Ep 151 - Fear, Love, and the Silent Hero Within

Hi everyone, welcome to psychology and spirituality a bridge to a better life discussion. Yes, we come back on a weekly basis to explore this intersection as I call it between psychology and spirituality and we uncover some nuggets right then some some pieces of wisdom that can help you can help I hope help uh me and all of us here to understand and live a better life. My name is Marcia Trojano and I'm here with Dr. Dennis Cy and we're going to talk about courage but also the underlying topics of courage which are fear, love and that silent hero within. So Dad, it is so so good to have you with us again. How are you >> Marcia? It's great to be with you having a conversation about things that are really important and that matter quite a bit. Big items. We have a big beast to slay today. I don't think that we can fully put a final word on the topic, but I'm excited to engage in some thinking with you around courage. And and and here's the thing that um I think is fascinating for me and hopefully we're going to talk about this is um courage is something we can develop and we can learn, right? Um and when I was little, I always thought about like either you had it or you didn't have it, right? It's like a trait. It's a quality. So you can develop it. So I'm excited about um joining in on the conversation today. >> Yeah. And if I may, Dan, um whenever we talk about courage, the you know the the hero's journey uh from Joseph Campbell comes to my mind and I don't know why but the mental image that I have of the hero's journey is basically what we've been received in the Old Testament, right? in the David and Goliath, this young boy meeting and confronting this giant Goliath and uh and there is always this idea that if there were David against David then may not be as heroic or Goliath against Goliath. So it's it's this idea of heroic acts when there is a disproportionate balance. This is what comes to my mind. But uh uh let's see what is it what is this silent hero that we all have and uh

Goliath. So it's it's this idea of heroic acts when there is a disproportionate balance. This is what comes to my mind. But uh uh let's see what is it what is this silent hero that we all have and uh I want to say before we start proper then uh Joanna D'Angelus she she tells us that courage dignifies and I air quote here because it's her words right uh dignifies and raises the spirit and it is a virtual equal to the greatest ethical achievements. So I go, whoa. Right. It's quite thrilling. [laughter] Yeah. >> Let's go into it. Let's get into it. Right. Yeah. Let's not miss words here, you know? >> So courage, right? She says it's not instinctive. And it goes right to what you said, right? It can be educated if it's not instinctive. But she calls it ethical. >> What does that really mean to us in in your in your mind? I think that um and this is my main takeaway from Joanne and all the incredible work that she does. I think we should just pause it. If you're listening to this, if you're watching this and you've heard and seen one of these, you know she is not shallow, right? She does not stay at the margin. She goes for it. She steps into it. And that's why we love her so much because she's able to provide insights that it might take us a long long time to get to. So what Marcia what you just said right there there's so much in there that we can unpack from a definition of courage of relationship to fear it relationship to ethics right um and I think the way I start understanding >> her text and her talks about courage is that courage has a lot to do with an alignment to a vision of what you think is right or necessary. There's a wonderful quotes we can pull it out from this chapter. >> But I say this to then go into this idea of it's not instinct, right? Because she warns us in one line or two. She does this so well sometimes it's even annoying. >> In one line she can give us a whole philosophy of life, right? And by the way, philosophy of life and we like you think about this for like hours and then

this so well sometimes it's even annoying. >> In one line she can give us a whole philosophy of life, right? And by the way, philosophy of life and we like you think about this for like hours and then you go back to the next line. >> Uh she says that it I'm going to quote her here, right? It differs from impetuosity that characterizes the dominance of instinct demonstrating the magnitude of feelings that do not fear and do not retreat before difficulties. Let's break this down. >> Yes. >> The way I would paraphrase her and put her in blue jeans is courage is a thing, but there's also fake courage. We sometimes think that our instincts, our impetuosity, this impulsiveness is courage. And she argues that is not courage. Courage is based when you are aligned with the things that you want and you are aware of them, see their worth and you work towards it. >> Right? It's not that you don't have fear, but you're able to work through your fears to do that. Whereas there are moments in which we act out of impulsiveness. >> Yeah. >> Because we are scared. We are threatened. We are angry and that is not of a place of alignment to our true self and our goals. But that is a reaction. >> Yes. >> Right. And I think that the way I would frame that is she's she argues and I I love how she expands her thinking that courage is not reactive. Courage is proactive. It's our ability to tackle difficult things because we think that to that which we're tackling will get us to a point that is right, it's beneficial and is good, right? And so the impulsiveness sometimes gets mis diagnosed as courage, right? Just because somebody acts out doesn't necessarily mean that they're courageous. >> Sometimes there's tons of courage in not acting out, >> right? And silence silence. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. And so she really leads us to some really deep places of contemplation around what is this thing courage and how can I leverage and use that in my life right so it has a lot to do with it and so I think that you know and she

us to some really deep places of contemplation around what is this thing courage and how can I leverage and use that in my life right so it has a lot to do with it and so I think that you know and she gives us a couple of different definitions in here she takes us to Aristotle right in this chapter um which is brilliant in many different ways as she is I am always in awe of her and it's one of those things like when you think she's is really cool and then after a while like yeah she's cool >> and then you read something else like no she's really cool. Um, right. Like you know, you know, you kind of like rediscover Joanna as you read through things, you think great and then kind of like your parents, you think they're great and then you grow up like ah. And then then you grow up a little bit more like, wow, they're even greater than I expected them that they were. >> So, so yeah. So, I think that superhero, right? >> Yeah. >> The superhero Joanna D'Angels like our kids at least when they were young, they saw us. Um, your kids are growing, so I don't know if they still see you as Super Dan. >> and they might for a little longer, right? But soon enough it would change, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so I think you talked a little bit already about it just to to uh rephrase it or paraphrase you is the idea that uh ethics uh we could say you know law ethics there's a lot of classes you can go to um and uh and you say well is this a social construct and it's not it's as she she uh reflects what you just said Dan it's this alignment and I have to tell you I know that you have a background in certifications in project management. I am a project management by profession and then I am in this is really intensive several weeks long class as we speak all day long talking about alignment alignment of vision and mission and strategy and goals. And when you start talking about says, "Oh, no. I'm back into my class." No, we're talking about courage. We're talking about uh from a spiritual spirit

t of vision and mission and strategy and goals. And when you start talking about says, "Oh, no. I'm back into my class." No, we're talking about courage. We're talking about uh from a spiritual spirit psychology, if you will, perspective of what is to be um courageous. And so let's always think am I aligned with my conduct my choices my my decisions uh using my free will but am I aligned with my consciousness with uh also what we call divine laws right >> yeah and purpose and meaning right which we can go many different ways there is a wonderful sentence I took got a couple from this chapter because her sentences sometimes are poetry sometimes is philosophy. >> And she says in terms of like defining what it is, >> she says that there's two that are really good. >> Well, there's many, but two that really jump at me. She says courage is a byproduct of a specific feeling of love. >> Yes. >> Towards that in which we believe, we wish and we fight for. So the way I break it down is >> yeah, >> courage is a byproduct. It is a result of the love we have towards the things that we truly believe in that we wish for and are willing to fight for. So it is it courage is what comes from us being aligned to our purpose to our most noble purpose and knowing what is it that we believe in what we want and we're willing to to act on. >> So it is an alignment to a greater cause >> or it should be right. And it goes on to say something else which I think you just touched on uh Marcia which is brilliant which is because courage is that align that byproduct. It says courage unites to reason the emotion. That is to say emotion and reason come together in courage something we believe in something we know is right and that's where courage comes from. When those two things come together, >> it's not haste or boisterous >> producing phenomena of joy and pe. It's about joy and peace. It's not about impulsiveness like you were bringing about. It is not loud. >> It is about, hey, I feel this way. I'm

haste or boisterous >> producing phenomena of joy and pe. It's about joy and peace. It's not about impulsiveness like you were bringing about. It is not loud. >> It is about, hey, I feel this way. I'm aligned with my greater self, my purpose. I know that is the right thing to do. So, I must act on it. >> I have very little choice but to act on that which I believe and truly hold in my heart. It's almost like it comes naturally from that alignment, right? And yeah, >> for me, the problem is that alignment. >> Um, yeah, I'm I'm not always clear on what my alignment is to be courageous about or I lose track of my alignment or what I want my alignment. >> Well, because you have to agree, right? We we live in the world of things, our material lives. And the world of things >> calls that world calls us to to pay attention to a lot uh on any given life. So this this um constant pulling you to accomplish this achieve that uh and achievements uh in the language of Jonah D'Angelus something that is highly desirable and encouraged right uh let us this is all about struggles as we achieve something but the something thing as a material item is not really uh it's not uh non-ephemeral right it's temporal it's ephemeral it it's not permanent so if we are struggling to achieve uh uh out of material aspects of our lives then it's okay but it's discounted if you think about it right dad I I don't know if I'm I'm making myself clear in in in in in those alignment what is that I'm really supposed to be doing what is that I'm really supposed to be uh looking to do even when it's not so easy and uh we know the human brain and it's not just a human brain animals as well we always look for the shortest cut for anything I remember I don't know if you know this Dan but uh I was educ educated in architecture design. I don't know this is so long ago. Um and uh one of the key concepts that we were taught this is me as a young college student right was uh in designing let's say this beautiful I

architecture design. I don't know this is so long ago. Um and uh one of the key concepts that we were taught this is me as a young college student right was uh in designing let's say this beautiful I don't know a park uh central park proportion right and architects you know we we we architects I'm putting myself as one of them love curves and this and that the poetry of forms and our professors would always say if you [clears throat] do is be prepared that people will cross and kill the grass because it takes too long to do all of this. It's cool. We are wired to to go for what is the easiest fastest way to accomplish something. So anyways, back back to courage and and and and that I I think it's it's important for us uh when we reference alignment, right? It is um good to to to think about what what is ethical because it may be culturally speaking uh labeled as not good. So let's not go into the good and evil, good and bad, but according what to what is right. And at that point and especially inserted in many different uh cultures and and and you know aspects of lives that may put you in in a situation that it's it's completely terrible and you are afraid and you're facing fear, you face pain, you even face personal um uh loss, right? That's when you really know our courage. How how do we get to that point? >> Yeah. And I think that it because it help us refocus, right? Those moments of challenge >> help us refocus into what really matters. I think what you said about the world calling us to different things. It's very true. I think that the world has a very strong gravity, right? Matter has gravity. It pulls us away and distract us because we're not yet into the habit of seeing things at the highest level. We are not fully developed in our spirituality. So it's natural that we gravitate towards that which is close to us >> and what's close to us is everyday life and so it's easy for us to lose sight. So that search for what you said right like the aesthetics in architecture

gravitate towards that which is close to us >> and what's close to us is everyday life and so it's easy for us to lose sight. So that search for what you said right like the aesthetics in architecture sometimes we lose that because we are just worried about getting from point A to point B because I got to get to my class I got to go to work and so yeah like in those moments we fail to see the beauty of the gravitas of the aesthetic sense and I think that what she calls us to do is to think about how to develop the practice of aligning ourselves to the things that really matter. so that we may develop this ethical moral standard that she calls us to grow with. Right? Because she makes a point that >> uh that that courage is a result of a good spiritual guidance. >> Right? So if we have that alignment and if we are if we model that if we have shown that to us if we model or we get a model like our kids for instance, right? then it's great guidance because we are focusing on that which is important and then acting and moving towards it >> but that is so much more easy to like hear and talk about than actually do >> yeah and I want to bring um another aspect to it uh before we move on to a different topic which is uh from a psychological perspective right uh and this is bringing yungian psychology here but also inspired that spiritist ethic uh which is that u moral courage is a quality an attribute of someone who has an integrated personality and of course every time you read something like this you're like okay uh I hear you Marcia but what do you really mean and it simply means uh simpler than it may sound it's just that our ego is no longer ruled by you know uh the enemies in in in this discussion today fear guilt vanity but instead um the ego is ruled by this sense of justice but also love so on on this side then there are two types right one that psychological immaturity that represents our immature ego and it's thirsting right for pride for recognition, for uh anything that feeds

love so on on this side then there are two types right one that psychological immaturity that represents our immature ego and it's thirsting right for pride for recognition, for uh anything that feeds my my my ego, my immature ego. On the other hand, um we on the other hand we have the mature self which is always looking and acting um and ruled by love and a sense of duty and those convictions that when we have that purpose that you talked about then it becomes easier right we no longer says oh I I really don't want to do this but I should do this and you you end up spend a lot more time than is needed >> for that. Um but um um I I think um um she mentions um when she talks about courage Aristotle, right? Uh which is some interesting. Do you want to talk about it? This this the golden mean that he she talks about or he talked about. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think it really interesting because it just shows how tuned in she is to so many different ways of thinking and helps us extract wisdom from all kinds of ways. Right. >> Yeah. >> She making a point in that part of the text about >> um balance in courage. >> Right. And I think that Aristotle's point with the mean is it's not when it's not a know it's not necessarily when we are doing something that is it's how to find a balance between how can I put that into words in a way that it makes sense. >> Um it's not too too much left not too much right. Right. >> Yeah. And and you mentioned a little bit already, right, when you talked about reason and emotion is that uh the the Buddha would say the the middle way, right, the it's it's it's right, >> that's what golden is the right balance between those two different sides, right? And you know, if we go back to Aristotle and Aristotle's definition of of excellence, right? It's a habit. He says that we are what we repeatedly do. Excellence is not uh an act but a habit. Right? So you can see how that aligns with Joanna's uh point of like we can learn to be courageous >> by aligning ourselves and not letting us

e repeatedly do. Excellence is not uh an act but a habit. Right? So you can see how that aligns with Joanna's uh point of like we can learn to be courageous >> by aligning ourselves and not letting us fall too much into the emotion and too much onto the reason at the expense of the emotion and vice versa. Not too much into action impulsiveness and not too much into inaction. Yeah. >> Then we find the middle way, right, which we find in Buddhism and in which she constantly visits to and I think in that wonderful book of her optimism she she goes deep into we find this Aristolian mean of what courage could be and then what does courage lead to right because it is a byproduct remember she says it's a byproduct of that alignment >> but it is also a tool for us to ethically develop because if we know where we're going that's the And I know I'm going to go that way. In the process of moving myself that way, I will face challenges >> and I will know how to weather >> the challenges and in the process my faith and my feelings will be reassured. They will grow and I will learn through the act of selflessness, a negation, whatever it is you want to call towards the focus that I set. So the golden meaning right is about finding that sweet spot of balance in your lives right um which is hard. It is so hard because the world tells us that courage is to be boisterous, is to be loud and is to be like our society really call us to be leaders at all time, right? We need to like charge and show people how it's done and and it really takes us to one extreme without realizing that for us to be great leaders, we have to know how to follow. We know how to we have to know how >> I love it. Yeah. >> Sorry to interrupt you. It was just uh you reminded me and I have to to just interrupt because I saw >> Oh, Dan, it was many many years ago, but it was uh um a discussion, a lecture uh on leadership, but it talked about the art of followship. >> Yes. The example know how to follow to be able to lead. Like you have to know

y many years ago, but it was uh um a discussion, a lecture uh on leadership, but it talked about the art of followship. >> Yes. The example know how to follow to be able to lead. Like you have to know exactly what people want and how they will follow you if you really want to make a difference in the world. Right. >> Yeah. And in this this lecture the example is beautiful because there's actually a video of um flamingco and I'm doing this because I'm thinking I'm a flamco dancer. I'm not. [laughter] But this whole beauty of that uh ancestral dance and how one cannot lead but each one has a role in its followship but uh I I love what you said. Sorry for the interruption. I just >> no and I think I think we can I think I think we can bring that back to the integration piece that you were talking about. Yeah. >> Because the goal is not to extinguish the ego. >> Yeah. >> Right. Correct. The goal is to integrate the ego into the self. >> Yes. >> So that the contribution of the ego doesn't blind the essence of the self and the self can guide the desires of the ego. Right. Yeah. And so it's a beautiful again a golden mean between things. It's not like oh let's kill those things >> and let's just keep these. No, it's like how do we bring it all together? Who are we? >> What do we want? And how do we accept the parts of us that are not there yet? And how do we transform them as opposed to shunning them and rejecting them? Right. I would say this is probably in my opinion Dan the uh biggest act heroic act of courage which is to look at yourself and accept all the parts that you don't like about yourself. It it takes incredible courage to to start and contain continue to have this uh um path of self-discovery but also self forgiveness, self-love, right? So that you can then embrace who you are in we are I am in our totality, right? >> Yeah. I know I love that. I love that because I think you bring an assumption that we have Mhm. >> And I don't know that is like a really a thoughtful assumption if people I think

totality, right? >> Yeah. I know I love that. I love that because I think you bring an assumption that we have Mhm. >> And I don't know that is like a really a thoughtful assumption if people I think we just have that it's not intentional >> because it's an assumption >> that we think that heroes cannot be anonymous >> right that he that that being a hero requires a boisterous loud approach to things whereas what you're describing is being a hero in everyday life to work on your things anonymously. >> Yeah. And that is a cultural that is a thing that is going against our cultural values of the time where we think that we to be a hero we have to again uh be full of testosterone and be loud and obnoxious right um and and I think that integration speaks against that right yes >> it's about balancing the enema and the animus it is going back the whole to the whole piece is knowing who we are >> that can only take place if we're willing to engage like you head with these really big questions of who we are, >> where do we come from, where do we go, what do we want, uh which is by the way almost a definition of spiritism, right? And what is our relationship to the physical world as a spirits? And so it's really really big stuff. >> Yeah, I love it. I really do it. I have a tidbit here to to help with the golden mean. May I may I bring it to you? >> Please, please. >> And I'm gonna say I'm gonna sound really smart. I am not. >> Why are you are [laughter] >> but the neuroscience supports that too and how and um when we act with courage the preffrontal cortex the the reasoning center actually modulates the amygdala our fear center. Ah so even that is good. uh I may be super afraid and uh I have to tell you the the moments of the biggest fear fears in my life was when I uh became a mother right there's so many unknowns and there's so much fear but we are immersed in in the idea of love and that helps us right but we it's fear and courage at the same time it's that dance of the golden mean that Aristotle

any unknowns and there's so much fear but we are immersed in in the idea of love and that helps us right but we it's fear and courage at the same time it's that dance of the golden mean that Aristotle brought to us, right? How does this then connect because you brought up spiritism with um the idea from the spirit's book, I believe it's question 932 that says good people are timid because they fear the struggle. Can can do you have any thoughts about that idea of moral courage that uh that is you know necessary and what is needed perhaps for transforming our faith which is you know a a a thought a a feeling a an you know in into an expression of that faith which is would be action. What are your thoughts? Yeah, absolutely. And I I love the the connections, right? Because if we go if we make if we try to make a parallel, we might not be successful, though. Let's we're going to try is as you're talking about the frontal cortex and the ama, right? >> Okay. Yeah. So we know that our physical bodies have developed so that the back of our brain to the front and so the amida the amydala and the feelings and the regulation of feelings came first and the frontal cortex which is the front part of our brain the reasoning the cause and consequence comes later in our evolutionary process which is a beautiful symbolism of how first we get our feelings big feelings then we learn to slowly rationalize understand them, but we got to connect them like you're saying, >> right? >> Yeah. >> And I wonder if that connection is not what we're trying to do with spiritism and at the same time with this idea of heroess and courage, right? Being calm and anonymous leaders, right? Because if that question holds true and the good good is timid, right? Why is it that we don't see more good in the world? the spirit's book tells us because yeah, goodness is timid. >> And so there is a lot of wonderful things out there. You just don't see it. You don't see great acts of of of selflessness being broadcast because

t's book tells us because yeah, goodness is timid. >> And so there is a lot of wonderful things out there. You just don't see it. You don't see great acts of of of selflessness being broadcast because they are not meant for that. They're meant for others. Is when somebody helps an old lady cross the street, proverb speaking, they don't go out afterwards and say, and they shout, "Hey, did you see what I just did right there? Did you see that? Was me all me by myself." Right? But selfishness does do that, right? That selfishness needs that attention. And so I think what spiritism leads us to to understand is as we embark on this journey that you have been talking about and that has been featured on this program >> about you know integration individuation this shift towards an alignment with your higher self. you start to worry a little bit less about how much recognition you get into the world >> or from the world say and you worry more about am I doing the things that I think I ought to do >> whether they are looking at it or not >> perhaps the true measure of virtue is that when you do something that is right when nobody's looking >> yes >> that is like oh I think I think this is important to me right and so I I think what you're talking about is this transformation that takes place or should take place or will take place and all of the above is starting to find place in our hearts and we begin to see that the world is pretty loud out there. >> Yeah. >> But that doesn't matter much because if my world in here is tame, if I'm beginning to change my inner world, right? If I'm calming the storm within, not the storm without >> Yeah. >> then that is what matters. The storm outside is a reflection of the individual storms inside. Right? We can't fix the problems outside if we're not first fixing the challenges inside. And we going through our own journey, you know, facing our challenges, the hero's journey, the individuation process, spiritual evolution, what do you want to call it? Like there's so

allenges inside. And we going through our own journey, you know, facing our challenges, the hero's journey, the individuation process, spiritual evolution, what do you want to call it? Like there's so many different names to this beautiful thing, right? But so I think that is a remembrance that you bring to us that the focus the arena of our actions should be internal and not we should not worry as much for what's happening on the outside. >> Yeah. and and also you you're talking about uh focus but also understanding that uh in in the aspect of faith right which is a conviction for most of us it comes also the conviction that uh there is a mercy right there is a divine order and that we are not uh left alone we're not orphaned from our creator, our father that we we have that. So, let's go ahead and pivot, if you don't mind, pivot now to uh the idea, and you brought that up already, but uh let's let's get uh more time with this, which the idea that education for courage specifically begins at home. You are a father of two young boys, right? How how do we learn from Joanna uh around this idea that the courage should be developed from childhood? >> I think she is big on this, right? Um and I think she's very pragmatic in the most beautiful way because as a good educator that she is uh and she does not mince words uh because she's really coming from a place of exposing us to thought processes right >> she shares with us direct guidance on how we can do it. One of the things that she says she calls it out. She says >> in the home education for courage, right? Like in the process of education our courage at home. >> Yeah. >> You know we use the term education for courage but in many different ways in different passages we can say the education of courage. Right? How do we educate our courage? She says, "It is necessary to develop the aspirations of beauty, truth, and moral victory so that life's torments and the challenges of life, I'm paraphrasing, that appear along the way are properly addressed

, "It is necessary to develop the aspirations of beauty, truth, and moral victory so that life's torments and the challenges of life, I'm paraphrasing, that appear along the way are properly addressed with determination and willingness to overcome them." So, I think the way she breaks down is first of all, if we're doing this at home, are we pointing our little ones for now, right? Because they know, we know that they're just mini in size, >> right? They carry with them an like an an incredible spiritual background that we're unaware of. >> When they're meaning inside, we need to point them to to the noble, to the beauty, to the truth, to aesthetics, right? Which is the great things. They need to see that from us because childhood, as we learn in the spirits book, is when we have some of our shortcomings trimmed and pointed towards what's best. And after we do that, after we point them in the right direction, we need to model that, right? So we need to show them that we go through these things, that we care about these things, and that the challenges of life that we face are going to be okay because >> they really learn from what we do and not what we say. So the question then like educating children in this higher sense that she proposes that we do >> is educating ourselves. >> There's no other way around it. >> You want to show a tiny tot how to be a better human being like a pint-sized human. How to be a bit a good one. You've got to like put your money right your mouth where your money is. And you can't just say >> you got to be kinder and not be kind yourself because they're gonna call you on it and they're gonna see it. So she tells point them to the right thing >> and then show them how you also value that and I think that makes a lot of sense. I think it also has another question for us Marcia indirectly which is how do or did the models that we grew up with reflect that or not? No judgment. I'm saying like if we did not have that in our homes, >> then it makes sense that we might not

arcia indirectly which is how do or did the models that we grew up with reflect that or not? No judgment. I'm saying like if we did not have that in our homes, >> then it makes sense that we might not model that, >> right? >> But if we want to be intentional about this, we may recognize my parents didn't bring this to the table for a lot of reasons that we may not want to go into. >> And I choose to do the opposite. I will bring art, beauty, truth to the table because I know how good it is >> to have it and or lack it, right? or how bad it is to lack >> or if they did bring it, I'm going to honor that and pass it along. Right. >> Exactly. But I as you as you're talking about this topic of what if our families are unable to to be the model for us for our lives and there's so many fiction and non-fiction alike about this topic, right? And uh and uh we really as spiritist that we are, we really understand the why. Meaning that uh uh my child, my children may be much older spirits than I am. And uh and they're here with a mission to help me become better instead of the other way around. It happens. It's uh it should not excuse us from not doing that modeling at home but it could happen if for example let's say if um I am u born in and raised in a family where the language is one of violence my language most likely will be of violence right >> uh and as such what does it mean to break the cycle of violence generationally speaking and and I think it's it's very important that uh we as we are awakened to those concepts here in today in many other uh beautiful programs available out there uh to to understand that even if all I know is violence I have the right and the freedom to stop that Yes. And the agency to do that, right? >> Yeah. And I think that I think that so that level of reflection is already beautiful, right? >> The fact that we could stop and recognize >> with judgment or without judgment or with little judgment about what was present or not present in our upbringing

eflection is already beautiful, right? >> The fact that we could stop and recognize >> with judgment or without judgment or with little judgment about what was present or not present in our upbringing is a great step forward. >> Is a wonderful because then we have we have the agency to decide whether we want to perpetuate that >> or not. We're in control. Most of us are not at that level just yet. We are just reliving that which we went through without realizing that. So that's what process of individual is. And then we're also called to take a a step further which is now that we know that we are not just one lifetime. What other hidden treasures shall we say right um await us in the realization that perhaps the language of violence that we bring is not just from this lifetime and it's not just the result of our parents >> but of our previous experiences in many lifetimes before >> and that becomes a deeper proposition >> for reflection right because our habits are not just built in our childhood and infants infantshood they also the result of multiple lies because now we know that we are immortal spirits. So inviting that frame into the picture whether it's for us and also for our kids >> because what you said there also require quite a bit of awareness to think of our kids as more than just tiny little cute things, right? Driving >> up. Yeah. >> You know, so like stepping aside from that really is a is a sign that we're on the right path of thinking differently and more intentionally >> about who we are. That's super hard. That's super hard. But it's super worth it, right? >> Yeah. In in the topic of teaching or, you know, breaking that what was imprinted into us, whatever. Um I think it's important for us to be reminded that uh because we talked about courage against fear, right? But uh fearless children are not necessarily uh crazy um not knowing the limits or boundaries etc. It's really uh about discernment right dad and resilience. So I think it's important for us to to

ht? But uh fearless children are not necessarily uh crazy um not knowing the limits or boundaries etc. It's really uh about discernment right dad and resilience. So I think it's important for us to to look as parents that you and I and and most of you may be right or if you're not parent you have a role with younger ones that uh uh when we model as you mentioned then uh being calm right when we're going through chaos and hey that's what life is all about chaos crisis things going completely um off the script, if you will. Uh but in those moments when we can demonstrate our reasoning capabilities and our resilience and staying calm and have a um more of a problemsolving attitude and behavior during those uh you you talked about the storm, right? Those moments of challenges that we all go through, right? >> Yeah. And I think you hit something that's very important for our kids um nowadays >> because there's so much anxiety in our world. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And this anxiety for performance, you know, like the fact that we think that we got to be perfect at all times like you know, social media, you only see people flying business class, they're always beautiful, nobody's having a bad day, right? You know what I'm saying? Like there is this image that we're putting out because we're so insecure about who we are and we want the acceptance. Our ego needs that tending that >> our kids are wroing that too and they think that they must do that and sometimes we demand that even unaware. >> So showing that frailty >> modeling that I make mistakes too and it's going to be okay, >> right? It's something that might be lacking in our society because kids, especially when they get to be a teenagers, they're so they under so much pressure to be perfect at everything they do. >> It's the only time in your life where you're going to feel potentially the pressure to be perfect in absolutely everything you do, >> right? They put pressure. They got to be the best student, the best athlete, the

time in your life where you're going to feel potentially the pressure to be perfect in absolutely everything you do, >> right? They put pressure. They got to be the best student, the best athlete, the best lover, the coolest kid, right? when you grow up and you fall into your senses hopefully like you shed some of those out like you know I'm not >> best but I am happy with who I am >> and so modeling that behavior and that acceptance of of of of imperfection so to speak right is something that is fundamentally lacking I think in our society so much so >> that so many of our young kids are putting so much pressure onto themselves and we see rising numbers of suicide of abusive self abusive behavior >> which means that we're not attentive to that and that is because we're not tuned in to that because we're also falling prey to the same thing. Right. >> Yeah. Being distracted, right? The root cause. Yeah. Yeah. >> And and what is it that we're being distracted from? From what Joanna is calling us back to that alignment to the things that matter. >> We are aligning oursel for the things that don't matter in the long term. Right? It is the the that the that old thing that Jesus tells us right like uh you know store your treasures in heaven where it cannot be stolen or the mouth cannot eat it. that is put your attention, your goals or alignment on things that will last forever. Is the Buddhist approach of um impermanence, right? There are things that are impermanent like the physical things are impermanent. They will not last. If we attached our attention, our love, our uh you know focus to these things, we are going to be bound to be disappointed because they will come to an end. our houses will break down, our relationships will end, our money will run out, right? And we are going to be sad. Now, if I focus instead on having fun, uh, you know, enjoying my family in a healthy way, >> being with my kids, >> those things are lasting. And so that alignment again we go back to the

g to be sad. Now, if I focus instead on having fun, uh, you know, enjoying my family in a healthy way, >> being with my kids, >> those things are lasting. And so that alignment again we go back to the beginning and say the alignment to the spiritual to the aesthetic to the what'sing is what should gives us courage to move forward through this world of distractions and mist and illusions and and gravity right >> yeah absolutely absolutely I I really appreciate it we are approaching our time to end right and I just wanted to ask you invite to are there any final thoughts that you like to to leave with us? Um then before we close >> I think that is what we're like I think the core of this for me the message that I take away I often ask myself what is one takeaway that I take from you know from an experience >> is the importance of us aligning to that which is important to us. >> Yeah. um can't align if we don't know what it is to know what is important to us. It it requires us to stop and reflect and go back to really what matters and that's searching piece that this program talks about. >> Right? So are we making enough time to know what we are about and what we want? Then we can spend a significant amount of time figuring out how do we align to that? And as we align to that um I think that courage will come. So I think that courage for me becomes more solid and more concrete when I have a clearer more concrete view of what is it that I want for me in my life. And there are moments in which I forget that because the world like you said calls us to distractions. So >> they do it does it does >> reflection is key. Reflection is key. Let's make time to reflect. Let's shift the the FOMO. Even we even have a expression, right? Fear of missing out. >> The world does not want us to go deep. It wants us to go shallow and everywhere. >> Yeah. And uh back in the day, I my my professional life went to many different directions. But back in the day, I worked with uh I told you architecture

p. It wants us to go shallow and everywhere. >> Yeah. And uh back in the day, I my my professional life went to many different directions. But back in the day, I worked with uh I told you architecture as a background and and working with retail and retailing, you know, the art of retail, the art of uh enticing, seducing you is one that is often based on anthropological studies, right? What is that makes us human beings want to do things and boom they come to us and FOMO is one of those aspects that uh it is part of it as in hey last minutes for this promotion come come and many other discuss uh um strategies but uh you said something really interesting in in that science to seduce right uh all of does it is a very shallow. It's like a skin deep, right? It's just very very superficial. So, it doesn't stay for for much more than a minute. So, let's think about let's be courageous to dig deep into whatever comes at us. uh be a promotion, be a distraction, be boring times when we're called upon staying in silence and and not watch TV or or scroll in your uh mobile device or whatever. Let us just uh look at it. Let's let's go deep into what we need to do to find that alignment in align in find that purpose. Um, I think it's beautiful that uh we get to uh talk about Joanna and her uh writings around courage, right? And the fact I think my takeaway from your takeaway is that courage is something that we learn, right? And if we're having a hard time learning, we can pray for it, right? We can start with small nuggets of of courage and nurture it or even use u acts of kindness, acts of uh forgiveness to teach us those are acts of love to to to to have that uh act of resilience and and uh and the courage to to be more than what we as a spirit living a human experience is going through, right? >> Wonderful. And I think that once we do that, we will have those that resolve. Maybe the word is resolve >> that we see in the heroes, right? we see in Christ going through incredible pain

h, right? >> Wonderful. And I think that once we do that, we will have those that resolve. Maybe the word is resolve >> that we see in the heroes, right? we see in Christ going through incredible pain that we see in Paul Tarsus sticking to his goal to see in Gandhi leading his people to freedom and Martin Luther King staying steadfast to the idea of fairness and all these amazing leaders that we see there be that men or women or in between who have >> showed us that the reason why they went through such hardship and difficult things because they were clear about what mattered to them and so I think that's our let's build our resolve. Let's practice it. >> Let's do it, Dan. I'll do it. [laughter] But uh it's unfortunately time for us to end our conversation. I want to say thank you so very much for being here with us today. Dan, thank all of you all of you who who made it. And if this is your first time, listen to a program. Um this program is a weekly um talk that is released uh based on the works by Joanna D'Angelus and uh we do hope that you are able to gather some insights from this conversation and uh I want to thank our sponsors Mansandu Camino, the United States Spirits Federation, the International Spiritist Council and ALM Brazil, the Brazilian arm of the global medical spiritist association. Dan, nice seeing you and so long everyone.