Ep 17 - Psychology & Spirituality | The Pursuit of Happiness

foreign welcome to the psychology and the spirituality a bridge to a better life discussion I'm your host Marcia trezado and here with me is my co-host josada korngode josada is a Secretary General of the international spiritus Council and former president in current Vice President of the United States spiritus Federation for the best 30 years just out of corn goat has been volunteering as a counselor in fraternal conversations in several spiritist institutions thank you so much for joining us today the psychology and spirituality program is sponsored by several organizations such as Ami Brazil the United States spiritus Federation and the international spiritist Council make sure you hit subscribe if you haven't already done so and if you'd like to check out more information please come to the www.spiritus.us channel if today's topic of interest for you would like to recommend several books that are based on this topic and I'm going to show them now uh please see those three books they're lovely books find peace and health wake up and be happy and the conscious being if you want to acquire those books you can go to layout publisher spiritus books at www.lialpublisher.com the other um sites that you see here also have books that you may be interested as well but thank you thank you for this and I would like to say hello to you Sarah and welcome to this conversation hello Mercy I'm so happy to be here today again and happiness is the topic of our conversation so let's make it happen right hello everyone and uh it's good to be back and it's good to to know that you are here with us and we have been receiving a wonderful feedback and and generous um a comments so uh keep on tuning in our uh episodes awesome thank you thank you so much but if you're here and you tuned into today's episode the pursuit of happiness you may come with the first question of the day is happiness why is it important to discuss it and I thought you said that you with your role in your role as the

day's episode the pursuit of happiness you may come with the first question of the day is happiness why is it important to discuss it and I thought you said that you with your role in your role as the vice president of the United States spiritus Federation you may want to talk a little bit about happiness in the context of the US of a how about that yes absolutely uh you know because uh when we are talking about happiness life liberty and the pursuit of happiness and we we know that this is one of the most famous phrases in the United States Declaration of Independence and one of the most influential sentences in the history of the English language so we can say that this statement of the necessity of Happiness was formally introduced in 1776 by Thomas Jefferson when hip pain the Declaration of Independence we hold these truth to be self-evident that all men are created equal that um they are endowed by their creator with certain analyable um rights that among these are life liberty and the pursue of happiness it is beautiful isn't it yeah this is beautiful beautiful and I think it's important for us to as we see we talk today in the next uh several minutes about happiness to see how important it is and and we're thinking in in the language of our sacred selves but this is real this is here this is now it's a completely embedded in the history of the country that we both reside in but but that I I think it's important to understand that the concept of Happiness goes far in a way and there's a there's a breadth of discussions that we can touch today so I would like to do this I just said if you don't mind and I would like to to start perhaps uh going through the idea that um the definition right of what uh um happiness is the reference about it in itself we can find in Proverbs so in Proverbs we can see that happy is the man who finds wisdom and the man who gains understanding so I just think it's very very nice to to put that as the base the Baseline for what we're

Proverbs so in Proverbs we can see that happy is the man who finds wisdom and the man who gains understanding so I just think it's very very nice to to put that as the base the Baseline for what we're thinking about happiness on one hand the Declaration of Independence on the other hand we we get all the way from Proverbs the idea of happiness in man we what do we need to to attain happiness but as I mentioned before we we dabbled here and there in the various books by Joanna DeAngelis and specifically if you look into one of them I believe it was the the conscious being she she you know she starts by letting us know that the meaning of life is centered on the search for and in finding of Happiness so I think this is very important for us right just that we talked about this many many times where it's not just the the trivial oh today we're going to talk about this that no this is at the center it's the Cornerstone of what we are is our Pursuit of Happiness and I believe this is considered one of the most frequent existential challenges of all times this is what plagues us we want to be happy so tell us a little bit uh just sort of from what you know about uh happiness how does it differ perhaps based on who you are your gender uh where you're from what is some additional components for that idea of saying I am happy yeah it's interesting Marshall because Marcia because as you said um there are so many angles that we can analyze happiness according to our understanding of Life about how we were brought up about our belief is for instance when we are talking about the Buddhist teachings what is the ultimate happiness is only achieved when we overcome craving in all forms which I mean we will find common places in terms of the definition of happiness in several philosophies religions when they they invite us to you know to be courageous enough to go inside of you know of us knowing the self thinking about something that is Grand used then then just what we have and the

s religions when they they invite us to you know to be courageous enough to go inside of you know of us knowing the self thinking about something that is Grand used then then just what we have and the materials effects of life and even when we are talking about the material specs of Life happens will be completely different from from you know my point of view then your point of you're not completely different they say but in many points even if you think about something very simple you know uh choosing a fruit of your preference yeah the fruit that may be the fruit of your preference may be exactly the one that I I can't not be it at all and that I I really don't don't like it and this is going to be uh you know what a happy event if I have to consume this route by any chance so and according to our maturity and here we are not just talking about spiritual maturity which is obvious but also about our physical you know development so what represents happiness for a child you know feeling safe in the house will hold with you know parents uh and people around them not necessarily is going to be the same and of course we know it's not going to be the same when we become adults uh in terms of um other uh philosophies and even you know in terms of spiritism that we we talk about as well is uh the understanding of this kind of progress understanding what we are here and um this is is this kind of you know broadening our perspective is actually what brings us happiness especially when we are thinking about the laws of Love at once one thing for us to think about the laws of love and one which is a very unhappy situation thinking that they are lost from us for forever you know and another thing is when I think that no they're they're just in a different dimension and soon enough we are going to be together and we'll have the opportunity of having new experiences together it's it's absolutely critical for us right how how we deal with with those losses as well so thanks for bringing

going to be together and we'll have the opportunity of having new experiences together it's it's absolutely critical for us right how how we deal with with those losses as well so thanks for bringing that up I I think um also uh if you put from a material perspective josada it's uh interesting for us to think that um that happiness is considered the central Focus as I mentioned before for what we want to achieve in life yet it is so elusive right can we say everybody in the plan is happy no not at all we are all pursuing it but very few of us are able to say I'm happy and and from that cultural and we talked about Buddhism we talked about uh other types of religions Christianity Etc we we have definitions but it's it just had it's really important for us to acknowledge it is hard to achieve the goal of becoming happy and often often we confuse the idea of I am happy right with the idea of experiencing pleasure whatever that is so it is uh misconstrued mischaracterized and Joanna DeAngelis as the source of our study today says it is the reason why most of us become frustrated and tormented when we cannot find happiness when we do everything we think is right meaning all the material types of things that we illusory things that we think are the source of Happiness so also just before I go back to you uh it's important for us to think that there is a cultural element for example as you said a child adult but also if I am raised in a certain family uh with a certain type of discipline or a certain type of ethnic cultural background my ideals for happiness will vastly differ from somebody from a different place a different background so from that perspective the idea of Happiness the vision if you will of what it is to be happy is somehow perceived to be distorted simply because it's defined so differently it is relative it's not absolute as we know it so when um we we have it all there it's like called the soup of definitions of Happiness we have another dimension which is it's really a western

erently it is relative it's not absolute as we know it so when um we we have it all there it's like called the soup of definitions of Happiness we have another dimension which is it's really a western definition of happiness and it's relatively new the idea that we also we all must be happy in order to be happy we must demonstrate a sense of comfort and happiness that if we don't we we are failing so from that perspective it's important for us here as we're talking about this topic to understand that uh unlike what the media right social media or larger uh different types of media Outlets define happiness if you're not happy it does not mean there is something wrong with you this is a wrong conclusion and it is important for us to to start this conversation with this notion it's okay not to be okay it's okay not to be happy because happiness is a Continuum and I think you're going to talk a little bit more about those those types of happiness and and ranges of Consciousness right and immaturity so I wanted to to get back to you an opportunity to talk more but I was thinking uh what in your mind what are the components that will lead us to be happy yeah I'll get there because you I mean you you mentioned so many interesting things and one of them while you were talking was uh you know I was thinking about the Persona and all this that you said that you know we have to present ourselves in a certain ways so it's uh we go with uh the fake two you make it yes but the thing is sometimes we we are so used to fake it right this Persona that uh that we do not realize that behind this person oh now I have to present myself like this I have to be like this there is happiness because I I I have a concept of happiness that doesn't necessarily translate into happiness and maybe there and I'm not paying attention to it because we take for granted so many things right when uh Jesus just said happiness is not of this world it's something that I see so many people commenting about it uh just saying oh

g attention to it because we take for granted so many things right when uh Jesus just said happiness is not of this world it's something that I see so many people commenting about it uh just saying oh you know don't expect to be happy because happiness is not of this world this is not what Jesus was was trying to tell us especially because he came here exactly to lead us to a path of Happiness correct peace and so saying is not of this world meaning is not of the things made in this world and for that I would like to refer to question 922 from the book The Spirits book and then he asks the question for the spirits and it's their common standard of happiness for all this question is amazing and the answer is brilliant and the first reply for material existence it is the possession of all that is necessary so the common standard of happiness in terms of material existence the material aspect of life we will say that it's possessing possessing but here the spirit says it Is possessing what is necessary because since we are material beings we do need need material things to correct for us so into for happiness in terms of material existence is the possession of what is necessary and for the moral life it is a good conscience in faith in the future we talk it so much about you know that in other episodes and are going to be talking about it again how much you know peace of mind us knowing that we are trying to you know to to be righteous right uh and then not expecting others to do the work we have to do the work uh ourselves right and be safe in the future that goes along what we said before in terms of uh you know having faith in the future having faith that if I couldn't reach this goal now it doesn't mean that tomorrow 10 years from now 20 years from now 500 years from now all right distance is after this one so this is this is it it's it I think it brings Joy it brings happiness to us but then again it's a matter of us being willing to open our minds to this idea to all

ll right distance is after this one so this is this is it it's it I think it brings Joy it brings happiness to us but then again it's a matter of us being willing to open our minds to this idea to all this spirituality I was recently watching an interview that young gave to a journalist and there's when the journalist asks him you know this bright man that possesses so many so much wisdom and knowledge in different areas and aspects of life and when he asks him about his belief in God he says yes but he at the end the the journalist says but even now even should they like saying you know now that you are so smart so much 84 years old you still be living it and he says it's not a matter of believing I know so if we allow you know this inner voice inside of us to Manifest this I know I know I'm an immortal being I know I'm I'm you know just starting this journey I think this is going to increase to improve so much the level of happiness that we we will feel and this is what it's all about you know happiness it starts inside of us I thank you thank you this is awesome and uh for those who may not have caught josada uh the interview was with Carl Gustav young right the the very famous uh psychoanalyst and Joanna DeAngelis books are mostly Union in terms of psychology so very very uh good for for you just started to bring that interview to us I to to say something maybe um here back to the material right question 922 we uh Arlo cardek asked and we are giving the idea there is a moral happiness and there is a material happiness perhaps and I want to give a little bit of a slant which I alluded to earlier in our conversation which is the idea that uh we somehow dream that happiness is and dream is it's really a dream in terms of an illusion of how we are brought up and this is the majority of us so we dream of this oh it everything is Rosy meaning I don't have any problems right oh everything is so wonderful I have all the comfort that life can can bring you to us which is

the majority of us so we dream of this oh it everything is Rosy meaning I don't have any problems right oh everything is so wonderful I have all the comfort that life can can bring you to us which is the material possessions and then of course there's a third component is I want to rest I want to be idle I want to not work and I want to be powerful however power is Define in a given time in context and uh and we really really understand I think it goes back to what Buddha said right if we only enjoy our sense of well-being and if he only have a sense of gratitude for what we have all of these things that we think that are important are no longer they did they crumble down into the definition of Happiness correct and the first thing is to know that the the the rich the wealthy the powerful um they may have the life of what I just said all right with the power with comfort with the time but it does not mean they are happy in in I would even say in many many cases uh we may see individuals that attain all of it quite bored quite uh uninspired uh and um let's say maybe I may have happy moments that are attached to a material possession right but uh you and I know this we we end up going very fast into wow I got the car I remember as a young woman when I got my first car oh I'm so happy I got the scar of my dreams Etc but we know within two months we don't even think about it anymore all right so it really tells us that it's nice to get whatever that you're pursuing but they are not the trigger for you to be happy right thank you Marcia there is a study that says that in the U.S force for example uh they have studied that have measured happiness and it has not increases significantly since at least 1947 this massive increases in wealth and income and we are talking pause pause a second world war yes and and they show the the the the how little actually you know the increasing in in technology and uh and wealth and income has not uh had an effect effect in terms of these studies for the uh for

yes and and they show the the the the how little actually you know the increasing in in technology and uh and wealth and income has not uh had an effect effect in terms of these studies for the uh for the from that we can find in the positive psychologists they have been asking what it actually makes people happy and they say money love and health only affect our level of Happiness by up to 10 percent so the other 90 percent is not in money loving health that's that's very important for us to think about it right yeah do that I'm just paying attention on the 10 I don't value the 90 like we said I said before we take for granted uh when we say especially if you're talking to young people sometimes we say oh you're complaining uh about let's say a headache thank God you have a head right um don't come with that but yes this is something that we have to to acknowledge you know the possibility the physical possibilities that we have you know family even sometimes they say oh but I have a dysfunctional family okay but just you but you have a family and there are so many people that would like to have one and don't have and would trade their position with you you know uh just to have a loving member next to them uh because we know you know we may have this struggle or yeah problems with family members but it's still if asked if we would like them to be removed from my life I think in the middle cases we would say now it's not that that I'm talking about right so I think uh like you were saying and bringing all this you know background that we have all the possibilities that we have we really have to start paying more attention to this Noble yes sentiment that is gratitude yeah yeah yeah so so we can see as you as you as you talk here that uh happiness really has to do with who we really are deep within right so that the the need for authenticity right and uh and not what we the Persona right what we want people to consider me to be so uh it's very interesting when we when we

e really are deep within right so that the the need for authenticity right and uh and not what we the Persona right what we want people to consider me to be so uh it's very interesting when we when we talk about the difference between me Marcia and the Marcia that I I desperately faking until I make it I've tried to be there is a Delta and a lot of time our sense of happiness has to do with the how uh the Delta between what I want to be and what I am now pushes me to acquire so for example um I want to be respected and I'm this is all fiction right so I want to be respected so to be respected in my framework I want to be a professor respected to be a professor I need to have a PhD therefore I need to go to school going to school is what's going to make me happy do you see the difference and that's very interesting when we start to look at that because as you said the fruit may not be the same why I you choose I don't know what you want to choose watermelon I choose a cherry and we're completely different and it really has to do with that sense of in terms of personal definition of Happiness of where we want to to move on to but uh what Joanna brings to us as well as the idea that uh um it their phases of happiness and I think you start to talk about it josada but I I just wanted to to tell uh what they are uh and we can talk more which is we go from sensory phase to a sentiment phase to that idealistic phase of our own psychological growth right so sensory phase think about the baby right the baby uh the young child and at that time gratification ends in often in dissatisfaction once you get uh we receive what you're striving for right which is uh I want milk or I want to eat and once I'm hungry again I am dissatisfied it's in that sense it's it's uh has a has a sense of gratification but there is a a cycle when that is fulfilled and when you're um you know frustrated depressed or anxious again when we move on to that sentiment phase uh we are now moving into the realm of feelings but we're not

a a cycle when that is fulfilled and when you're um you know frustrated depressed or anxious again when we move on to that sentiment phase uh we are now moving into the realm of feelings but we're not there yet so we confuse and we're going to talk more about it right just said it but we we confuse the the attainment of a feeling towards somebody else as the attainment of pleasure within somebody else and it may lead in in in a in a bad phase days to this sense of possessiveness uh infatuation jealousy Etc and the last phase which is that idealistic or uh transcendental phase it's the search for self-discovery now I want to spend a little bit more time here because in the in the end this is what we're here to tell you what happiness is it's all about this self-search for your authentic self no longer your persona and in that you go through a journey of self-discovery that will lead to self-realization that will lead in selflessness which usually is translated into charitable acts into service Etc and it's so uh what we we talk about here is let's not be too harsh on ourselves it what we Define is our sense of being happy goes through phases and those are maturity of your your spiritual maturity and emotional maturity but it changes to a point that is truly transcendental and it has very little to do with things that have a monetary value right so from that perspective do you want to talk a a little bit more uh uh about what is to be happy um oh while you were talking about you know these different phases I was thinking about the sensory phase uh when you talk baby and how you know what before was a source of Amazement uh to us really you know enchantment like you know a baby the first time it touches something that is cold and you know uh trying to make a sense of and and then let's say feeling the pleasure of uh you know tasting something that is cold or something that is recipe or warm or you know so the different surfaces and and today we don't allow ourselves to be amazed by

say feeling the pleasure of uh you know tasting something that is cold or something that is recipe or warm or you know so the different surfaces and and today we don't allow ourselves to be amazed by that anymore like look at a beautiful sky yes it's always there I look at the sun it's always there you know I look at the stars and I think we are uh hindering ourselves in the sense because we we're not giving ourselves anymore to this to this feeling of Enchantment uh even when we are talking to a friend to a lobbit one how how beautiful it is that I had this person here today with me you know we never know about tomorrow so I I I I I was thinking that in terms of this kind of Happiness not only in terms of allowing ourselves to be amazed by things that are surrounded us and that the achievements uh you know the Pat in the back that I I need to continue going on and and this is a source of happiness and one of the the things that you mention in terms of you know the the the self-discovery the the the work that we do in terms of realizing that it's not you know yeah that my happiness doesn't depend where I live or what car I drive what language I speak or it's something that is is very is very personal I I I I I I've been um I I move it quite quite a lot and then living in different in different countries and cities and sometimes you know when people are going to go through this experience they come to talk to me about uh how was it you know to go and and live in a different place and then another country and I say you know what um it doesn't matter what matters is how you you feel you know I make each place that I go my home and I bring my emotions with me yeah so okay there might be you know different different brands of uh you know cleaning products that I have to learn but but but but I mean I will be happy or not in place depending on how I am and and in terms of another aspect that you mentioned which is uh the altruistic values and since we are talking about United States today as

mean I will be happy or not in place depending on how I am and and in terms of another aspect that you mentioned which is uh the altruistic values and since we are talking about United States today as well because of Happiness there is a statement by Eleanor Roosevelt that she says since you get more joy out of giving joy to others you should put a good deal of thought into the happiness that you are able to give so you see sometimes we will find more joy in helping others yes than necessarily just being uh selfish right looking for uh things um that are going to satisfy us not thinking about others in the need of others and you know it's beautiful this this thought by Eleanor Roosevelt and and how she shared that with us in terms you know our happiness depend on depend on that as well yes yes I want we're getting close to our end it's time goes by so fast and I want us to to move a little bit when we talk about it about happiness are you okay with that absolutely yeah so we you know when we talk about the phases you mentioned um it would be important for us to to also understand that uh transcendental that idealistic phase is out there right far from where we are now but between now in in their josada we need to consider uh several things and one of the things that I wanted to to bring here today is the fact that many people believe and this is from a psychology perspective right that happiness has to do with the Freudian Pleasure Principle right and we we talked at length of what was the principle he was talking about but what I want to bring here to everyone to you and to me as well is that uh while we you know we may satisfy or may not satisfy the needs from a from a pleasure perspective right uh one many times one will keep pursuing that as a way to not look or not feel pain right so I am I don't know uh trying to think here would be a good example maybe I'm uh my pleasure comes from jumping out of uh you know just uh hang gliding not jumping hang gliding and and the I'm

right so I am I don't know uh trying to think here would be a good example maybe I'm uh my pleasure comes from jumping out of uh you know just uh hang gliding not jumping hang gliding and and the I'm seeking adrenaline because I want to to feel something some sorts of pleasure but what I'm doing is I'm pushing away uh the potential feelings of Pain by looking at myself right so it's important here for us to know that yes pleasure is okay it depends on your phases and no pursuit of pleasure is only about 10 of what makes you happy uh not looking at yourself uh hiding behind some sort of Escapist activity will not not prevent you from suffering because we know pain cannot be avoided it is a natural part of our Evolution it does not mean that pain equals unhappiness and this is really important right pain is simply a mechanism to push us to keep moving toward our own growth so when we talk all of this we bring uh to us the notion of our ego right and our self um and one of the things that I wanted to maybe for us to close here josada is to know that so long we consciously or not right so long we attach attaining happiness with satisfying the desires of my ego we will not be happy and we can keep doing it but we will not and uh and and this is basically because once that however whatever desire is um attained or reached then I become attached to it and I be it becomes the source of my frustration of anxiety right uh I'm afraid there's a whole lot of science behind this idea and it's what uh leads retail to Prevail in a capitalist world that we live in but not part of our discussion today but uh right so we we want to do something and we attain it's it's ephemeral it goes away so you want some more and let that leads to a source of pain even when we don't want to feel pain and by not wanting to feel pain I keep pursuing uh artificial Pleasures material Pleasures it's a lot of stuff very important what you said because you know uh it's exactly that while we are just living in the ego we don't even

pain I keep pursuing uh artificial Pleasures material Pleasures it's a lot of stuff very important what you said because you know uh it's exactly that while we are just living in the ego we don't even acknowledge that there is a self or I'm not interested because every time I try to go there it is painful and when it's painful I look for escaping mechanisms so that I I I I don't have to deal with what is there I don't remember his name but I I I I have a quotation from uh I think he's either a psychologist or a psychiatrist sorry I don't remember his name but he said something that the human beings are the only animals that look for it for Danger on purpose uh so when we think about that it's horrible you know they said yeah nature animals do not go looking for Adventures uh Adventures um things that can put their life in danger I mean yeah they have to hunt because they have to survive and so they have to risk themselves but it's just because of surviving it's not like like us you know we're all paragliding and other things you know because uh I I I just I'm looking for escape escaping mechanism so that I I don't have to deal with my feelings with my emotions so in this way is like you know I try to fill the void with things that are not going to be lasting and it uh is not going to prevent us you know from making this journey and so the the thing is the sooner we we do it this sooner we acknowledge that the sooner we will see that it's so much easier for us to satisfy ourselves than the ego because the ego is like a Non-Stop demanding yes very demanding because like you said as soon as I acquired something there is something else there is something else because you know it's empty it doesn't fulfill us it's like you know when you are eating something you know for the sake of eating but you don't feel happy because it was not a tasty meal or something like that right I mean I think we can relate with that so yeah um ego is complicated yeah yes the good news is as we mature and we all do

don't feel happy because it was not a tasty meal or something like that right I mean I think we can relate with that so yeah um ego is complicated yeah yes the good news is as we mature and we all do that's a a fatality right that fatality not a death but fatality it is a uh something it cannot not uh happen to you it's it's uh our destiny as we mature spiritually our egoic desires all of them right so it doesn't matter what you are and how much you push them push away all the desires besides the egoic desires as we mature they will give way to spiritual aspirations right those spiritual aspirations will lead to that need for a deeper search within ourselves and this my folks is the road to self-discovery it is the road to happiness which is we spent the best about 40 minutes 45 minutes talking about but this is how we get there it is having the strength to grow and inherently as you mature you will need to look inside you need to go through this path of self-discovery so are we ready are we ready for that I'm just gonna say that it's not just a matter of maturing is spiritually speaking because sometimes you know people that may be hearing us are not that much into it so maybe you know we are sharing their curiosity and learning more but even in terms of psychological maturity because how many people we know that you know are in their 40s and we say you know psychologically speaking we're barely touching their teenager here so it is a a psychological maturity in the sense that we meant that we talked about in realizing that there is more to it than just you know the life dedicated to the ego but also of course the spiritual perspective that it will even show that there are New Horizons for us to explore so stay tuned with us and until next time I know this is awesome I love our discussion today there's so much more but I wanted to say uh in in the pursuit of happiness there's plenty of information out there we mentioned to you several books right uh the conscious

I love our discussion today there's so much more but I wanted to say uh in in the pursuit of happiness there's plenty of information out there we mentioned to you several books right uh the conscious being there's a little book called wake up and be happy the title says it all and of course we we also have finding peace and health which is a gem and we're gonna use it further next time we meet but until then hope you have a wonderful week and thank you so much josada for being here with me today thank you