Ep 45 - Gratitude amid Loss

hello everyone welcome to the psychology and spirituality a bridge to a better life discussion I'm your host Mercia trano and with me are Dr anay fona and J corn good hi everyone if and if this is the first time you're watching this uh podcast like program please note that uh the psychology and spirituality are weekly talks and are based in when on the works by Joan and deangeles and they're here to offer you and us a safe space so that we can compare confront correlate and most likely expand our spirituality Concepts from a psychological lens and uh also bringing some uh perhaps some insights actionable tips and even real world advice to help all of us lead a better life we're here today to discuss the ideas of um going through some challenging times um times of conflict of war or even just a personal loss and the other uh part of it which is the idea of gratitude right as we go through them and I really look forward to hear from you Dr fona and you Jada so that perhaps we can break down those topics and discuss um the the symbolism that are that is found in certain myths and what they teach us about loss about gratitude but before we start our conversation I would like to take a moment moment and recognize the organizations that are sponsoring this program um Brazil the TV mans C the international spiritist Council and the United States spir is Federation and make sure you hit subscribe if you haven't done so already love to hear from you if you have any questions feedback comments please write in the chat window and we'll address them later on but uh so I'm here and I started to to just uh peruse through this really interesting book the psychology of gratitude which is the last book in the psychology collection by join d'angeles and uh it's it's it's good to understand that it was F sorry first published in 2011 and the English translation I believe was uh published in two years later in 2013 and Joanna invites us to to to look into all of our moments good and bad whatever and look at those

published in 2011 and the English translation I believe was uh published in two years later in 2013 and Joanna invites us to to to look into all of our moments good and bad whatever and look at those and really exercise gratitude right and and she she offers us this idea that once we do that um we will live um happier and more peaceful life so the problem why we're talking about gratitude the problem is that we do live lives that are not easy right uh uh our our times are times of violence and even cruelty on one hand or perhaps indifference on the other so let's talk a little bit about uh this rule the Gratitude brings are you okay with me maybe read a little part of how she starts the book is that okay yes please so first of all she begins with and a just real uh uh short paragraph allegories have always been part of the collective unconscious of society during difficult times in h history so I always thought right here right how did we do that and of course Joanna goes on to say it was through through them those allegories as well as fairy tales and folklore that it became possible to present logical explanations for the complexities of phenomena in life whose circumstances make the letter acceptable for the scope of myths encompasses all questions related to human beings love it so she goes on to talk about the myth of peras and uh it's super interesting and uh I I'd like to to to bring to you this myth and I and I wrote it here right uh pus was the son of Dan and forgive me for Mis mispronouncing the Greek names right Dan who was a human being an Earthly being and uh of Zeus the God of Olympus and an Oracle prophecy to Dan that uh the her father right the king AC chrus that his grandson would kill him oh what to do this is the drummer of life right my own grandchild is going to kill me what to do so he interesting enough puts them in the box and into the sea and of course Zeus being a god manipulate somehow controls the waters and the winds in so that the mother and uh the child get to this new

o he interesting enough puts them in the box and into the sea and of course Zeus being a god manipulate somehow controls the waters and the winds in so that the mother and uh the child get to this new island and they grow up and uh it was uh later on that everything starts to hit because um a as a grown man perses is uh is trying to to protect his mother from the King of the island that they start to live that he apparently uh Dan was quite amazing right because everybody liked her so the king wanted her and B was like what to do what to do and to help the mother he he goes into the adventure and a long story short he's supposed to uh bring the head of Medusa and he brings back and it's a lot of information here so a lot of symbolism that both J and and anay will talk about it but it is all about uh doing going through all of those um efforts to protect and what I'd like to bring here perhaps is the fact that regardless uh prus became right King but he was so humble and grateful that to the end of his life he never really pursued to be more than what he was right and uh and and Joanna talks to us that he pursues was really victorious she says at the end of the entire Saga of their lives because he discovered the psychological significance of his own existence and in in this case his mission for was to save his mother and to go and conquer all the enemies to persevere no matter what was happening to him to persevere and recognize his own vulnerability when he confronted all those existential problems and his persistence is what moved him to the path to individuation right because all of those items that he encountered were there and they were allegories of the ego in the shadow ah so much in just a minute or two but I wanted to to ask you can we talk about this myth and and and how do we reconcile this idea of uh perhaps um perus and his Mo and his mother would live a life of oh we've been we've been um exiled to this island and nothing is good and instead he the boy pcil grew to be uh somebody that had

of uh perhaps um perus and his Mo and his mother would live a life of oh we've been we've been um exiled to this island and nothing is good and instead he the boy pcil grew to be uh somebody that had all that it took to continue his mission in life what are your thoughts wow it's a lot right it's a lot yeah okay so uh we are talking here also because pursues to save his mother from from the King right had one of the things that the King asks so is to so that pers brings the head of one of the Gorgons correct Medusa so he has to kill Medusa to protect the mother uh and of course in the story that everyone can go and read further um some of the Gods because he's King uh his sorry son of Zeus so um some of the Gods help uh help um pursu in this achievement to try to face uh Medusa so there are many many symbolism and just um it's important that we um you know can think about the symbolisms that are in myths and legends and Fs as a way of our higher self our higher Consciousness um Sending message and um uh bringing to to the ego uh stories and and um thoughts we could say that must be active perceptions that must be active for the let's say the work that the ego is supposed to be doing you talked about individuation right Mar so our purpose according to Yung and of course then Joanna is going to expand this concept because she says that yung's self capital S is the spirit our spirit that it's in the in the depths of our psych and the the depths of our unconscious so the individuation as you said um becoming whole in this life doing uh realizing and um executing if you could say doing um our personal myth discovering which is our personal personal myth uh in a sense that what am I supposed to be doing for my soul and my spirit in this life and putting together everything that uh all the pieces I say uh of ourselves all our complexes our experiences memories uh in a way that it's a whole that we can understand ourselves uh as um being a spiritual being in you know Evol Evol evolving in

ieces I say uh of ourselves all our complexes our experiences memories uh in a way that it's a whole that we can understand ourselves uh as um being a spiritual being in you know Evol Evol evolving in in development not only of our personalities but also uh evolving in a sense of our spirit having this experience here in this life and learning with it and exercising whatever um the spirit decided that he would he or she or it would like uh to be doing experiencing and learning in this life so it is a pro a process of growth and I think CH It's a Wonderful myth that is talking talking about a solar hero mean a hero that develop develops this Consciousness this brother Consciousness and finds as you said his purpose in life okay uh he didn't want to kill anyone but his Janna reminds us that he is known as the destructor yes yeah yeah of course because it's so symbolic we have to destroy some some things in our lives uh for instance some ways of thinking that um and of perceiving and feeling things that uh can get in the way of our development of our psychic and Spiritual Development so if and the ego many times because it has issues with something that uh the ego feels at um it is threatening it the ego so it going to the ego is going to protect itself uh the self-image the way that I think I am that I understand myself and if for instance um you know aggressiveness because we are talking about destroying things like pers uh he's going to kill the grandfather he has to kill the Medusa he has to go against uh the king that is threatening his mother's life and all of this uh so okay but to face this uh I'm talking about in a way aggressive aggressiveness uh okay and okay but I don't want to be aggressive and I say I'm not I'm I'm peaceful I want to be kind to everyone and I really do want to be kind to everyone but everybody has uh because it's a Instinct that we have have to deal with we are in a flesh and blood body and we have to deal with our instincts and and so on and so forth so

to be kind to everyone but everybody has uh because it's a Instinct that we have have to deal with we are in a flesh and blood body and we have to deal with our instincts and and so on and so forth so um how do I do that if I repress my aggressiveness and I say that I'm not that I I don't harm anyone I don't harm myself because I'm very peaceful I have to love myself I have to love my neighbor so I I don't have any aggressiveness okay but I do have so when this drive comes from any situation that life asks for us and uh I have to protect myself what am I going to do the ego repressed and send back to the unconscious yeah okay denies many times or project to other an enemy or whatever uh so what happens that I'm not dealing actually with my aggressiveness and not even integrating or even transforming or even using it in my control in a sense that it helps my growth that I'm not going to be aggressive to anyone but I have to acknowledge that I have this impulse there is an information there uh that I have to deal with so if if persus would say no I have no aggression I'm not to get I'm not getting a thinness sword and I'm not going to kill uh you know the Garen so many things wouldn't have wouldn't have had happened in his story so I think we could should start uh here how do we make you know the what you calls our shadow a complex that it's mainly unconscious but can be parts of it can be conscious so how is my you know my shadow grows how it it it's structured because the ego is trying to protect uh you know the self image and I think we should start and okay what do we do to be you know like pers to face our fears our uh everything that the ego doesn't feel as virtue you know our bad instincts because this is a classification that the ego does for instance well um if I protect myself and I don't look at it so pus is a solar he goes through a lot of sacrifice to fulfill his you know his personal myth and to grow and to face his fears and uh his questions his conflicts inner

myself and I don't look at it so pus is a solar he goes through a lot of sacrifice to fulfill his you know his personal myth and to grow and to face his fears and uh his questions his conflicts inner conflicts uh so every step of the way we are achieving when we do that we are achieving a higher Consciousness but I want to hear justan about that there are so many things popping up in my mind right now first of hi hello everyone it's so good to to be here again with you and I mean to be able to participate in this fascinating discussion and this topic and for starters I I I would like to say that the more I study Joan deangeles the more I I I I if it is possible at all I feel I feel love for her and admiration and um one thing that came to came to my mind was you know remembering one of the statements that we have from Jesus that I did not come to destroy the law which was clear to say that by him uh expending on our understanding and knowledge of um of God and our relationship with uh the universe and all the creation our brothers and sisters he was was not dismissing everything that was builded before especially uh from him his own Heritage that was the the Hebrews I was thinking that Jan and the angelist did the same you know she comes here and and she she brings this transcendental psychology uh but it's still utilizing uh What uh you know ordinary psychology utilizes uh using the myths still for us to to to get there not only in the the knowledge of ourselves as one life one being but the knowledge of ourselves as Immortal beings pertaining and connecting to everyone and everything so when she brings that into terms of the myth and um and leads us to think about I I think especially for an that it's you know the psychiatrist here the doctor that it makes it so much richer right uh I'm here for instance in trying to think about the the symbolism of the the gifts that were giv to persel so that could fight Medusa like for instance attina that gave him him the Mir M mirrored um

uh I'm here for instance in trying to think about the the symbolism of the the gifts that were giv to persel so that could fight Medusa like for instance attina that gave him him the Mir M mirrored um Shield right yeah it is like you know you have to look at yourself and when you look at yourself uh and you see what you are really truly maybe that is the moment that you have to condemn to death that old self that old self ego yeah the ego that you represent and being reborn to the self and and so I um I think that from from this perspective analyzing also from the pursu point of view and how she describes him as being a selfless being because like it says here in the iology of gratitude that he he went on to return to his mom and to free his mother from the the king that to to kill Medusa but at the same time he couldn't deal with the urge of along the way liberating others and in the sense even his future wife Andromeda right so he he he he he could at that moment say I have what I need I have what uh it was required of me just to deal with my loved one that is my mother right and and and be there close in his inner circle of the the relatives but then he he was seeing along the along his path so many people that were in need of his assistance and that he had the me means to help and he did and of course he prolonged his return but he couldn't be blind to the fact to the price of the needs so I think it's it it's so beautiful so many things that we can learn from from this passage and from where he he he he came I mean U his you know Divine at the same time he's divine um Heritage at the same time that he has the human Heritage but has all these emotions but uh I think Joanna also talks about uh uh in in this myth specifically this allegory right that uh uh for pus he triumphs in and and she keeps using um conquering uh triumphant so there's the sense of over overcoming those uh that we could call punishments right uh or those tasks that he was required to do or chose to do but she

nd she keeps using um conquering uh triumphant so there's the sense of over overcoming those uh that we could call punishments right uh or those tasks that he was required to do or chose to do but she says because he did all through love and he did it all with a sense of gratitude that only comes out with his own emotional maturity I I love what she says about perses I I became a fan of perses through Joanna because it's a often right often we and we all suffer the entire population of the planet has some pain point and we all have a something that pushes us to to to have a moment of suffering and so we could all be victims of the suffering or we could look like Peres uh of course it's fiction here but look and and arm ourselves with tools and uh with uh uh imagination and overcome with with joy with gratitude with humility those are the thoughts that came to my mind as I was reading this uh this book today so um I'm listening to you and think of everything that Joanna asks us to reflect p and um we were talk we are talking about the hero myth so the development of Consciousness and a higher Consciousness because then the solar hero is that the one that brings a higher conscious like like Jesus like just told us that shows shows shows us the way to this path of uh you know EV evolution of our spirits and going back back to to the unity and to the Transcendent that is God right um in a sense that uh our Spirits uh grow and have to um de develop this higher Consciousness but I wanted to also remind you all that the so we were talking about the all the symbolism and why Joanna brings this and so many symbols in this story because the symbols are ways uh that images stories and and um issues that comes from deep within as I was telling you and show us archetypal stories ancient stories that uh we all have to face uh in this um in this evolutionary path so one of the things when we talk about the gods of course Greek gods they are a way in the mythology of expressing this archetypes right this ancient

e to face uh in this um in this evolutionary path so one of the things when we talk about the gods of course Greek gods they are a way in the mythology of expressing this archetypes right this ancient stories that we all have to deal with and just to remind everyone that um I just chose some symbols because we have um for instance hers that gave his sandals you know the ones that Wings he's the god with sandals that have wings and he was the messenger uh um between uh humankind and the gods in ancient Egypt um so what does that mean why Ms gives uh every all so we were talking that the gods wanted to help um um persus so some Gods gave gave them some gifts like hers so why is that because because we need agility uh to go in this work as Janna J is saying she always says let's study self-reflection Let's uh be brave to face our shadows right because the path and and you know the manifestation of the kingdom is not outside of us it's inside of us the work this Kingdom of peace that Jesus was telling us of Love unconditional love peace fraternity and all the virtues uh it has to be manifested uh within us not outside of us outside of us is a consequence as when Humanity grows together right so this agility that we need in this inner work is represented in her sandals with the wings he flies this in that way okay and makes this communication and we can think of the Greek gods for instance as archetypes ancient forms of of course information that comes from our spirit the self the higher self the or the young self capital S and as Janna says our spirit so we need arms we need uh a way of uh having this information of the our egos come calming down in a sense maturing she talks a lot about maturity also in psychology of gratitude um so that we can listen we can uh you know relate to our symbols inner symbols that come through our dreams to our uh personal mythology to the synchronicities that help happen in our lives so that we can better do this job that Janna calls us

relate to our symbols inner symbols that come through our dreams to our uh personal mythology to the synchronicities that help happen in our lives so that we can better do this job that Janna calls us to uh to work that is self-discovery that is the inner work of the Soul so we have her sandals and we have as J was giving spoilers I'm just kidding about the Athena Shield right that it works as a mirror the mirror has because it was so polished right that would reflect image why because AA knew remember she is the goddess she is also a daughter of Zeus but she is a goddess and she is the daughter of Zeus that was is was born from his head so she is she is the goddess of law for instance of the city of civilization and so she knows it's a lot of symbolism I love of course is Janna guiding us right so Athena as being the goddess of law civilization knows that to deal with our what it's um Basic Instinct in forance as a aggressiveness uh you know to deal with our inner conflicts everything that threatens the ego and everything that it's uh like uh still basic in ourselves we could say or evil okay everything that Medusa represents in this story we are looking to the shadow uh we cannot face directly we have to reflect as you said upon it a lot but if we Face directly okay we can after many many years of some kind of meditation uh going reading and going through you know the spir is knowledge or Psychotherapy analysis everything together then maybe we are mature enough and to look to face ourselves because it's our yeah but Athena knew that it this is very difficult for a poor ego okay as like persus in the beginning of the story before he kills me so of course he has she gave her her Shield that it's like works like a mirror because you could not face Medusa eye to eye because then you would be petrified so uh looking at it from a psychological point of view and also a s of course symbolic point of view we are talking that I was thinking and reading again uh for our talk here Joanna that

be petrified so uh looking at it from a psychological point of view and also a s of course symbolic point of view we are talking that I was thinking and reading again uh for our talk here Joanna that first in Psychotherapy that it's one of the therapies that we we Psy psychologist and Psychiatry um do that um it's many many time many you know the the inner time that the person the chyos not konos that our EG are going to have need to reflect upon um our conflicts inner conflicts uh and everything that ego considers bad or evil within ourselves elves so this symbology is that uh persus how can he spoiler alert how can he um uh kill Medusa okay with the sword because aena also gave the sword and he cuts Medusa's head because he doesn't look directly to her he looks through the shield so it's saying and he had to be very aggressive in that moment you know the Basic Instinct to be able to and very brave to be able to to kill Medusa so I'm I'm thinking that like in Psychotherapy or even uh when we are reading Joanna's books for instance that we are doing this job of self-reflect uh reflection that uh we are not looking J is helping us not to look directly of to you know for instance to something that gave me a lot of rage that made me feel really angry with someone because if I think of that looking straight to the eyes of my inner Medusa I will feel the rage all over again and I will be like Yung says uh my complex will constellate it will you know it will not help my process of self-reflection so I have to use a mirror I have to use an author like Janna I have to read first I have to reflect I have to you know to develop my inner strength to be able to face my shadow and that's so wonderful and I have to use my sword my inner sword that it does only dissipate a Medusa's head uh so kills what um and transforms right because killing in this sense is transformation of something that I feel as bad within myself but also is discernment like Jesus uses right to S A discernment of what it's bad or what it

nsforms right because killing in this sense is transformation of something that I feel as bad within myself but also is discernment like Jesus uses right to S A discernment of what it's bad or what it needs work within myself and what it's okay because it's already light that I have within myself so I think it's all this um symbolism is in the story but it's we are not through yet but I would love to hear you guys about this um process of self-reflection of being afraid of looking straight to our inner Medusa and of the sword as J said the discernment the separation of what's good and and bad yeah I want to advocate in favor of Medusa here let's do it because you know I I think uh as always we we rush to judge and uh we believe sometimes the fake news right so there was a whole manipulation or a manipulative perception that was bringing was brought to us uh in portraying her only as a villain and uh very much like in the Disney production of the two movies that were released in 2014 and 2019 about Maleficent where we just knew her as being the one that has cursed Princess Aurora and all that um uh it it it brings her us back in time to see what has released her Shadow her you know Dark Side Dark Side into place so why did it did she become here that way and in the Medusa story we see that she was um sexually assaulted by posidon in the temple of atina and atina was not happy with that and she was the one that made this beautiful uh Maiden Medusa into this horrible figure that represents you know and and uh represents the feminine rage and that is us it up to this day I think even as a manipulation uh and those atavic con concept that we have in relation to women women is uh is the one uh woman is the one responsible before the original scene is the one that brings lust to man is the one that can be you know as evil and getting to a rage like Medusa and so the there is so much image manipulation and that not um invites us to have a Compassionate Heart in relation to the

man is the one that can be you know as evil and getting to a rage like Medusa and so the there is so much image manipulation and that not um invites us to have a Compassionate Heart in relation to the whole story to understanding everything so not to excuse what what she was doing after because of the curse by who by the way was very generous writing giving gifts the one that she could have done that herself right you know with serpents and so she said oh no but now I'm going to help you also to cut her uh you know her head off right so uh it's so fascinating when we think about all that and and how you know something I remember being very young and I was always in love with Greek mythology and uh little did I know that one day I would look at Greek mythology completely different and each time more growing due to the uh understanding uh or the the deafness of you know the understanding that we can get with Joanna the Angeles that like we said before go even beyond what we can have in our schools here because um our Scholars as genius and and laudable as they they were renowned as they were you know equipped to do this as as they were could not getting to the point where she did and and so I I think in in a way in the same way in the same manner that we look at pursues and we try to look about about his inner emotions and selflessness and um lack of material interest when he was you know the one entitled to to be the king once his grandfather died in in an accident so to say with Athena sh right um also Medusa being a victim how you know she uh allowed herself to be to transform into that that being that would just send coldness and no more have any kind of empathy towards others and that what was they were you know kind of petrified by the coldness and the horror so yeah I I I I I think it's very important that we are talking about this and thinking about own behaviors uh how are we behaving ourselves because Since U we know that we're going through so many struggles

I I I I I think it's very important that we are talking about this and thinking about own behaviors uh how are we behaving ourselves because Since U we know that we're going through so many struggles and um our planet is going through so many things that it would be so much easier for us to you know to have a reaction as uh you know there is nothing I can do I I just going to shut myself uh out to from the world and um and um as retribution I I I I'll give my cats cough you know what things or we could be the ones like pursues that we say regardless of what is going on and my personal interest that is you know go there and save my my own blood that is my mother I cannot sh just shut my eyes and not do anything so I think we we also can can think about it in our behaviors are and and in our um daytoday lives and uh position ourselves as one or the other is going light is going to Prevail or we are going to let Shadow uh dominate us but I love your empathetic view of even the so-called she's known as the monster Medusa and Medusa in Artis history is depicted in so many beautiful paintings outside of the Greek uh sculptures uh or um U depictions of Medusa you you seen so many different paintings and it's always of that horror as you said just as as the embodiment of Rage regardless of that the empathetic view of those of us because in all of us I think at some point there was a little Medusa right somebody that felt perhaps wronged by Poseidon and then atina and in in being wronged you become rage you are rage you are a monster so the question here is how do we reconcile perhaps that idea of good and bad the good in us as a victim the good in us as the Destroyer as you said pursues pursues was the known to be the Destroyer right the the killer the the the protector how do we reconcile in US those both of those attributes that we carry perhaps right yeah I think we are talking about acceptance and also we can go and that's what I think it's wonderful with Joanna uh we we keep uh she keeps opening doors

those attributes that we carry perhaps right yeah I think we are talking about acceptance and also we can go and that's what I think it's wonderful with Joanna uh we we keep uh she keeps opening doors for us you know to explore and giving us uh instruments if we could say uh enable enabling us uh to you know in this inner Voyage discovering ourselves and for instance I was listening to J and it came to my mind that persus give Medusa's have to Athena and Athena puts in the shield so her Shield has Medusa hat hat in yes so we are talking here about integration acceptance integration balance between for instance masculine and feminine the forces I'm talking about the archetypes not gender people archetypes so and how and this integration how can work together to the development of the being that's wonderful so even if a okay is jealous of posum with Medusa and she's a feminine that supposedly uh and that's what's uh interesting in uh Greek mythology because since they reflect archetypes and the archetypes always have the positive and the negative within them Maron that you were ask because we are still in a in a Duo Dimension okay so we are going to experience and learn what's positive because of we learn what's negative we learn What's um and that's the beauty of the U you know the Transcendent one that God gives us uh this many lives and experiences so that we can evolve and learn so uh we can think of Athens and Medusa as J was saying who is the good feminine and the bad feminine it's all mixed up you know both of them have the good and evil have attitudes that are good and attitudes that are evil so what we're trying to do and I think many many of us and I think humankind in in on the it's on the verge of this new development of Consciousness because our spirituality is evolving we are understanding better ourselves okay there is many much shadow in the world we are still some Wars pop here and there but a lot of people is a way um know people are Awakening to this uh that we are Spirit

rstanding better ourselves okay there is many much shadow in the world we are still some Wars pop here and there but a lot of people is a way um know people are Awakening to this uh that we are Spirit beings as spir is knowledge um tells us 150 years more even uh is bringing to us this you know better understanding of Jesus uh teachings and the gospel so I wanted to finish my talking reminding that when persus cuts um the medusas had the blood that in blood is Life okay so the blood that comes from Medusa's hat um creates and gives birth to Pegasus so it's the winged White Horse that represents our virtues the virtues of the soul that enable us to travel to through the mysteries of the spirit I think this is oh it's super super amazing just any any final thoughts as we I was going to say about that uh uh an that also about the symbolism of you know the death of what represents the evil the the Shadows that we we give ourselves to and once you eliminate that in this case you know they say she she got pregnant by the relation sexual relation with posum and by at by dying she gives birth to pagus and also to Cur which has a human figure but he has a golden sword so uh and with they think about it uh also being pregnant and um and having had the child when she was in you know in this um emotional state that represents the Medusa and everyone she look at that would be petrified she wouldn't be able to look at her children yeah so I I mean and I think here we see you know the the the polarity between Good and Evil and when we in terms to bring life forth we have really to eliminate the the dark yeah so I think just so beautiful it's so so much more than we can expect just by reading the allegory right yes so I love this i' love to hear both of you today the and Joanna of course when she brought to us her account of uh the allegory of pursues but I think uh I feel much uh more empowered to to look into those stories with those uh with a knife for those additional symbolism and and what does it say about

ccount of uh the allegory of pursues but I think uh I feel much uh more empowered to to look into those stories with those uh with a knife for those additional symbolism and and what does it say about me when I am suffering or when I am going through some rage what what are the consequences of our a rage but with that I want to say uh I will see you next time and I appreciate everybody who's here in this conversation with us and goodbye goodbye bye