were saying before the minute the crow caught and Peter realized he had betrayed Jesus three times he just went oh my God I didn't look what I did but how did he react he regrouped I like Peter because Peter's like The Little Engine That Could you know well and he has a great name right just kidding name it all yeah he he can fall flat on his face and he's got the humility and the courage to get back up learn the lessons as best he can doesn't mean he won't make mistakes later on can keep going that does you know Judas is another representation of that human side of us that feels so ashamed and so horrified that we feel like the only choice we have is to take ourselves out yeah but yeah this is is I think misses the point too you know um have I I I'm not I think I've seen or have haven't there been um some places where they like burn an effigy of Judas as if he's like the most popular yes it's actually very common in in the part of the country where I was born which was not in the U.S was in Brazil in the Northeast is uh uh it's very interesting and Peter to to go through especially in small towns where this the main square and and to date right we're talking about oh my goodness uh about 2000 almost 2 000 years after the event and that uh that uh hanging uh the representation of hanging of Judas is is is is I don't know carthotic to those individuals who do it I don't understand uh I just know that uh let's say if I were judah's mother um the thing that you know is very real right the pain of anyone who has suicide ideation anyone who has lost a friend a loved one or a family member right close to to us through suicide it's it's something that marks them forever absolutely but in this case the spirit as we know the immortal spirit that uh at that time was Judas he receives all of those vibrations of those people that are

it's something that marks them forever absolutely but in this case the spirit as we know the immortal spirit that uh at that time was Judas he receives all of those vibrations of those people that are condemning so I again that that that idea of condemnation right he feels that at the time uh the spirit of Judas at the time who could not it was so overwhelmed by his own shame and and sense of guilt how does it feel that you you just cannot forget because there's thousands and thousands and thousands of people globally that take pleasure in killing him again I don't know how does do you have any thoughts about it the sense of how I feel the place is yeah if the message of these re-libbings of that you know in these festivals um if it's if it's about hating Judas what do you think well I was thinking is it about hating Judas or is about reminding oneself of what happened there and the reaction he had I must say I'm not sure I haven't didn't uh I haven't looked into this I didn't grow up with with these experiences yeah but um if it's about hating Judas then again I you know there was a line in the passion oh forgive me I think it's Luke it's the one gospel that has the line father forgive them they know not what they're doing which Jesus says when he's on the cross yes and that's such a resonant line because excuse me it says so much about how people often we don't know what we're doing yeah I think we know what we're doing but we don't what is the trigger right what is the trigger behind my when I say this I I have this this this vision of those who inflict pain but you can we can actually uh extrapolate the sense of judgment and condemnation and and just uh I'm gonna quote unquote kill kill this right for whatever reason and yet we rationalize right because if you think about it there are theaters of War today in our society there are many many areas of conflict and what I mean by that are worrying Nations or even within one nation warring fact or sections of communities that are are killing each

War today in our society there are many many areas of conflict and what I mean by that are worrying Nations or even within one nation warring fact or sections of communities that are are killing each other right and and but they're rationalizing The Killing for whatever reason and and so if we take away that political context or historical context and bring to us what this is a moment of reflection what entitled us to have such strong condemnation and Peter don't we do that sometimes even in the most innocent time I don't know I wake up in the middle of the nights three in the morning I grab my phone and I scroll in whatever uh social media platform and I look and I say what what and I'm kind of delusional it's three in the morning and I go and I pour out this this this terrible reaction and opinion and of course in this guise of anonymity or the great numbers of this doesn't matter it's just a word it's just a it's just a mobile device I can say whatever but aren't we expressing through this small Act exactly what in other contexts are the same types of hurt and and all that aggression that still reside in us as primitive still humans or beings that we are yeah the the desire for Retribution is a very deep current yeah I think we all have yeah yeah I think we don't of course yeah if we are doing our best to understand the message of Jesus then we're trying to free ourselves from those kinds of impulses yeah so again you know psychological Liberation is really about the ability to forgive the ability to forgive is about letting go yeah and not you know my group is right that group is wrong yeah my click right my club my my uh whatever Sports Club is the one that is better because by the way there's a reason behind I I need to have a feeling of belonging right yeah and so I'm going to protect that that family that the click that club that is mine against the the others but it's very interesting if we move away from the conversation to something very positive I think you alluded Before

tect that that family that the click that club that is mine against the the others but it's very interesting if we move away from the conversation to something very positive I think you alluded Before Peter in in terms of Jesus passion but also if we think about what preceded the passion which is an entire life right an entire life demonstrating evidence in being an Evidence of uh growth in a sense of perhaps of dignity right and how he he he he uh was bringing to us I you started this conversation with the idea that we all get crazy and we're so stressed and and we're all suffering for A B C or D and yet I don't know that we ever saw Jesus uh worrying about uh if he had enough money to go to haha McDonald's to get us a super-sized meal I'm just kidding here but instead he lived those lives regardless of how he was born because remember he was not born in wealth on the contrary he's the symbolism of his birth is one that he had nothing literally nothing and yet he demonstrate throughout his life this uh a life of the complete balance in in in in this Freedom that we're talking about it so from that perspective if we think about that he perhaps exemplified Joy right and and in every attention every event and so if we if we talk about joy we can say but Peter what is Joy right what is joy is it happiness is it a um it is we know a a basic human uh emotion one of the four basic emotion but what is it what is the what trick is that joy that I perhaps uh assume that Jesus had a life of and I I'm reminded through the teachings of spiritism of the notion of a deliberately plain and existence the goals for this existence right it is one that we most of us as Spirits were part of it and we said oh doing this next existence I am going to learn and in order for me to learn I'm going to go through this and in order to go through this I potentially may suffer so from that perspective Joy while constant is his message he never said my children you will not suffer right you will not go through struggles you

n order to go through this I potentially may suffer so from that perspective Joy while constant is his message he never said my children you will not suffer right you will not go through struggles you will not uh shed any tears for anything he didn't say that but what he brought yes yes right he said you're strong enough to overcome all of it in and I think um because we're coming close to to our time together but he brought this this notion of uh uh Joy of optimism of uh plenitude and plenty to this is a word that Jonah the Angelus brings a lot throughout her work and it simply just means full a sense of complete from within right yes yes so uh what what can we say as a conclusion about this discussion on uh psychological Liberation even even or despite extreme cases of suffering okay one thing I I did want to stress that I was thinking about before but we talked about suffering this should not be confused with some kind of masochism yes you know going back to the passion of Jesus is the message is we must all be a bunch of masochists in order to be spiritually liberated I'm not going to try to get into that one deeply but but I don't think that's the point I think rather if we just go through whatever challenges any of us have in our daily lives if we can do our best to get through them whatever they are that is a big victory and in terms of having that plenty two that that fullness of self do we have the strength within ourselves to go through whatever we need to go through and face it to the best of our ability passionate with ourselves as we go through that process meaning you know sometimes we're going to get frustrated sometimes we're going to fall short sometimes we'll judge ourselves or we judge others and so forth but can we release that again forgiveness and be able to really um stay truthful to our higher selves yes even when we're challenged and that's certainly I think one of the messages that Jesus is showing us through the passion really everything and certainly

eally um stay truthful to our higher selves yes even when we're challenged and that's certainly I think one of the messages that Jesus is showing us through the passion really everything and certainly one of the messages he was telling the apostles you know the disciples that you guys are not going to have an easy time of it you know that's essentially what he was telling them at times and they may not have fully understood but by the time they're ready to continue you know from in Acts of the Apostles for instance they've reached a point where they're ready to take yeah and go with it and you know Joanna to Angelus also says something I think that's very important now this is in chapter six of the book conscious D the disciples the apostles did not hate their executioners most of them died of violent death I think only one died in old age but correct but the others were all persecuted they did not and and her point was they they had an idea of what they were doing they were willing to take that on and when the moment finally happened they weren't vindictive about it yeah and and can I say something real quickly uh because you bring about a very good point here which is the the notion of once they not just knew rationally but they had completely internalized that consciousness of their own immortality right yes they they knew at that point that uh the ceasing of this life in in this corporeal body here it's it it it's not your real life they really knew that therefore their cessation of life through those uh terrible acts of martyrdom did not pose a problem right what it means to have faith yes yes what it means to have faith but let's go back to what I was saying earlier remember I said there's three points spiritual growth the second the middle point which is suffering and the third point is that uh actually it starts with the spirit to grow I'm sorry with suffering spiritual growth that leads to that psychological Liberation and the what we need to get that uh that uh

the third point is that uh actually it starts with the spirit to grow I'm sorry with suffering spiritual growth that leads to that psychological Liberation and the what we need to get that uh that uh uh spiritual growth may require suffering so that we can look at ourselves just like Peter did and remember what you said after he faced with his feet the shame and the fear and the guilt he turned around and became Peter that we know right the the Peter and it's amazing yeah it's amazing what he was able to do through that that step of uh uh looking Square in the eyes of of your own soul of your own guilt of your own shame and then you turn around and that was it in the case of uh and I'm gonna piggyback on what you're saying yes there were 12 Apostles and yes one out of the twelve did not have a violent death who was it John John the Evangelist and and John the Evangelist lived a life of love right he he he he's portrayed over and over again but this just just love and even when he went to the island I think about Patmos right where he he was on exile for many many years there's accounts of interesting accounts where he was sent to to die and he couldn't die he was just love he never once said I am an exile and this is a terrible experience no he loved he was in an essence of love and ever every day in every form in every way so for that matter he had reached his own spiritual growth and it's his own Liberation so I think this is a good way for us to perhaps uh end here with this idea that it's it's not a correlation no it's not a causation it's a correlation between suffering and spiritual growth the causation is what is whatever is the trigger to bring that awareness of our own inner uh inner self right through uh self-discovery in the transformation suffering or not go ahead Peter Well faith that we will have that inner discovery that we have the capacity for it yes I was also thinking as you were talking about John about the importance of loving yeah Humanity unconditionally

r Well faith that we will have that inner discovery that we have the capacity for it yes I was also thinking as you were talking about John about the importance of loving yeah Humanity unconditionally yes um that I know we need lined up and that's a big subject unto itself because there's different aspects of love so to speak you know yeah we're not necessarily going to love our bitterest enemies the same way we're going to love a family member but yeah right actually but loving them conditionally is more about again forgiving people and not hanging on to some kind of anger animosity desire for Retribution in which it only harms Us in the long run the more we stay angry at the world the more we you know my group's better than that group that we're hanging on to something that's going to take its toll on us yes and there's another area that Joanna Angeles talks about about the emotional effects on the physical which are very very important and that kind of danger and hatred is that sort of thing that can bring that about yeah I love that maybe we can come back and talk a little bit more about it uh Peter at a at a different time I just want to say thank you thank you for being here thank you for bringing that really rather complex set of of points and Counterpoint through suffering all the way to Joy in optimism and and strength right strength in love all the way through this this life of of happiness and Enlightenment but with that I'll see you next time in our next episode thanks everyone thank you it was a pleasure to be here foreign