Ep 127 - Good, Evil and Everything In Between: Decoding the Duality pt 2

Hi everyone, welcome to the psychology and spirituality a bridge to a better life discussion. During our weekly episodes, we explore this intersection of spirituality and psychology and as a result we are able to capture some timeless wisdom contained in both fields. I want to say thank you for being with us today and thank you Peter for coming back because today we're gonna continue our discussion about the good, evil, and everything in between. My name is Marcia Trojano and as I said, Peter is back with me for a second episode on this conversation about the nature of good and evil. Um, Peter, last time we met, we discussed about uh oh, consciousness, the polarizing concepts of what is good, what is evil, uh, and um, how those concepts somehow have shaped uh, us as we are today, but also how they evolve through time, right? And I just wanted to to say, let's just go ahead and get started. Are you ready? Because I have several questions for you, Peter. >> Okay, I'm ready. >> Thank you, Marcia, for having me here. And thank you everyone for listening. It's a pleasure to be here. >> Awesome. That is so good. But, uh, Peter, we we define what's good and what's evil. We we we discussed, we made references to books and movies, uh, etc. But um today I was just wondering maybe we can talk a little bit about how often perhaps what seems to be evil at a given moment and we're we can go back to the dawn of humanity or you know in historically speaking we can jump from I don't know 5,000 years ago to 2,000 years ago to 500 years ago to 50 years ago And with each leap with time, we can see that uh the notion of what we society speaking um consider evil may actually not be considered evil anymore. And uh beyond that, Peter, they those acts may actually lead to some good, some personal growth or even spiritual awakening. And um on additional, you know, not on a flip side, but on additional note is uh if we think about that uh if we if we think that we're all good, right? We're we're practicing uh

spiritual awakening. And um on additional, you know, not on a flip side, but on additional note is uh if we think about that uh if we if we think that we're all good, right? We're we're practicing uh good people and sometimes uh what we do those deeds may not be as straightforward as we may think they are. Right? And and so when we think about it, refraining from doing evil, it's not enough. And you mentioned this last time, right? uh it's it's all about this active pursuit of being better, being good and achieving that inner balance. So Peter, my question is uh can we talk about uh perhaps how cultural and society norms have played a quite significant role in shaping our understanding of good and evil, right? And and those are what's acceptable or not in terms of behaviors or values uh or even how one culture, one society, one nation may consider something good versus another that sees that as absolute evil. Uh be you know maybe depending on their traditional beliefs or even their historical experience. Can you talk a little bit about maybe some of those examples and and how it may shake us our understanding of uh this discussion about good and evil? Let's uh pick one, right? Maybe I'll I'll I'll bring it to one. Capital punishment. What What are your thoughts on that? Well, um there are certainly many, uh periods in history and different cultures where capital punishment was considered perfectly normal. >> Um you know, going back hundreds, if not thousands of years, some of the oldest civilizations on record, uh there were very strict rules about >> what was and what was not okay. And um I think probably the underlying assumption was that capital punishment was necessary to really send a message that yes >> if you cross this line this is what's going to happen and sometimes the approach taken could be quite cruel. Torture might be involved. >> Yeah. uh you know the guillotine for instance that was invented in France in the uh 1700s not long before the reign of terror

mes the approach taken could be quite cruel. Torture might be involved. >> Yeah. uh you know the guillotine for instance that was invented in France in the uh 1700s not long before the reign of terror occurred where it was yeah >> used extensively. It was invented in part to be a quote more humane way of decapitation. So before that of course um it took longer. I don't want to go into the details of it, but uh you get my point. >> I I do I do it. The the the visual image is ingrained in my mind by now, but I see what you're saying, right? Uh uh guillotine, a what I consider extreme cruel uh form of punishment was actually at some point considered a more humane >> relative to to Yes. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um you know if we focus on I mean there's so many examples from history one could focus on but if we focus on the reign of terror for instance. >> Yes. >> The those who perpetrated it certainly at the time thought they were quite justified. You know there was so much inequality and injustice and anger >> at the system of monarchy and divine right monarchy. >> Yeah. that um you know the feeling was these people absolutely deserve this kind of fate. >> And um and sometimes people get whipped up into such a frenzy that they just they they get right involved in that. It's like Jesus on the cross, you know, in in I think it's Luke, Jesus says, "Forgive them, Father. They know not what they do." Was it not another example of where a crowd was whipped up into a frenzy about, you know, crucify him, he's a threat? Did these same people feel this way a few days before, a few weeks before? It's an interesting question. It is the the the ideas that uh visual imagery that comes to my mind is um when when we talk about crucification, I immediately go to uh the the you know recently released Gladi Gladiator 2, which the whole concept of uh people killing till they die in an arena full of individuals, right? just rooting and the the the pure uh drama of life and death between animals and and people people

2, which the whole concept of uh people killing till they die in an arena full of individuals, right? just rooting and the the the pure uh drama of life and death between animals and and people people and people whatever. But uh that which was a very dark chapter of our history >> somehow it it stays right Peter it it it stays and as it evolves it becomes less evil but still as we keep evolving we we we go back to see what were you thinking. Um I know there has been a a strong movement against for example rodeos or the bull fights right um and and to me we keep evolving at some point and this is no judgment everyone u but I'm just thinking out loud here uh at some point as we look into say um a a field or or an arena of sorts with two teams playing rugby or or football uh or even other less aggressive types of sports where um you know the the life of those players may be quote unquote sentenced to a lot of pain and concussion and etc etc etc yet we don't think about it in the moment we we see as pure entertainment but I yeah go ahead Um, you know, I was just thinking about ancient Rome. You mentioned the gladiators where that type of uh sport, again, I think many people who certainly those who attended it saw absolutely nothing wrong with it. If somebody died, somebody died. You know, there was just part of the >> the value system for for uh u perhaps a large segment of the population at that time. you know, things that nowadays we would look at and go, you know, this is horrifying. >> Yes. >> You know, even today, I I I forget where I heard about this recently. I think it's starting to become popular, like certain types of boxing matches where there's less protection and and really uh the >> no hold back, right? No hold back. just just >> don't hold back. Just hope for it. Inflict pain, you know, and if somebody gets seriously hurt, well, that's just part of >> part of the sport. So, >> it does have an attraction for people. Um, >> yeah, >> I remember uh >> long time ago when I was a kid, I went

d if somebody gets seriously hurt, well, that's just part of >> part of the sport. So, >> it does have an attraction for people. Um, >> yeah, >> I remember uh >> long time ago when I was a kid, I went and saw uh a wrestling match. It was one of those fake wrestlings, you know, that was on TV. Yeah. >> So, um, >> highly curated and choreographed, right? >> Very choreographed. But the thing that was really revealing to see it in person was how involved the audience got. >> Interesting. >> For instance, there's, you know, the good guy is slamming the bad guy's head into the turnbuckle over and over and over again, and people were just cheering it like mad. um violence, which again, you know, is an act of evil. We could say, "This is horrible. How can this be allowed?" But, you know, people get very involved in these things. Um I remember watching a play on Broadway. I'm sorry, I don't remember the name now, but it was kind of in the style of theater called the Grand Granle. Have you heard of the Grand Granle? >> Yes. >> Okay. So for those who are not familiar, the grand granule was a type of theater that it started in France in the 19th century, like the later part of the 19th century. And they plays themselves were not that great, but the purpose was to portray extreme acts of violence often. And this is kind of a a a drawing from the Jacobian tradition which was more from the 1600s u and even in Shakespeare's day but like in the 1600s after Shakespeare uh there were a lot of plays in the jackabian style that were pretty violent >> and the grand gol was you know in that kind of tradition. So anyway, I was watching this play on Broadway and there's a scene where this person is being, I think, tortured and there was blood all over the place. They really, you know, went for it, so to speak. People were laughing. >> Yes. >> And the thing that was fascinating was that the playwright had clearly tapped into something there that was being brought out in the audience as far as

t, so to speak. People were laughing. >> Yes. >> And the thing that was fascinating was that the playwright had clearly tapped into something there that was being brought out in the audience as far as how people react to these things. Um again objectively you know most of us would say this is bad this is >> you know this is violence is not acceptable etc. And yet people are very attracted to violence. >> Yes. >> And there is a there's a topic there for for us to talk right. Why why are we attracted? Is this something that uh uh we carry on with our um you know part of our collective unconscious or is it part of ouristic heritage as a a term that Joanna the likes to use it a lot right we carry on from uh past existences etc etc um but I wanted to to maybe um ask you some thoughts on on a different example of that duality or difference in values. Um and and here I'm just talking about some things such as religious practices, right? As uh if you think about it, we collectively speaking evolved from even human sacrifice in some cases to animal sacrifices and those were seen as sacred, very sacred rituals. And um if you look at it especially I if you you think in terms of the movement of pea right for the protection of animal rights and all of that um right such similar sacred as it was once upon a time scene those moments are vile they are evil they're unethical right and and so it's very interesting to me the whole idea of how relative a judgment on what's good and what's evil is. But I I just thought that maybe we can talk a little bit about uh how from a religious perspective we we may we may discuss uh similar uh issues with good and evil. Um I remember well uh for instance in the the Old Testament the Hebrew Bible which talks about you know the prophets generally speaking what were the prophets warning about? Well, the pro the time of the prophets um Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, all the the minor prophets um uh let's see, Hosea, Joel, uh and many others. I don't have them all by name by

arning about? Well, the pro the time of the prophets um Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, all the the minor prophets um uh let's see, Hosea, Joel, uh and many others. I don't have them all by name by memory, but >> Well, I'm very impressed. Anyway, um during the time that the they were doing their ministry from roughly the 800s BC up until the 500 BC more or less >> u during this is when the northern kingdom of Israel still existed, the southern kingdom of Judea, which were what was left of the 12 tribes of Israel and the descendants of of David and Solomon and so forth. And the Bible talks about this not only through the prophets, the books of the prophets, but also first and 2 Kings, 1 and 2 Chronicles, it's all that history. And put very simply, what they were constantly trying to warn the kings about is you're breaking the covenant with God. You're following Baal, who was a fertility god. And we over and over again, especially in books like Kings 1 and two, this king came along and that person did evil in the sight of the Lord. Sometimes one of them might do good, but many of them did evil. >> And what was evil? Well, um, speaking of sacrifice, uh, sometimes child sacrifice, >> sometimes, uh, sex with prostitutes in temple prostitutes, uh, just worshiping idols in general, um, breaking the covenant with God. You can imagine these societies were probably quite corrupt and unjust much of the time. And so the prophets are warning again and again and again if you don't stop you're going to pay the price and there will be consequences to this. And later when the kingdom of Israel was overrun by 722 BC uh the northern kingdom and then later the southern kingdom of Judea was overrun by the the uh Babylonians. the Assyrians invaded Israel in the north and then a century and a half or so later the uh southern kingdom of Judea was overrun by the Babylonians and it was understood that this happened because they essentially these were transgressions against God. their behavior over the centuries of um

outhern kingdom of Judea was overrun by the Babylonians and it was understood that this happened because they essentially these were transgressions against God. their behavior over the centuries of um uh doing religious types of practices which were considered evil, bad. Um and and yet I think probably many people thought it was perfectly fine and perfectly normal. Um why would you if you know Baal was a god of fertility? So sex yes is about spreading of the seed but also child sacrifice was considered uh an appeasement to ba and so forth things that you know we would today go oh >> what I know what are you doing here >> that you know probably we don't know anything about who the children were this >> yes >> we don't know first of all how prevalent it really was I guess there's some evidence this sort of thing happened. >> Uh whether it was played up or not and exaggerated, I I can't say. >> But um >> but even so, if that sort of thing was going on, uh maybe it's also a reflection of the attitude about you know, most many babies died anyways and small children didn't live very long. So there was an attitude of expendability, so to speak. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the child mortality uh >> child mortality and I mention all this because I think one way to pull all this together is that idea >> that our fellow human beings are expendable which is again a very dark thought to have. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But you know let's face it I mean not only is our history full of it but we still see plenty of signs of that today. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And and to me the one word that really stuck to me and thank you for for sharing because uh most of us really don't know how fascinating that period was, right? the the the the time um of uh the the 12 tribes and how it historically how it evolved and uh all all of those uh items that you can really see chronicled in the Bible, the Old Testament, but uh not many people really read the Old Testament uh despite being consider themselves Christian. But

h all all of those uh items that you can really see chronicled in the Bible, the Old Testament, but uh not many people really read the Old Testament uh despite being consider themselves Christian. But anyways, that's not what I'm talk I want to talk about. I want to talk about the one word Peter that you brought to us which is really to me stuck struck a chord which is normal right yes the rel it's relative right there is no absolutes of good or bad we got this Marcy and Peter we got this but then we also have that idea that within each context or each time period or even each value or practice etc. There is a sense of normalization right at some point whatever you consider good or bad or whatever uh within this context a brief period of time or longer period of time it is considered normal it's considered acceptable therefore there are no triggers uh in terms of your moral compass to say hey stop because this is this is really not good. And we we talk about we can talk forever, right? The nature of uh I don't know addictions, the nature of uh um the impact of uh we we talked last time a lot about anger, right? or or even um just this this uh uh resentment and holding on to grudges as a as a human conditions unlike animals for example. But then we we we can talk about uh um how how is normal how is something that uh deep inside we know it's not the best way to to live because it causes pain to me to you to whomever um but we still do it because it is acceptable. Um I know that recently uh a a lot of people I haven't watched but a lot of people have told me I must watch this series on I think it's been streamed by Netflix uh on adolescence and bullying and and cyber bullying and when did this become okay? has it become okay to to um bully somebody else, right? And uh I haven't seen I'm not sure that I'm ready to to see uh uh that uh that series, but it's something that has a lot of people are saying that is a must for everybody at least for those who are parents of

haven't seen I'm not sure that I'm ready to to see uh uh that uh that series, but it's something that has a lot of people are saying that is a must for everybody at least for those who are parents of teenagers. Right. But maybe we can talk a little bit about it because we we're we're discussing um normalization. But um Peter, what do you think are um you know the nature of that duality that exists within us good and evil uh and as part of our human psyche. How can we use that uh those concepts that duality that exists within us? But how do you think we can perhaps embrace in our journey toward self-realization and even enlightenment? What am I talking about? I I'm thinking um how hard is it to reconcile with the idea of evil, right, with the concept of a benevolent universe, a higher power, our creator god. And we we can we can you know reference from a um religious thought process of uh the divine justice. But it is so hard for so many people to think of how can God be all powerful, all good, right? uh and still so many people um having to deal with pain and suffering and so much quote unquote evil. What are your thoughts? >> Well, uh what I was hearing in in your last question is we have evil of course in humanity. is the question how could God allow this to happen? >> Yeah. How do do we reconcile our minds right that uh that uh there is such a thing as a as an all powerful benevolent force? You can call it God. You can call it whatever. But how do we reconcile that with so much suffering? >> Hence the word so much evil. Well, I tend to think of it with a challenging question. >> Is it up to God to come in and save humanity from humanity's misuse of its free will? In other words, sometimes if people become atheists, they might say, you know, if if there is a god, how could we have, you know, any number of horrific events in history of slaughter and all kinds of devastation and so forth. Um, but the question again one could ask is if God were to come in and save us

could we have, you know, any number of horrific events in history of slaughter and all kinds of devastation and so forth. Um, but the question again one could ask is if God were to come in and save us every time we're about to do something like that, >> do we work? I know this is a very provocative thing to say, but um is it up should God be protecting us from our worst behavior or should we learn not to engage in this kind of behavior in the first place? And if that's true, and I believe most of us think it is, how do we get there? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Do we have to go through in order to say no, that's not the solution? you know, my fellow human being really does matter. And if I have a lot of anger and rage at the world, there are other ways to handle that rather than, you know, lash out at someone or >> Yeah. >> back to capital punishment. If it's a symbolic, not symbolic, but if it's personification of revenge, you know, supposedly one feels like, you know, justice has been done when somebody who's guilty is is executed. >> Yeah. >> Uh that kind of thing. >> Yeah. And and and it goes back to the idea of divine justice, right? Uh we we discussed and I remember we talked about the movie Papon and the prison and how atrocious it is uh even the mere thought about the prison system and and all that it goes right. Is it uh is it a an opportunity uh to to get to redemption or reinstatement to society? Mostly not right. mostly unfortunately mostly not >> um >> there's no to there's no pretense of trying to reform >> the prisoners in that particular environment >> they're just >> being made to suffer >> but when we we go back to the idea of divine justice as you mentioned >> um in and you're specifically talking about if I all everything I do I I am saved by God uh for whatever you know I don't know maybe I'm really good at praying and God comes and boom he or she or it rescues me and what does it what does it do well I don't learn as you mentioned I I have no sense of accountability

I don't know maybe I'm really good at praying and God comes and boom he or she or it rescues me and what does it what does it do well I don't learn as you mentioned I I have no sense of accountability therefore I will not make any corrections so uh that leads us to this idea as you brought it up free will right that the free will um is the freedom, right? The freedom to choose and act upon whatever you want to do. But uh if in the misuse of my freedom, I cause pain and suffering to myself and to others, I should be accountable to learn not to do it at a minimum to learn not to do it anymore. But from that perspective, um the evil is not created or even eradicated or erased by that higher power, but it's really just plainly simply said the result of my decisions, my um inaccurate or or better judgment uh to to act on my thoughts. So it's really um a a question of freedom and moral agency, right? How do we start to embed in our consciousness the idea of this is the right thing to do? I think I remember last time we talked you you you brought up a great example. Uh I we probably can rob a bank, right? We all have the equipment, the wherewith without to do it. But do we do it? No. Because it is embedded in our consciousness. That's not a right thing to do. Um so we don't. And and I I'm thinking that's the same thing, right? the uh freedom and more agency instead of being uh contra to each other they're actually complementaryary to each other as we evolve as immortal spirits and I'm I'm thinking now Peter that um in fact some spiritual traditions including Christianity including Buddhism including spiritism they suggest that suffering, right? There is a purpose, there is a result in the role of uh suffering in our lives that leads to uh opportunities for growth, opportunities for learning, opportunities for spiritual development and that uh uh on one hand um going through some pain and suffering may lead you and me, anyone out here to to start to have a deeper understanding of what the pain is like

s for spiritual development and that uh uh on one hand um going through some pain and suffering may lead you and me, anyone out here to to start to have a deeper understanding of what the pain is like so that I now start to exercise I don't know emotional intelligence compassion empathy and benevolence docsility etc etc so it's almost this challenge that uh um the more I suffer the more I become resilient and wise and good. What are your thoughts of of that uh um paradox? >> Well, the paradox with suffering is that it can teach us. It is important not to confuse this understanding as somehow being an apologist for suffering or >> Right. Right. or you know because sometimes people might think especially perhaps with Christianity u forgive me for saying this but sometimes there may be this assumption that you know there's an emphasis on suffering as if it's some kind of masochistic pursuit >> and there's evidence in history right of self doesn't work yeah >> it doesn't work but that's not the point when we suffer from something, it can be a wakeup call, you know. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> There's many ways one could think about that. I mean, if one likes to be a perpetrator of violence, >> how do they feel if they're the recipient of that violence? You know, if you >> It's one thing if you want to hit somebody, but suppose somebody hits you back, >> it hurts. >> Yeah. >> Uh it might make you think twice about that. Um or another example could be, you know, we may have talked about this in the past, but somebody who's an alcoholic, for instance, who has to >> uh is addicted and they really have to hit rock bottom. You know, maybe they >> lost their family, they've lost their job, they've lost their livelihood, everything >> and they finally realize, you know, I've paid a horrible price. Well, that of course is tempering. Um, unfortunately when people are rebellious, unwilling to change, not willing to to get the wakeup call, not willing to listen, they may have to go through a lot of suffering

of course is tempering. Um, unfortunately when people are rebellious, unwilling to change, not willing to to get the wakeup call, not willing to listen, they may have to go through a lot of suffering before they finally do wake up. Now, once they do wake up, suppose the same alcoholic recovers and they then go on to lead a life in a direction that's a lot more positive than where they were before. Then the suffering served a purpose you know. >> Yeah. And uh it's uh it's good to remember uh that there are certain philosophies especially eastern phil you know eastern traditions such as oh Hinduism, Buddhism and they tells us they suggest that evil >> and suffering both are temporary illusions that they are part of our human experience but ultimately they are to be transcended. So it's very interesting for us to to be reminded that according to those traditions that once we human beings right individuals start to to to learn and grow and reach a higher level of spiritual awareness. We start to be able to go beyond the illusions >> of good and evil. >> Right. >> Right. Which is awesome. Uh let me just finish here because I think it's just awesome. We've been talking for two weeks about good and evil. Just to be reminded that at some point we as we evolve all of us will be able to recognize Peter the interconnectedness of all of us the oneness in this universe which means this discussion is futile. I'm just kidding. This is not a futile discussion but it's an interesting way to think about it. At some point uh all of this construct will disappear. They are irrelevant right for all of us. >> Yes. I mean uh you know you mentioned uh Eastern religions the dami pada one of the central sacred scriptures of of Hindu or Buddhism >> stresses a great deal how our attachment to things >> Yeah. Can first of all we can overcome it and second the way the more we stay attached could be anger, we could be attached to sensuality, it could be attached to the material and any number of things

Yeah. Can first of all we can overcome it and second the way the more we stay attached could be anger, we could be attached to sensuality, it could be attached to the material and any number of things >> emotional as well as physical attachments. All of that creates unhappiness and in order to free ourselves of that we have to be able to learn how to release these things. >> Yeah. Um, and by detachment in that sense, it's not numbing yourself or becoming indifferent, but it's not trying to hang on to something that is, as you said, is an illusion to begin with. >> I love that. >> Yeah, there's something that um, uh, Jonah Angela says that I and she peppers that that concept in many of her books, >> but it's one thing that I find it the most amazing. uh concept which is we are destined to infinite happiness. How about that? >> Yes. It's interesting that in her book the conscious being she actually mentions the concept samsara uh from uh Hinduism and and Buddhism if I'm not mistaken but the cycle of birth and uh death and rebirth that we keep you know because this is certainly one of the things that spiritism shares in common with the eastern religions is uh in terms of reincarnation but we will keep going through that cycle of of uh death and rebirth, the samsara, if you will, uh until we start to learn to evolve beyond uh attachments that are often attached to things that are delusions to begin with. >> Yeah. I I always remember um always remember a training that I went through. uh Peter that was about attachment. >> Mhm. >> And uh we were asked to write down in pieces of paper the most precious things >> Mhm. >> that we have and but it was quite a extensive list. So, usually uh people would start with and I'm just kidding here, but as an example, oh my purse, I really like my purse. So, my my coat, my house, my dog. So, you start to move away from things to beans, right? My dog, my husband, my children, and and all the way to belief systems. >> And we did that. It was quite

urse. So, my my coat, my house, my dog. So, you start to move away from things to beans, right? My dog, my husband, my children, and and all the way to belief systems. >> And we did that. It was quite interesting, long and we discussed this and that >> and then the exercise was >> to have to throw something in a proverbial fire, right? The fire comes. What goes first? And >> easy. The purse, right? >> Oh, I love the purse, but it goes. But it was very interesting because it really it was a class on um death and dying, right? And how hard it is. But what was the experience that we all of the attendees had was the fact that whenever it got to the closest to you, your your family members and beyond that, right, your belief systems, it gets so hard to the point that like I know this is this is an exercise, but it's very hard >> to say no to what you believe what is sacred quote unquote sacred to you. >> But uh so I appreciate you you bringing that up the fact that uh attachments can can liberate or being free of attachments can be the ultimate liberation from the ideas right that we have. Those attachments can be many things. You know, if we talk about >> violence, for instance, and good evil. >> Yeah. >> If we're attached to an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth >> or if we just cling, >> you know, rather drastically to any belief system. >> Yeah. >> Because that not suggests that there's a greater illusion there that we need to release ourselves of. >> Yeah. I'd like to maybe end our conversation today talking a little bit about uh we talked a lot last time by the way but just bringing um the concept that uh Jesus uh brought to us right which is uh the notion that you can overcome evil with goodness right which is quite frankly um quite difficult for us to to accept because it challenges our traditional notions of our dual nature, right? That we can only be one or the other. We cannot be both. and uh and he Jesus the man that came and stayed with us briefly 2,000 years ago but he brought that idea

al notions of our dual nature, right? That we can only be one or the other. We cannot be both. and uh and he Jesus the man that came and stayed with us briefly 2,000 years ago but he brought that idea and and uh and he suggested indeed that uh uh if you are in the battle whatever that may be to to uh destroy evil aren't you evil yourself right uh so I don't know if you want to give us uh a your final words on on that idea before we close. What are your thoughts? >> Well, if one's approach to trying to destroy or eradicate evil is to be violent, oppressive, etc. Then you know that could be an example where one is evil one's one one is also being evil in the name of trying to eradicate you know >> so it becomes uh >> counterproductive >> you know I was thinking as you were just talking I think it makes perfect sense that Jesus forgave Judas for betraying him >> yes >> you know Judas uh did he commit an evil act by selling Jesus out. Yes, it was bad. But did Jesus know he was going to do it? Absolutely. He says during the last supper to Judas, "Go do what you you've come here to do." >> Yeah, >> he knew exactly what Judas was going to do. Uh and yet he still forgave Judas, I would think. you know, we don't I guess know absolutely, but it makes no sense if Jesus did not forgive Judas. >> Yeah. >> And um so going back to what you were I think raising about uh if if it's all about getting revenge and you know, we they did they hurt us so we're going to hurt them back. They hit us, we're gonna hit them back. That just goes on and on and on and on and on. >> It's a it's a cycle, right? That it can be uh almost infinite. I I I keep thinking again of uh uh Shakespeare and and uh Rome uh Romeo and Juliet, right? Uh, and there's this this thing that keeps growing, feeds on itself instead, tribal warfares, all that stuff. Kind of >> we're right, they're wrong. We're going to get them. You know, >> we're enemies, right? We can we can there is no room for for love. And and I keep thinking, Peter, that forgiveness

stuff. Kind of >> we're right, they're wrong. We're going to get them. You know, >> we're enemies, right? We can we can there is no room for for love. And and I keep thinking, Peter, that forgiveness is it's a response to evil, right? That brought to us in in Christianity. It's it's quite central to to Jesus teaching, but it's quite powerful >> to the ability to break that cycle of, you know, harming the other versus healing the other, right? And and and I I find it quite interesting the the discussion on even psychologically speaking how forgiveness can lead to emotional health, >> right? where if you don't you hold on to anger, resentment and uh as doing that you you perpetuate the suffering and you relive that suffering. Whereas by forgiven you are freeing yourself from the cycle of all those negative emotions and be able to to take flight from the situation. It takes a lot of courage and a lot of spiritual strength >> to see compassion >> and forgiveness as signs of strength and spiritual progress >> and not as a sign of weakness. >> Yeah. >> Sometimes when people want to keep perpetrating violence, it's the assumption that, oh, if I'm going to be compassionate, that means I'm weak. >> Means I don't have the guts to stand up to them. Yeah. >> We have to make so and so accountable. Well, yes, we all do need to take personal responsibility. We do need to be held accountable. But how? There's all kinds of ways that all of us can be held accountable that it doesn't have to resort to, you know, some act of revenge. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Or, you know, we're going to suffer, suffer, suffer in order to answer for things we've done in the past. Yeah. And uh I just want to say because we are at time again, it seems that we can continue to to to talk for for a long time. Peter, I just want to say thank you. And uh like last last episode, we we discussed right these uh concepts and we come to the conclusion that at a minimum they're really far from being a absolute notions or a black

ant to say thank you. And uh like last last episode, we we discussed right these uh concepts and we come to the conclusion that at a minimum they're really far from being a absolute notions or a black and white type of definition. And uh if we if we think about it the uh specifically that duality of good and evil in political or cultural conflicts um they're actually quite com quite simple instead of a complex right it's really when we put oh you are evil I'm good or vice versa you you put whatever is the the conflict was born from in a very simplistic way and and it's it's harder at that point to then understand all the nuances not only of the situation but of the this emotional landscape that binds us all. Right? So in in order to >> to get to a very simplistic easy dual way to see the conflict uh we end up with polarizing dehumanizing and achieving a certain moral absolutism and that actually feeds the conflict in itself. Uh so it's it's really important in in my opinion here Peter that we we become quite good to be able to move beyond that binary lens or that polar lens of a conflict and be able to start perhaps acknowledging the complexity of human motivations, human values. use a human contact circumstances so that we can start to get to a more empathetic >> and forgiving dialogue or peaceful resolutions, right? And I do believe there is definitely definitely a place for forgiveness in understanding the so-called evil or um um feeling of pain that somebody or yourself inflicted. Right? So it's it's how we can forgive uh we can break that that cycle, right? And uh we also with forgiveness then we're able to achieve a sense of redemption and a sense of growth, a sense of transformation. And uh at the end of the day, that's all we're here for. This this achieving our sense of balance or peace and happiness, right? So, Peter, I just want to say thank you. Uh, I I really appreciate all of you who are here with us today and I hope this conversation has supported some of your

balance or peace and happiness, right? So, Peter, I just want to say thank you. Uh, I I really appreciate all of you who are here with us today and I hope this conversation has supported some of your own hypotheses, right? Uh, or at a minimum inspired you to reflect upon the the the topic of the day. Until next time, I just wish you to stay curious, stay kind, stay forgiving. And for those of you who are joining the psychology and spirituality weekly talks for the first time, please note that they're based on the works by Joanna D'Angelus. And uh we we really appreciate you. We appreciate you, Peter. And we appreciate our sponsors, Nelinium, the United States Spiritist Federation, the International Spiritist Council of Brazil, which is the Brazilian arm of the Medical Spiritist Association. Thank you so much everyone. See you next time. >> Thank you everyone. See you next time.