Ep 6 - Psychology and Spirituality | IWD, Male Chauvinism & Modern-day Feminism

foreign welcome to the psychology and spirituality a bridge to a better life discussion I am your host Marcia georgianu and with me today is our very very special guest Kirsten Demello Kirsten Demello is an active board member at the spiritus Society of Baltimore she has been a student a facilitator and a lecturer on the work by Joanna DeAngelis Kirsten was born in Pennsylvania and she was born of spiritus parents and this is important because it talks about her entire upbringing within a spiritual spiritualist and a spiritist background she has been part of the spirit of Society of Philadelphia before moving to Maryland about a decade aguilo in 2011. she has also presented in the spiritus medical Congress and has also appeared in multiple presentations the spiritus symposia in the U.S professionally Kirsten is a registered nurse and has a Bachelor of Science degree with experience in critical care case management and utilization management thank you thank you everyone for being here with us today and today's episode is brought to you by our friends at the spiritual Society of Baltimore this organization was created initially in 1998 in Baltimore Maryland and it's an organization that is committed to spreading the spiritist teachings as a means to raise spiritual awareness to the community it is also affiliated with the United States spiritus Federation if you are interested in learning more about SSB as it's known by our friends please visit ssbaltimore.org the psychology and spirituality program is also sponsored by Ernie Brazil United States spiritus Federation and the international spiritus Council make sure you hit subscribe if you haven't done so already and if you'd like to check out addition information about this program please go to spiritus.us Kirsten is here with me to discuss how this is a tough topic right Kirsten how this subject is of male chauvinism contributes to conflicts conflictive behaviors existential conflicts in general but if you're interested to know more about the

is is a tough topic right Kirsten how this subject is of male chauvinism contributes to conflicts conflictive behaviors existential conflicts in general but if you're interested to know more about the subject I'm going to share my screen now Kirsten uh if you know more about the subject specifically we recommend you to this book written by Joanna DeAngelis with the collaboration by devaldo Pereira Franco finding peace and health great book I would like to also invite each one of you to please send your questions send your feedback remarks comments if you don't understand or if you want to contribute to this conversation we'll have a special episode to address them and we really appreciate you contributing to this conversation via chat but let me go back to you Kirsten it is so so good to have you here can you say hello to the public hello everyone thank you so much Marcia for having me here today with you this is it's an honor and I'm excited for us to have this conversation it's a much needed conversation I agree with you but let's begin by just saying we both of us wish everyone a Happy International women's day which is celebrated every year on the 8th of March and before we begin really tackling chauvinism I just have to say Kirsten oh my goodness conflicts in relationships are just they're hard right they're complex and we are just a I just feel like we're a big bucket prone to those conflicts and uh if I were to use a business language I would say those conflicts they have root causes yes and they're more than one uh they have a temporary countermeasure and those are really the mechanism by which we counter the issues that we face in relationships and they're like temporary and Urgent they may not really address or the problem are being effective right and may lead to worse problems in fact and again in business language the permanent countermeasure Kirsten as one of five girls right a family of six but Five Sisters uh we just uh born in the northeast of Brazil which is a

roblems in fact and again in business language the permanent countermeasure Kirsten as one of five girls right a family of six but Five Sisters uh we just uh born in the northeast of Brazil which is a country and specific that region very well known for its Mayo chauvinism so there as I as I read the books right about the topic and I immerse myself specifically on that book uh that resource that we referenced earlier by Joanna DeAngelis it really made it make very clear to me how accepted and normalized this this behavior is societally and uh on the other hand I have lived in the U.S for the majority of my life I work in a multinational global company and Christian for the past 10 years I've seen the company specifically try to address gender equality or inequality in this case in the workplace many many different initiatives we're talking about diversity equity and inclusion as part of the practice there's all of this and I don't believe we're there yet can we perhaps talk a little bit about how chauvinism has been so hard to eradicate in our society and Kirsten was Joanne a feminist at her time what'd you think well first I think we have to Define what feminist is because modern day feminism is quite different from the initial feminist movement that was happening in New York and uh well not just New York in many places but with the suffragettes and the suffrage movement um and you know just so much of what women were fighting for you know decades ago the right to vote is different for what it is nowadays it seems to some extent it's more of an extreme so was Joanna a feminist or is Joanna a feminist um I think she she was or is um but more so with the original uh feminist movement not so much the one that has taken on you know an extreme um sort of behavior or characteristics where can you tell me about those characteristics maybe yeah but maybe we can give that is the The Background by which this is such an important discussion yeah definitely so I would say the the initial feminist movement

e about those characteristics maybe yeah but maybe we can give that is the The Background by which this is such an important discussion yeah definitely so I would say the the initial feminist movement was about giving women the opportunity to be able to work um outside of the home to have to be able to go to medical school and um be able to vote and have a have a voice um whereas nowadays we are we do have that um still working on some inequalities but in comparison to what we were working on probably or looking at 100 years ago we've come a long way but nowadays it seems like we're going to there's some radicalists um that are that just call themselves feminists I don't think that they are they self-identify as a radicalist but they call themselves a feminist and they are um they are encouraging promiscuity they're encouraging abortions they're encouraging uh women to live as Reckless as some irresponsible men have and that living that way will make us equal and that's that's what we have to do and it's not it's it's a fallacy it's it's just a Corruption of what an original idea feminism to liberate women so we could you know be uh a a valuable citizen to you know trying to com go the other end of the extreme into making women into really slaves again you know slaves to um you know sexuality slaves to you know all these negative things but I'll stop there no no I want I want you to be very specific let's be clear what are you really talking about because I think there's a question here that the the the undertone of this conversation which is um sex which is in the words that come to mind that you find in is specifically in this book by Joanna DeAngelis are um possession superiority right so male superiority versus a female inferiority there's a question of because of it males owned female and and John is super cool because she gives us a very specific examples in time that we we can talk about it we can talk about it later but it they're there right yeah and then

it males owned female and and John is super cool because she gives us a very specific examples in time that we we can talk about it we can talk about it later but it they're there right yeah and then um she she talks about the fact that because this is body and I think that's what you're talking about right Kirsten the physical the the physical nature women which is born and raised and created a certain way I'm not being very clear here because of its its Readiness for maternity then we're comparing a society that we can go back all the way in the beginning of the beginning where my power my superpower if we joke about it was the strength of my body right and we're talking about Warriors being the leaders of uh small Nations or tribes and and that custom that is long gone quite frankly I don't we don't need that we don't need the body muscle is the the the muscle um Mass to be able to say I'm better than you because I'm a stronger in that way can we talk a little bit about that how all of this has really been mistaken in in how we talk about male chauvinism today yes so I I think we have to understand that the psychology and The evolutionary psychology behind why so anyway from a physical standpoint men are physically different generally speaking we could say that men tend to be physically more stronger than women although nowadays we know you know you can go into the gym and join CrossFit and you know lift just as much as a man can but from an evolutionary standpoint men were always and in from since we are spiritus and we're we we believe in reincarnation and we take with us all of the experiences that we have so and Joanna kind of talks about this as well so when someone has an has like so many experiences as a man um reincarnated multiple times when you carry all a lot of those traits with you and through you know learn Behavior whatever you want to however you want to Define it culturally um so men have you know as you were explaining in the beginning needed to be

of those traits with you and through you know learn Behavior whatever you want to however you want to Define it culturally um so men have you know as you were explaining in the beginning needed to be really strong to fight off you know and protect the the female and and to some extent some of that still stays with us there was a study um I gave a lecture recently and I quoted the study and I can't remember offhand but we can put it in the in the podcast notes somewhere um once I you know I find it and give it to you Marcia or yeah Marcia um but it said that they um they researched they interview like thousands of women and there was like a percentage that were feminists and others that were self-identifying as not as a feminist but they found that 80 of the women that they uh give or take 80 were identifying as a modern day feminists um that they you know were pro-women's rights they were pro-abortion they were Pro you know promiscuity a lot of things they were all that are what I would consider and I think Joanna considers this as well as on the extreme um but what was interesting is that these women um who were proclaiming that they didn't need a man they didn't want to have children you know they don't you know they can just be by themselves these same women when asked the same question um what kind of man do you prefer they still preferred a man that could protect them that could provide for them so so it's kind of confusing the results I think to many people that read this study because it's like okay wait a second we have women that are saying no I don't need a man I don't want a man I don't want children but yeah you you still like all the qualities of what you've seen chauvinistic so I think it's really important for us to Define like what what is what can I add something maybe yeah because I have not read your study and I really want to to see it to to see that uh that uh very conflict and and I don't mean that in the in in the the term that we're talking about but that uh Paradox

cause I have not read your study and I really want to to see it to to see that uh that uh very conflict and and I don't mean that in the in in the the term that we're talking about but that uh Paradox of paradox yeah I I don't want to be uh seen as in need of protection but inherently this is how I Define the the quote unquote the better man right so let's go back a little bit about what Joanna talks here as as we continue this conversation because she many she she introduced to us the fact of notion right that we have this thousands of years this Legacy that is embedded in the collective unconscious yes so so she goes back to in Western Society right um this idea of male chauvinisms dates all the way back to the Mosaic tradition so we as judeo Christian uh from a from a cultural perspective we inherited that right and it goes back to Joanna says all the way back to God as this anthropomorphic Creator and angry Christian not a father is a volatile father as she calls and and then she talks about a notion of archetypes right this is an archetypal construction that is reinforced later by many other things in history so I just wanted to say maybe if you don't mind we can spend a few minutes talking about that what is behind the scene for all those paradoxes that we're bringing when we discuss am I a feminism a feminist or not am I a modern or an original feminist what are the the Notions of how I deal with my body my sexuality in in remember when we when we talk about some of the issues in the conflicts that we have in relationships one of the issues that Joanna brings very very upfront Center is I I may become a prostitute right or I can go to uh adultery those two interesting countermeasures to the conflict in a relationship which are have a sexual connotation in them that don't really address the issue at hand so pause for definitions and forgive me if you know this already but let's talk a little bit about what is this Collective unconscious so back to Jung right Carl

don't really address the issue at hand so pause for definitions and forgive me if you know this already but let's talk a little bit about what is this Collective unconscious so back to Jung right Carl Gustav young he says Collective unconsciousness is straight from the dictionary is part of the unconscious mind which is derived from that ancestral memory and experience and voila it's common to everyone every human that is part of this this this experience that we're living right now and it's very distinct from Individual unconscious so why is it so important right why is it is it that we need to understand that this Collective unconscious exists as part of our unconscious right and and he really if we talk about it it really uh young as he after he left uh Freud and uh um he you know their relationship as as partners really was fractured over his criticism and I bring this because we're talking about sexuality right his criticisms of how Freud emphasized his entire development psychology based on how he looked at sexuality and that I love it led to what uh we we bring here as analytical psychology which is the psychological approach that Jung later developed so uh let's go ahead and talk a little bit about it uh I don't want to take too long but I think this is fascinating as I reminded to myself and my upbringing in a a country that is very sexist and chauvinistic in a in a part of the country that is even more so than the red list and in a family where we're all basically females and I never really perceived some things because you just project what you know what's right right but back at you Kristen what do you what are your thoughts from from what's going on today and how we really don't understand how those roles that we adopt are really archetypal in nature yeah no definitely I mean I think I think to answer your question I mean it's important for us to know and understand a little bit about the collective unconscience because it's part of what drives us it's it's part of

I mean I think I think to answer your question I mean it's important for us to know and understand a little bit about the collective unconscience because it's part of what drives us it's it's part of our makeup I'm trying to think of the words to describe it but it influences Us and how we think today um and so that's it's a big part of what influences us so it has to be taken into account um in order for us to understand who we are why we think the way that we think and um but in terms of what is going on in the world today you know we're what we're seeing um is instead of you know women just fighting to have equal rights we're seeing what I would from my perspective extremism you know radicalism where instead of teaching women and Joanna talks about this and I'll touch it on a second you know to Value who what we bring to the table who we are you know as women we have you know my collect my um ancestral baggage if you will that I carry with me to my benefits you know and and who I am as a this Immortal Spirit living many lifetimes I can only assume as a woman um you know we have maternal instincts we have this way of being that is unique from a man um Perhaps it is seen as being less of or less than but indeed it's not it's just it's something that it should be valued both from from a male perspective and a female perspective you know and even um the section in this part of the book that you showed earlier it's page 69s where the the chapter begins there's a there's a three-part section and the the section where she talks about um I think she titles that feminism um when she talks about that women you know we are not built to be promiscuous we are not built our physiology our psychology we're not you know the not to say that it's okay for men to be that way but the way in which we are our motherly Instinct our instinct to come bring together a family to take care of it's not it's not in our nature to be that way um so for us being able to look at who we are what we are and embrace that and

erly Instinct our instinct to come bring together a family to take care of it's not it's not in our nature to be that way um so for us being able to look at who we are what we are and embrace that and embrace all the strengths that we have and it seems like right now as as I'm looking at modern society we're looking at the the attempts to destroy family values and the family unit and Joanna talks about this not just in this book but in other books that the family is the cell of society and if you want to break down Society you break down the from the smallest cell and that is family so right now we're having all sorts of attacks on the family unit as itself in and of itself and Men you know also equally you know so I I do believe nowadays because of this radicalism are getting a bad rap men that want to provide for their families are seen as you know chauvinists which isn't always the case are there men that believe themselves to be superior of course there are but there are so or there is also men who just want to take care of their family that in their heart of hearts they want to be able to do that and then there are women that are seen as um inferior because they want to be you know in the home or to work in the home and to care for the children that that is beneath them and Joanna says no it's not if you want to have a career outside that's okay you can have a family and have a career but with all things you can't be extreme so if you want a career of course you know you can't be you can't neglect what you have at home so there has to be you know a balance and there can be and I think that there's a lot of of confusion right now as can you yeah go ahead sorry no this is there's just so much confusion and there's a lot of herd mentality where people want to follow what's cool you know what's hip right now and right now what's hip what's cool what's in Vogue is for women to be free and liberated to have it to be promiscuous and to not care and to not want a family to for a woman not to

t's hip right now and right now what's hip what's cool what's in Vogue is for women to be free and liberated to have it to be promiscuous and to not care and to not want a family to for a woman not to have kids because you don't need to this is what's popular so there are a lot of women because it's what's popular are just hitching a ride on that bandwagon and it's the worst thing we're killing so much work that the initial feminists did you know decades ago what they literally Blood Sweat and Tears fought to have a voice we're killing all of that in my opinion because we are we are damaging um who we are with our potentials as women um um and just Morality In general you know yeah I'll stop there because I want to hear what you have to say too no I was just gonna just lots of questions coming to my mind one of them is and I want to put that let's let's make a note put that to the end but the the first question came to my mind which I wanted to answer at the end is what do we want to tell our children and our children's children about what is this notion that so beautifully written in in in so many of the works by Joanna DeAngelis and it marries psychology and spirituality regarding feminism in in chauvinism and how you you're almost there how do we attain that balance right which is the one that which does not betray us and our our own conflicts that we bring with us so that's the last question but one of the things that came to my mind when you're talking uh right now is the fact that uh we we are influenced right Kirsten by that ancestral baggage that we bring and we don't even know that but as we mentioned before we are Immortal we believe in the immortality of our souls which leads to the conclusion that the Dogma if you will that the dog of reincarnation which is you will live and you live after this life and you'll live after this life but there is no sanctity or sanctification is the better term of once you your body you know disintegrates when there is a corporeal

l live and you live after this life and you'll live after this life but there is no sanctity or sanctification is the better term of once you your body you know disintegrates when there is a corporeal death you don't become a saint even though somehow we we tend to believe that uh we continue with all the set of beliefs that we our experience uh provided us to include the gender that you lived it's it's inherent part of our experience so from that perspective I just wanted to to bring one notion here to everyone and just a definition again very um from from a you know uh dictionary definition um because some of the things that Jung brought to us in in the idea of uh um Collective unconscious was also the archetypes right and those archetypes really they're important for us to understand because those are the projections that we use you use so what are archetypes and forgiving if you know but for those who do not archetypes simply means the universal and this is the character right it's not about Kirsten or Mercy or anybody you know but those are Universal models those are behaviors and personality that will influence our human behavior so what what Jung tells us is that those archetypes they originate from the collective unconsciousness so as such they will somehow organize how we go about our lives how we experience life in itself and it's very interesting just as a plug if you like to read the he says Jung in his book the structure of the psyche that the most powerful ideas in history are linked to that notion of archetypes so it's really important that we understand because somehow based on the fact that we don't really think about it we have behaviors that may bring to certain concerns as we are perhaps bystanders to this modern and I'm quoting you Kirsten this morning modern feminism and how they express themselves or or maybe we are as witnesses to this no what is it back to that question what is it we want to tell our children and our children's children about feminism

feminism and how they express themselves or or maybe we are as witnesses to this no what is it back to that question what is it we want to tell our children and our children's children about feminism hmm that's I mean that's a great question um and I I pause not because I don't know I pause because it is there it's a loaded question and I want to be intentional um and expressing myself but I think that What in in my mind what we I would want to pass down to my children and hopefully to you know my children pass that down to their children and so forth and so on is is essentially what Joanna talks about in this chapter um of this book and in other parts and other books as well this idea that you know celebrate who you are yes and it's also important to note that if we're and I don't want to get into the the discussion about because I know this is a whole other discussion of itself that um gender dysphoria but when we're born into the body that we're born into and you know the gender that we're born into it's for a reason it's for a purpose and it's for us not to fight that but to try and embrace it and learn from it because there's a purpose if if you know God the High Spirits have put this together for us this reincarnatory plan if you will there's a purpose in it for us to learn and observe and to grow and and to flourish wherever we are planted um and here so to speak I'm planted in this particular physical body so let me embrace it and there's something beautiful about being a woman about you know being able to give birth being able to have that uh that gift it is it is Indescribable it is absolutely Indescribable it should be revered it should be something that it should be cherished that all women should cherish and that about themself now is this a say that I would pass this along and say well you must be a mother you must have X amount of children no of course some women are just not either going to have someone may have reproductive issues and that's okay

ould pass this along and say well you must be a mother you must have X amount of children no of course some women are just not either going to have someone may have reproductive issues and that's okay um and each person you know each to each their own but it is something beautiful I would say to pass on this idea of embracing your femininity embracing the strengths that you have and not looking down on it so if you feel you want to embrace your femininity and if that looks like well I want to be a mother I want to be a stay-at-home mom or I want to you know make raising my children at home my career that's okay you're not less of a human being because of that but if you feel like you want to have you know a job outside of your home that's okay too and everything you have to find a balance and I I would say that don't go with whatever is the new you know in Vogue at the moment you know my own mother used to say this that morality doesn't change from you know one generation to the next morality maintains its its Integrity it's it's um it's um validity regardless of what generation we're in although we like to think that it changes um it doesn't so feminism for me is just embracing your femininity your your value your importance as a woman we're not less than a man we're not more than a man we're just different in the same way that men are just different they're not better than us they're just they have other qualities that they are meant to embrace in the physical body that they're in will we reach a point as we evolve because we know that the spirit has no gender of course will we evolve to a point in some distant planetary system where you know our physical bodies will be as such where we won't have a gender I don't know but I what I do know as right now the foreseeable future this is where I find myself on my evolutionary Journey and the more any of us rebel against our own self when we rebel against you know the realities we find ourselves in we cause ourselves much more pain when we learn

nd myself on my evolutionary Journey and the more any of us rebel against our own self when we rebel against you know the realities we find ourselves in we cause ourselves much more pain when we learn about acceptance yes in The Gospel According to spiritualism there's a chapter that's entitled um resin obedience and resignation and that's both for males and females that's not just a female thing but it's more so towards when we think of Our Lives not submitting to another gender not submitting blindly to um you know your partner your husband but submitting to the laws of God submitting to an understanding and being in acceptance so I'll stop there because I don't want to hog up this conversation no it's awesome because you you bring so many issues for us and and maybe some of the words that that ring about to me is does does the obedience right there's a billions in resignation really imply a submissive attitude no it does not right obedience and resignation really has a a direct relationship with respect With Honor with courage to to embrace yourself courage not to fight and as we go back to the idea of conflicts in in relationship it's all about instead of driving into this inner core of who you are and and really embracing the notion that we we humans we are supposed to feel to be one with our sentiments and oh all the conflicts that I bring I prefer not to and I prefer to fall blindly into stereotypes based on some archetypes and I I made the unjustly and cowardly if I if I may treating myself my body in that that uh that whole exchange between me and the rest of the the world from a gender perspective right uh you mentioned I believe earlier we were talking um Kirsten at a different conversation and you mentioned a phenomenon called I'm a feminist because we are discussing body counts and I didn't even know what that was about it's it's it's rather just that uh let's let's compare tit for Tad uh you can have multiple partners I should have the same aiming that should

ng body counts and I didn't even know what that was about it's it's it's rather just that uh let's let's compare tit for Tad uh you can have multiple partners I should have the same aiming that should equalize our experience and we know a very very um immature way to discuss your strength right I I look at myself Kirsten and I see that I too have certain biases uh in terms of how I see the world and I judge the um the shekels I can say the enslavement to a projected body type right that is unattainable and it is so unattainable that now I am submitting myself to terrible um procedures to to be what I'm not which is not lead you to to what you said just now right let us use this opportunity in this discussion to awakening us the desire to honor and respect and embrace our own identity with all that we bring with us all the baggage and understanding their historically speaking so many points so we are very close uh to to wrap up uh surprisingly it just goes so fast right Kirsten I wanted to know do you remember uh the story behind the 8th of March for international um women's day I don't I don't remember the story yeah so let me let me remote to everyone here it actually goes back and this is really uh terrible for us to even talk about it but it was on March 8th of 1857 in New York when the women that worked with garments they would be working for 16 hours straight and they went out and they protested they wanted 10 hour shifts and this is important because we we talk about uh you know unfair and and lack of Justice in the treatment as a worker this is the condition at the time on 19 mid 19th century what happened was the police was called the police actually I remember yeah right they chased them into a factory and they saw all these women as criminals and rebelling against the status quo this is important right the the rebellious uh nature of fighting what was the norm at a time and they were put into this Factory and they were burned to death so as we perhaps not this year but maybe

this is important right the the rebellious uh nature of fighting what was the norm at a time and they were put into this Factory and they were burned to death so as we perhaps not this year but maybe in the future years if as we talk about um gender equality and we talk about perhaps feminism original today whatever it is your brain the feminism that you're contemplating reading about considering right versus also a a very chauvinistic or sexist behavior that men and women may have let's think about let's honor all of those women that died to bring Justice and to bring the treatment because we women have the right to education we because we have a different physical makeup it does not mean that we're weaker we're intelligent we are sensitive we are also equally uh able to to to construct to be co-creator of this world that we live in the society that we live in so let's let's forget or perhaps try to forget all uh confusion on dealing with gender inequality from a way that based on maybe 2000 years ago reverted to I'm imprisoned to a marriage because my parents um right they they arrange this marriage and I'm now a possession to this husband or the fact that in that marriage there is sexually speaking I don't have access to the pleasure as let's say your partner and you go into different ways of dealing with your own sexuality let's not just revert what it was to what it is right now just the reversal the negative image of the same issue I don't know those are my thoughts why why don't you give your thoughts as you we conclude this really interesting and insightful conversation about male chauvinism oh definitely I think that if my my last thoughts that I'll leave for any of those that are listening is to go and read this particular book and this particular uh chapter this section of the book to better understand that's the I think the best thing we can do is what the the High Spirits told us to do is to educate ourselves now to love one another and to educate ourselves and

ion of the book to better understand that's the I think the best thing we can do is what the the High Spirits told us to do is to educate ourselves now to love one another and to educate ourselves and that's the best thing and the most important thing that we can do is read study understand from a spiritus perspective from this uh Immortal perspective because if we were to look at ourselves from one life only you know we could live one way but from the fact that we are Immortal the fact that we do have many life we live many lives gives a different flavor and a different taste and in all things um really try not to judge others and try to understand and I say this because there's a lot of things that are going on in our world today a lot of movements that are trying to destabilize so much of what we've worked for as women for so many decades and that's why it's important for us to educate ourselves what are we really trying to give up and trying to gain here um you know by being a modern feminist again I don't think anyone calls themselves that I'm I'm I'm saying this um for us to to distinguish between what started out and is still important movement to what it has become um because of social media because of fads because of what's in Vogue what looks cool um and then you know what we really need to go back to the basics of embracing who we are as women um and also men understanding their purpose being born a man as a protector and embracing your strengths that you have that's not and also I think we need to say this before we end that Jung talks about the um the Animus and the anima you know that it's that male and female counterparts that each one of us have inside of ourselves so we have a part of us that has you know um that is feminine or that is um masculine you know and finding a balance between all those things is really important for us so I'll I'll leave it at that because I I really feel like there's so much more we can talk about there's so much more to be said to

nding a balance between all those things is really important for us so I'll I'll leave it at that because I I really feel like there's so much more we can talk about there's so much more to be said to be digested if you will um Marcy like you said but um but thank you so much for this opportunity oh you're very welcome I hope to see you again in a future conversation career State and I I love how you brought such a difficult complex discussion on our modern interpretation of feminism and how based on the work of Jonah De Angelus we can find very current right counter discussion or counter uh arguments to how those interpretation have been met in today's society but with that I want to say thank you everyone for being here with us and I'll see you next week in our next episode thanks thank you