Ep 126 - Good, Evil, and Everything In Between: Decoding the Duality PT 1

Hello everyone, welcome to psychology and spirituality, a bridge to a better life discussion. During our weekly episodes, we explore this intersection between spirituality and psychology and as a result we capture some interesting if not timeless wisdom contained in both fields. I want to thank you for joining today's talk about good and evil and everything in between. My name is Marcia Djano and with me is Peter Hayes who joins me as we embark on this deep dive into one of the most fundamental questions humanity has this eternal question about what is good what is evil right and Peter for as long had consciousness we I'm saying you me all of us members of the human race. We have wrestled with understanding and even defining the boundaries between those two forces from I would like to say maybe the innocence of the mythical Garden of Eden where if we think about it morality didn't even exist at the time >> to the more complex moral systems we now live by. This concept of good and evil has always been shaped by evolving social, spiritual and psychological understanding. So Peter, I hope to engage you in this conversation about the nature of morality, especially when we struggle with personal dilemmas that can have connotations of good and evil. And Peter, just a question for you for us to start. What are your thoughts about uh this topic? Can we together decode the duality of good and evil together? Okay. Well, thank you Marcia for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. The spirit's book uh in the third part which talks about the divine laws of God, there's a section on it about good and evil. And the question is asked, what's the difference? Good is described as anything that contributes to the betterment of humanity, the progress of humanity, the nurturing of humanity. It is implied that what is good in pursuing the good is what helps people to help one another. And generally, I think the important thing is that it's sustainable. Evil is described as that which causes

is implied that what is good in pursuing the good is what helps people to help one another. And generally, I think the important thing is that it's sustainable. Evil is described as that which causes harm to humanity, disruption, chaos and by its nature is unsustainable. So good we can live with so to speak and flourish, but if we're only engaged in evil or in the bad, then it's unsustainable. Of course, we do live with both, don't we? I mean, we um from that that creed and spiritism that emphasizes that were born simple and ignorant. >> Yes. >> We are individuals that we in the beginning we may be given a pass if you will because we don't know any better. But human beings are unique from all other species on the planet and that we are capable of knowing what we're doing and we're also capable of holding a grudge. We may have talked about this in the past, but the difference between humans and animals is that what animals are aggressive, they're aggressive as long as it takes to either get out of danger or hunt in if they're in the act of hunting. And once they've gotten what they're trying to accomplish, they stop being aggressive. But we are quite capable of remaining aggressive for a long period of time. We're capable of holding grudges. We're capable of hatred. That uh which is you know do animals hate? No. They act on instinct. >> So they can be violent. They can be very uh aggressive but they don't hate. But we are quite capable of hating. And hatred requ is what? Intent. It's deliberate. Um >> and and it's funny if I may just add here Peter the fact that you know the difference as we start talking about humanity versus animals in this case and how one is um intelligence there's this intelligence about uh the stage of development of humanity versus the instinctive nature of the behaviors of animals. But the other component besides intelligence is really awareness or self-awareness. >> Right? And and I would say what marks us distinctly as human beings, the humanity

re of the behaviors of animals. But the other component besides intelligence is really awareness or self-awareness. >> Right? And and I would say what marks us distinctly as human beings, the humanity within us is the possibility for compassion, possibility for um really live this um emotional uh soup, if you will, of goodness, of compassion, of uh and and and we don't have to to talk now, but because I interrupted your your flow. But uh it would be interesting perhaps if we can discuss a little bit about the teachings of Jesus for example because over and over and over again he he teaches us about love thy enemy right about forgiveness etc. But anyways, uh you were saying something regarding the animals and how once the threat is gone, the aggression is gone, right? >> Right. Once the threat is gone, animals don't stay aggressive, per se. In other words, >> you know, it's like this. Um I remember an expert on sharks said that if you're in the water with a shark, it's always dangerous. Of course. >> Yeah. >> But it's quite possible that if you're in the water with a shark, they may not do anything. Now, if they're hungry, that's another story. >> Yeah. >> It's not like all they want to do is kill. >> So, um but again, humans are quite capable of of hanging on to grudges, hanging on to animosity and hatred. And we do use our intelligence in all kinds of elaborate ways to perpetuate these kinds of attitudes and feelings. To go back to what you were just saying about Jesus um in stressing love thy enemies, what did what was the meaning of that? Should we love everyone equally? Do we love a stranger the same way we love our family members? No. Would we be expected to love somebody who hurt us and betrayed us? >> That's not very realistic. But when we talk about loving our enemies, we are talking about not seeking revenge on someone and not wanting real will to happen to somebody. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I love I love that because in on topic, right? So Jesus really as a master and he taught us through parables

eeking revenge on someone and not wanting real will to happen to somebody. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I love I love that because in on topic, right? So Jesus really as a master and he taught us through parables and and whatnot, but uh he he really brings the concept of overcoming evil by challenging perhaps a more traditional notion of the duality by just really suggesting that good and evil are not opposing equal forces. So to me there are all sorts of movies and and and um drama theater whatever that comes to my mind is this eternal if you will uh theme of good versus evil right but from from the teachings of Jesus specifically he he does say no we we don't need to destroy evil he teaches that uh in fact it's love, forgiveness, selflessness. Uh those are the biggest weapons to overcome evil to to overcome whatever source of uh um pain that exists. Right? So in the end um what we learn is that we do not need to resort to violence or hatred. In fact, um, and, uh, another amazing person that I love to bring about, he's my hero is Nelson Mandela, right? When he he brought the reconciliation um, trials for those that inflicted pain to face their victims. And through that face-to-face choice of forgiveness, then there was reconciliation and then there was healing to an entire nation that suffered so much. But anyways, when I I think about it, uh the other aspect that I think about it, Peter, here is the zero sum game, right? which is uh a dynamic uh traditional dynamic that good versus evil is that zero sum game where if I win you lose and vice versa right and Jesus says nah you can be evil but I'm going to love you I'm going to be kind to be compassion and with doing that I will dispel whatever is triggering you to to create this whatever conflicting uh aspects I I just thought is is is just amazing what he does. Right. >> I think part of it is we always have a choice and if somebody >> next to us behaves badly even if they harm us in some way or they mistreat us. Are we going to drag ourselves down to

e does. Right. >> I think part of it is we always have a choice and if somebody >> next to us behaves badly even if they harm us in some way or they mistreat us. Are we going to drag ourselves down to their level by reciprocating the same way they are? >> And we do it right. We do it even if not by violence or physicality, right? A physical act. But we may hold on to that in our memories, in our resentment, in a desire to uh if not seeking revenge as you mentioned before, but really revel in your fall the other right the other person's fall when it's like I knew it. And I'm joking here, but it's it's really hard to to be the bigger person to >> to not focus on the eye for an eye or tooth for tooth, right? To to be able to to love and pray and wish well, especially those that we consider our enemies. And what we mean by that is anyone that is not supporting your ideology, your family, your your desires. Anybody that is against that selfcentered view of what what is life, what is the the world according to in this case Marcia or Peter. Uh but uh then anyone is potentially my enemy because anyone can be the other, right? The the one not >> Yeah. Go ahead. >> Argue that anybody that doesn't agree with our point of view. >> Yeah. >> Who, you know, we >> that that suddenly we have an excuse to hate them, which is >> Yeah. >> Just delusional. I mean it's it's just how does one describe >> the um >> the shortsightedness of that that point of view. >> Yeah. >> And I think it's the book Christian Agenda from Andre Louise that there's a line in there I really like that says what is it? Allow the other person to conceive the world as freely as you do. So, you know, part of what that means is yes, somebody may have a perspective that we really don't agree with and maybe it can upset us, but do we have to hate them for it? >> Yeah. >> I mean, really. >> Or would it be more productive to understand why that person thinks that way? Where are they really coming from? Are they 100% wrong?

but do we have to hate them for it? >> Yeah. >> I mean, really. >> Or would it be more productive to understand why that person thinks that way? Where are they really coming from? Are they 100% wrong? >> Yeah. um who says that we are 100% right? >> Yeah. >> We don't how how could we presume that? >> Yeah. >> So when Jesus talks about loving their our enemies, that's another way to think about it. I mean there's lots of ways to understand what he's saying there. And um you know I was thinking when a moment ago as you were talking, did you ever see the movie uh Pilion with Steve McQueen and Dustin Hoffman? >> Yes. as a as a long time ago. >> Be true. >> Um I mentioned it because I once saw I think it was a DVD version and so they had extra stuff at the end. >> Yes. >> And they had a short film about the making of it and they had the person who the story was based on a prisoner who was in Devil's Island and was trying to escape. very briefly. It's a movie about Steve McQueen is is a person who is sentenced to Devil's Island, which is off the coast of um Africa, I think, part of the French colony. >> And it's a very brutal place, and he keeps trying to escape, and he's very determined to do so. >> And I mention this because the person that the story was based on is interviewed in this extra documentary that's added on. And he said something I'll never forget. He said the purpose of prisons like this is for society to get revenge. >> So there was no pretense that if somebody goes to a jail, it's for them to answer. Yes. To answer for their crimes and maybe they'll learn a lesson or be reformed. No, it's to torture them >> as much as for as long as possible. >> Extricate, right, Peter? extricate the the power or control that person once had. Of course, uh usually we assume that the the person >> who goes to prison has inflicted some harm or has in um disobeyed whatever. But I I think it's it's quite interesting because um those individuals lose everything including their own

the the person >> who goes to prison has inflicted some harm or has in um disobeyed whatever. But I I think it's it's quite interesting because um those individuals lose everything including their own sense of self usually, right? >> Yes. Often. I mean, somebody who's locked up in solitary confinement. >> I mean, can you imagine what life in a supermax prison does to most people if you're not >> I would not survive. I can tell you. >> And there's, you know, should people be held accountable? Of course. So, >> but this is the difference between holding people accountable versus I'm going to punish you and you deserve to be punished. >> Yeah. >> A lot. >> Um, you know, does that make us any better? There's that old saying that sometimes the difference between the the um I mean I forgive me for saying this, but it's a comment that's been made like sometimes the difference between the prisoners and the guards is the rate of pay. >> That's assuming you're in a prison where the guards are truly mistreating the prisoners and they're >> ex, you know, flushing their power over over people like that. Obviously, not all prison guards are like that. I mean to suggest anything of the sort, but um but this need to or impulse I should say to get revenge. >> Not only can it just go on and on and on, but it traps us. >> Yes. >> So when we talk about the inability to forgive >> Yeah. >> Um are we perpetuating evil in that way? Um, one could make the argument the spirit's book, going back to that section I mentioned before, part three of the spirit's book, which talks about divine laws. I think one of the questions is if if I've been mis if I'm paraphrasing this a lot, but if if I've been mistreated >> and I feel the temptation to get even or carry out advice in return, you know, is that somehow justified or understandable? >> Yeah. >> And the answer is no. Of course not. It's it's um you know we have to rise above that impulse to just go after somebody who's caused harm. >> Yeah. >> Can I pivot a little bit if you don't

>> Yeah. >> And the answer is no. Of course not. It's it's um you know we have to rise above that impulse to just go after somebody who's caused harm. >> Yeah. >> Can I pivot a little bit if you don't mind because that's very interesting what you're bringing here. Um but uh if we switch a little bit Peter because um emotions right as we we mentioned self-awareness is what makes human humans but also the entire emotional landscape and uh um within that landscape we find uh emotions such as oh guilt or shame and and they those emotion play into how we perceive or even define what good or evil is. Right? So I I imagine here that they they play quite a significant role when we start to see maybe internal signals to to tell us, hey, something is wrong here. uh I there's some discretion of some sort or my moral compass is no longer pointing north but going elsewhere. So we need to to make a course correction. >> Right. >> But I'm I'm wondering if um guilt um may be triggering um when we feel that we have violated our own moral code, right? Or perhaps I intentionally or not, but I have harmed someone else. And and what do we do? Do do we seek uh forgiveness, redemption, >> correction, reparations or or we we we keep at bay as as guilt. But then there's also a question of shame, right? um which is um leading perhaps the sense of atonement right of uh of um I am ashamed because I'm now uh being judged I've been caught in the act and I've been judged by society by others and I I need to feel good again but I am now back to papon right? The idea of being socially rejected, condemned, imprisoned. So, it's very interesting how all of those emotions um they they come to the forefront of this discussion as well. >> Well, thank God we have a conscience. >> Yes. >> Because it's what helps us to evolve. >> Yeah. And guilt is one part of having a conscience. >> You know, guilt can be that wakeup call that gets us to think twice about >> something we've been doing or impulses that we have or whatever.

>> Yeah. And guilt is one part of having a conscience. >> You know, guilt can be that wakeup call that gets us to think twice about >> something we've been doing or impulses that we have or whatever. >> But here's a question. Are we expected to just remain in a state of guilt? >> No. >> No. What a waste, right? What a waste it would be. >> Guilt is is an emotion that if it gets us to wake up, wonderful. If it expands our consciousness, >> great. >> But it's also a passing emotion to the extent that if we really feel badly about something, then we will make the change and we won't repeat it. >> Yeah. Yeah. or if we do repeat it, we understand that we, you know, fell short and we try again not to repeat it. >> Absolutely. And and you were talking about consciousness, right? And uh maybe here Peter we can explore a little bit about uh the idea perhaps that evil is a construct of human consciousness or >> is it something that exists independent of who we are? What are your thoughts? Have you have you thought about it? Right. Um, I think that going back to the idea that we're born simple and ignorant, >> sure, >> when we're in that early primitive state, we're more animallike. >> And so, we have these impulses. We're quite capable of being compassionate, >> loving, kind. were also quite capable of being violent and deliberately abusive and so forth. >> Um, as we evolve, then we begin to um make different decisions about how aware we are what we're doing. >> Correct. >> Um, if you could repeat your question again. I I was just thinking this is flight to fancy for Marcia, right? because the the the notion perhaps and I I'd love to uh decode this notion with you because there may be no right or wrong answer by the way but the idea that is is evil a construct of our human consciousness or >> if not does it exist independent of ourselves our consciousness >> I think it's always been there. >> Yeah. >> And it's part of our nature. >> And actually, I could ask another question which I think is another way to

ist independent of ourselves our consciousness >> I think it's always been there. >> Yeah. >> And it's part of our nature. >> And actually, I could ask another question which I think is another way to explore this topic. >> As we evolve spiritually and we try to do what's good, are we supposed to eradicate evil? Is that realistic? >> It's a it's a very interesting uh perspective, right? because then it brings the idea just to answer right uh can we maybe even putting in in my words my simpler words can we as a society unlearn and I'm putting air quote here right unlearn um evil or even transform it over time into good and uh and I would say going back and maybe even repeating myself uh that would require a a deep sense of self transformation, personal growth and and change even on your mindset. So if you were to perhaps Peter think in terms of uh I don't know spiritual thinkers or philosophers or even uh some um some religious traditions they they do emphasize that right that possibility of redemption but uh how does it mean to us and do we believe that uh that evil can be eradicated? ated, right? And uh and uh we if we start to pepper the concept with ideas that are deeply contained for example in spiritism which includes free will or even the the role of suffering, how through suffering we actually grow or even another concept perhaps is the the idea of duality, right? where both good and evil are part of who we are. uh we start to to to get into a sense of no right evil can be just a temporary state >> that uh is exists with us but ultimately ultimately we need to to integrate right and um and I I love for example when you start talking about the concept brought forth by Jung uh for for around individuation or around integration of the shadow. Then we start to get into the core of this discussion which is uh some traditions where that they put starkly polarized evil, darkness, right? And and uh good as the light is the better etc. And they are irreconcile irreconcilable. They cannot live

ssion which is uh some traditions where that they put starkly polarized evil, darkness, right? And and uh good as the light is the better etc. And they are irreconcile irreconcilable. They cannot live together. And we know when we start to talk about shadow work, when we start to talk about uh individuation, the light comes or consciousness which you mentioned before, consciousness arises exactly from allowing us to peek inside, right? to just just just take a peek inside of ourselves and see whoop I don't know that this is really good of me. Let's explore that. Let's uh bring light into that shadow and uh and forgive myself but work with what I have today. >> You know I don't know that evil is outside of ourselves to go back what I understood in your question. Yeah, >> I do think it's part of who we are. >> However, >> yeah. >> Um, part of it is we learn to have a sense of balance so that we would not I I'll just put it in very simple terms. >> Uhhuh. >> Even though we may have the intelligence to figure out how to rob a bank, we wouldn't do it. >> Yes. you know, we just we have reached a point where we simply would not make those kinds of choices. There's lots of behaviors that we would very easily avoid doing even if we're quite capable of thinking through how we might do such a thing. Um, so there's that. And maybe when we evolve a great deal, you know, much more than where we are now. Um, I don't know even then if we've eradicated evil, but that doesn't mean it would it would play any part of our lives. I mean, when spiritism >> talks about a pure spirit, a more advanced spirits, presumably these are spirits that would never carry out an evil act. Certainly. >> Um, what about even just slight impulses of anger or or anything that might at a lower level lead to to evil? >> Yeah. I imagined that spirits that are much more evolved than we are don't don't feel that at all. >> But that mean evil is eradicated. Well, maybe maybe so. At our level, we're doing quite well just to find as much

d that spirits that are much more evolved than we are don't don't feel that at all. >> But that mean evil is eradicated. Well, maybe maybe so. At our level, we're doing quite well just to find as much balance as possible so that if we do have moments of anger, for instance, or somebody doesn't treat us well, we have a lot of ways of responding to that >> that don't immediately result in some kind of deliberately hostile callous act. >> Yeah. And and yet yet um this this discussion as it it it has followed us right uh as as we evolve for a long time and uh there is um Jonah D'Angelus brings the idea she references manism right so it's an ancient philosophy that uh uh really brings that concept of light versus darkness that duality that uh shapes the way that individuals will act. So in in that this concept um has shaped if you will um how everyone and and I'm saying this and I'm thinking to the con the the the what we already discussed which is guilt and shame right but in anyways um the that philosophy really uh framed structurally speaking how everyone lived because you you were subject to this constant um uh battle between those forces within you. And those uh who were followers of that um philosophy, they believed that either they would be in you know good or light or evil dark. their fear. You could not be bold. You had to to decide where you're going to be. And if they didn't, they would, you know, not get to the ultimate salvation that we all want. And it's very interesting because Peter, if you think about it, right, what what could we consider today as if we were Manikas, right? pay for those what we would consider as good as light and maybe we could think well uh if I am charitable if I am pure if I'm righteous person versus the evil or bad person who is greedy selfish violent etc >> and then oh Peter you gotta know that I'm all I I'm thinking Star Wars here, right? The the the Empire, right? The Jedi was light versus the Empire and this dualistic struggle between the two,

etc >> and then oh Peter you gotta know that I'm all I I'm thinking Star Wars here, right? The the the Empire, right? The Jedi was light versus the Empire and this dualistic struggle between the two, which could be a rather modern, right? Even though it was in the I believe in the 80s, late 70s, early 80s when the the trilogy first started. >> Um But they they they really brought that quite beautifully, cinematically so to all of us to to look at it and and and the struggle. Why the hero? Why the boy Luke, right? Why did he have to go against an entire empire and and win? And what are the uh mentors that will help this this boy to to fight? But it's just quite beautiful if you think about it as as as we discuss it. Let's take a moment to to think about it. What do we believe? Is it external? Is it internal? And if it's either uh if it's not either uh internal external but I if if it exists within us the the the the both sides the duality within us what does it mean and how can I perhaps forgive myself and as I just finish this thought process here I would like to perhaps pivot to Christianity right because Um, Christianity differs from many different religions or even philosophical traditions because it brings to us >> this beautiful transformative power of grace, right? And the idea that you can overcome evil. Evil as a as a as a matter of fact is something that's quite temporary. It's elusive e even right because God merciful God uh forgiving God will overcome evil and uh and then we we get to that the sense of external right Peter it was all about Adam and Eve right the the the first sin if they didn't I wouldn't be a sinner Which is again goes back to the whole discussion. Is it internal? Is it external? And if it's internal, can we live with those life that fail, that sins, that uh uh would uh not be as pure as we would like to to be. >> When I think of Adam and Eve, one of the questions I often ask is >> this so-called paradise. Yeah. >> Was it ever realistic to begin with? I

h uh would uh not be as pure as we would like to to be. >> When I think of Adam and Eve, one of the questions I often ask is >> this so-called paradise. Yeah. >> Was it ever realistic to begin with? I mean, was it sustainable to begin with? >> And I think the answer is no. >> Yeah. >> Um, going back to light and darkness, we do have both. I don't think it's either or. >> But at the same time, what is the natural state of things and what is sustainable? Light. >> Yeah. Light is capable of lasting in perpetuity. >> Yeah. >> And is it the state of things? Is it really light being covered by darkness? It's the absence of light. Or is darkness the natural state of things? I don't think darkness is the natural state of things because as you mentioned before, we do have free will. Yeah. >> And as our conscience develops, we are given this beautiful capacity to navigate our free will >> so that we can make choices. Is evil, inevitable, unavoidable, a permanent state of things? Why? Why does it have to be? >> Why does it have to be? That's a that's a good point, right? and and and uh our our lives just this linear narrative where right I I don't grow I am what I am and I don't grow >> because we choose to have that attitude >> now maybe we don't have as much consciousness as we will need but >> not yet not yet not yet but but that's that's the Not yet. >> Uh in the spiritism talk series, uh there was a recent episode which the United States Spiritist Federation does and Joel Cornold was talking about uh a a concept in spiritism that it stresses a lot which is the development of of intelligence versus the development of morality. And often our intelligence charges ahead >> of morality. Well, in some ways it's easier to develop our intelligence that it is our morality. >> Yes. >> Because as he was mentioning, as Joelle was mentioning, morality requires perseverance, a willingness to avoid certain impulses that maybe we're struggling with at the moment. so that hopefully, God willing,

as he was mentioning, as Joelle was mentioning, morality requires perseverance, a willingness to avoid certain impulses that maybe we're struggling with at the moment. so that hopefully, God willing, we get to a point where we don't have those impulses to engage in some kind of behavior that would be detrimental. And so, yeah, we have to use our will uh at times. Ideally, we get to a point later on where we just instinctively would not engage in certain behaviors that are that are harmful or destructive um in some way. Um, so part of what I'm trying to say here is when spiritism talks about the balance or the it's often not a balance but but trying to balance intelligence and morality when intelligence is way way ahead of morality that can be destabilizing and dangerous. >> Absolutely. After all, many >> psychopathic criminals out there who are very smart. >> Yeah. >> And so, um, evil unfortunately is is is perpetrated can be perpetrated by people who are very smart and very clever. Um but at the same time when Jesus on the cross says forgive them father they know not what they do that means a lot of things but one thing it could mean is those who are very smart who misuse the gifts that they have. >> Yeah. because they're they've either lack morality or they simply or they know the difference between right and wrong and they just simply don't care. >> Yeah. But it remember you you you mentioned a couple of times the tenant from spiritism that uh uh says that humans right uh mankind begins its journey toward uh that individuation and uh become a pure spirit. They begin simple and ignorant. And ignorant to me is just another word for unaware or you know as Jesus says they don't know what they're they're doing. They really uh they us right we don't know yet what we do but with our experiences we will. And I I wonder here I if if I could just take a moment to to talk a little bit about the idea that uh uh what we classify what we deem to be evil today in this moment in this

our experiences we will. And I I wonder here I if if I could just take a moment to to talk a little bit about the idea that uh uh what we classify what we deem to be evil today in this moment in this society uh on one hand may not be evil tomorrow but on the other hand may actually lead to a lot of growth or and and even spiritual awakening, right? So, it's important for us to to rethink even what we call it evil and uh and uh a lot of what we know as such is really based on cultural and societal norms, right? and and right so it's it's important for us to also take that into consideration what one society or or subgroup or or you know a a group of individuals for whatever uh reason that they are in this bubble as a as a solid group less and less and less of that right but they what one may see as good the other one may see as a terrible as evil And there are even drastic consequences of that. Uh so for example if I think about it Peter uh capital punishment >> right >> available and even seen as a good thing to stop a uh uh somebody who's a criminal, a serial killer, whatever whatever. But in many many many countries it is considered a cruel and immoral form of punishment. Right? I I could even call it a a a chapter in in the history of western society where uh through imperialism and and colonialism uh historically those countries and we're talking about uh um England, we talk about France, we're talk about uh Portugal and and Spain for example, they >> dominated they controlled other peoples and in their pursuit of uh colonializing if you will. >> Um part of their thinking was they were bringing civilization to that uh group of people that lived inhabited those countries that were considered primitive right the the natives of of those countries. So from one hand we have oh I'm civilizing you group that lives in in this island or whatever and for the group it is complete evil because they're coming a foreign race to completely uh destroy everything about them. And this is just one of uh or two

p that lives in in this island or whatever and for the group it is complete evil because they're coming a foreign race to completely uh destroy everything about them. And this is just one of uh or two examples and we could go on and on and on about that relative notion of what is and what is not. But I I think maybe we can um because I I see we're at the very end of our time and uh it's just beautiful how time flies when we're talking, right? But uh maybe we can close here with with that idea of what is and what is not good and evil. Is there an example um Peter that you like to bring before we close? >> Well, the idea that certain actions are carried out within a culture where it might be considered acceptable. Maybe this is something we can talk about more in the future because it's a complex subject. >> Yes. >> Um, >> generally speaking, is it ever okay to kill other people, especially if there's not an eminent threat? Um, so if one country decides to engage in behaviors that lead to people being slaughtered, is there some justification for that based on a cultural perspective? >> I would say not likely. Um, even if people think they're right in what they're doing. Mhm. >> Um, again, this is maybe something we could talk about more in the future, but >> Absolutely. But it's it's very um I think people can very easily delude themselves into thinking that they're right and therefore they are given permission to carry out behaviors that do lead to others being harmed. >> Yeah. >> Presumably because it's for their own good. Mhm. >> Well, how do the perpetrators really know that? And are they rationalizing what they're doing in the name of progress? >> Yeah. >> Um, it kind of goes back to that question of what is truly permissible in God's eyes. We can rationalize why we do certain things. which one group of people would say that's clearly evil and another group would say no it's okay it's >> totally acceptable yes totally acceptable >> you know might makes right if that's

rtain things. which one group of people would say that's clearly evil and another group would say no it's okay it's >> totally acceptable yes totally acceptable >> you know might makes right if that's what the argument is um but what is permissible under God's eyes you know when we go back to what it means to have a conscience what are the real consequences that we have to live with if we do cause harm to others, but we somehow believe it's for the betterment of humanity in the long run. Well, that again, it's hard to summarize that in just a few moments, but it's it gets um into a lot of murky areas in terms of how we might rationalize, the treatment of others uh either in the name of culture, in the name of progress, in the name of what we think humanity needs at this point to evolve and that sort of thing. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's important for us to to take our discussion today as just a guideline for reflections, self-reflections. What do I think? What do I feel? How do I treat myself and the others? And I just want to say um as we conclude here today, Peter, that uh as we've explored those concepts of good and evil, uh we start to see they're far from black and white, right? They are in fact deeply intertwined with our choices, our consciousness as you put it, our world around us, those norms that are are given to us that we inherited. But um perhaps the most powerful takeaway for me is that within this duality, there's always room for growth. There's always room for perhaps seeking understanding for transformation and that uh by embracing the ideas, the concepts of love, empathy, self-awareness, we all can indeed navigate the complexities of good and evil with perhaps a little bit more clarity and compassion And uh and maybe uh what we need to think about it here is that the journey from our mistakes, right? Because we all make mistakes, >> right, >> is to get to making better choices or less mistakes and maybe even Peter to to get to a sense that we can contribute to

the journey from our mistakes, right? Because we all make mistakes, >> right, >> is to get to making better choices or less mistakes and maybe even Peter to to get to a sense that we can contribute to the world becoming a better place for everyone. Well, from the perspective of being immortal spirits, >> yeah, >> I think you could say there's really no such thing as a permanent mistake. In other words, if we make a mistake, we're not condemned forever and ever as a result of that action. >> Yeah. >> There will be an opportunity >> for us to do better. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for that reminder. And I would say for everyone here, let's also remember that in the end, all said and done, it is really our actions when they're guided by a sense of wisdom and love that will truly define what is good. Right? It's our intentionality. It is our our uh desire for the goodness. And uh and I know it's it's hard to say goodbye, but we do we we did come to an end to our time together. And I just want to say to everyone um thank you. Thank you for joining us today. And I I do hope this conversation um has inspired you to reflect on your own journey. And I would say until next time, let's stay curious, let's stay kind, let us all seek light. For those of you who tuned in for the first time, um the psychology in spirituality weekly talks are based on the works by Joanna D'Angelus and we do hope to to be able to provide uh an opportunity to justapose concepts of spirituality and psychology and with that understand both a little bit better. I want to say thank you Peter very much for being here with us. >> I also want to thank our sponsors um the Mansandu Camino, >> the United States Spirits Federation, the International Spiritist Council and AMI Brazil, the Brazilian arm of the Medical Spiritist Association. We'll be back next week with a new episode. And until then, please take care and keep embracing this journey that is called humanity. Bye everyone. >> Bye-bye everybody.

Medical Spiritist Association. We'll be back next week with a new episode. And until then, please take care and keep embracing this journey that is called humanity. Bye everyone. >> Bye-bye everybody.