Ep 119 - The Journey from Having to Being: Rediscovering the Soul's Path

Hi everyone, welcome to psychology and spirituality, a bridge to better life discussion. During our weekly episodes, we explore the intersection of spirituality and psychology and as a result, we capture timeless wisdom contained in both fields. I'm your host. My name is Marcia Djano and I'm super excited to have Peter Hayes with me today. How you doing, Peter? I'm doing well, Marcia. How are you? I am good. I'm good. Peter, today's episode we're gonna focus on this journey from having to being. And I would like to explore with you this quite powerful psychological shift from focusing on what we have to really understand the concept the idea of who we are. And uh you have to agree with me, right? Uh we live in a world where success is often measured by the car that you drive, the the how large is your is your home or uh how educated which school your children go to. Anyways, any type of uh um external ideas of success which is often seen through actually things that we touch through possessions, right? Through also the thought that those possessions equal to a sense of power, status, etc. And Peter, we rarely ask ourselves this much deeper question. What does it truly mean to be? Right? Uh I can think of myself of Shakes uh Shakespeare, right, with Hamlet to be or not to be. But it's really a very very uh quintessential question that we should all be asking ourselves and we yet we don't. And um if I think about it, I would like to to visit this question, Peter, that I bring to myself, right? Mhm. Am I living and working and producing and focusing on possessing or holding on to stuff? Or am I really on the road to becoming the person, not the person that I would like to be, but the person that I meant to be? So if you allow me Peter uh a little more time I would like for us to this my proposal today right I'd like for us to today to go on this journey together this journey inward so maybe you can help us all you me and all of us were here rediscover our own path to a

us to this my proposal today right I'd like for us to today to go on this journey together this journey inward so maybe you can help us all you me and all of us were here rediscover our own path to a sense of peace or purpose or better get true fulfillment. So, how about we start by exploring this uh concept of a dichotomy of having versus being and how this concepts shape our own identities, right? And and and shape actually society through the societal norms. So Peter, I don't know if you know this, but Joanna D'Angelus wrote uh that our society generally speaking values more heaven than being. That's uh what she brings to us in several books and uh you and I have even explored a couple of books in a symposium not so long ago, right? where she she brought those concepts really uh upfront and center to the idea that yeah, it's all about having and to the expense of being. And she even uh says that in in some of her books, her work that we are taught that from a very young age uh that success is defined by that by power by external evidence of those achievement. So when we think about it, this this focus does indeed shape our identity and beyond that it keeps encouraging us to have those external validation. We're happy when we can demonstrate that outward um sense of possession of power etc. And we're happier yet when the other person gives us those external validation. Oh boy, I admire you. Oh boy, look at look at you. How how amazing your your house is. Whatever. So uh from that perspective, those um material success are markers of our sense of worth, which is quite bizarre, right? where we depend to understand what we are and how we are deserving by those external markers. And uh the the dichotomy here if I may say so is the sense that uh quite unfortunately at the same time that I'm looking for this evidence of success I actually go into a path of insecurity right because of course possessions are ephemeral they eventually they even Even the the pyramids from Egypt as they

at I'm looking for this evidence of success I actually go into a path of insecurity right because of course possessions are ephemeral they eventually they even Even the the pyramids from Egypt as they defy that even they are subject to to dissolving at some point. Right? So if we if I am to ask you Peter uh what would give me a sense of a lasting fulfillment it is quite hard right? What are your thoughts? How can we talk about this this idea of having versus being? I was thinking about my grandfather. Uhhuh. My grandfather grew up in a poor household. Um, his father left him and the family when he was 11 and he struggled to provide and take care of the family as best he could at the age of 11. Wow. This led to him developing a very strong work ethic at a very early age. He became very ambitious. He left the area that he grew up in, went to another part of the country, uh worked for the government and became successful over time. In many ways, he personified the American dream. Absolutely. The thing that I found interesting is he learned a lot. Obviously, you know, he was had a strong he he knew how to read people and and he could see opportunities for business opportunities and things like that. But my mother told me something that I'll never forget. Uhu. He was talking to him when he was in his 60s. I I think I remember the time period because we were having uh Christmas together in Arizona and my grandfather said, you know, in spite of everything I've done, it hasn't really made me happy. And I thought, wow, what a what a what a how I mean, I've got all kinds of information on his accomplishments. I've got picture of him with Humphrey Bogart. he met um uh former presidents and things like that. So, this was somebody who did well. Yeah. But it didn't make him happy. It It's almost like um I don't know why I think of this, Peter, but uh we we strive to be above that line that would call ourselves mediocre, right? That ground. And by all means he who did not have the support of

t like um I don't know why I think of this, Peter, but uh we we strive to be above that line that would call ourselves mediocre, right? That ground. And by all means he who did not have the support of parents who would provide for his education etc. He did it on his own which is quite impressive by the way uh beyond that sense of mediocrity but that did not lead to ultimately what we would call a sense of happiness. Right. Yeah. Because when we talk about having versus being, you mentioned a few examples of what it means to have. You know, the career, the nice car, the nice house. Um, what are other examples? The partner. Yeah, you can go even for the the terrible to say that as a woman, but the trophy wife, right? Trophy wife. Exactly. Is there such a thing as a trophy husband? I think I could say yes, but let's outside of this conversation for the sake of this conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's say they're trophy husbands. But the one that that we, you know, makes us feel like, wow, I really have this. Yeah. And yet the irony of that is what uh the trophy wife doesn't stay young and gorgeous forever or the trophy husband doesn't stay young and gorgeous forever. We live long enough and uh as you were saying before the things we have are temporary. Now it doesn't mean they're terrible to want these things. Um, not to go too much into this direction, but the gospel according to spiritism stresses that money is a tool. Yeah, it's not bad. It's neutral. It's what we do with money that matters. So when we talk about having, having can be a process of learning, but as you were saying before, having is to be equipped with things that are temporary. Mhm. So if we are pursuing the temporary as if it's the only thing that matters, then we're hanging on to a a delusion. And I think my grandfather was not happy because he was motivated, driven, but what was really driving all that? Well, lots of things, but some of it was, I think, what you touched into about not feeling supported, not having a

was not happy because he was motivated, driven, but what was really driving all that? Well, lots of things, but some of it was, I think, what you touched into about not feeling supported, not having a foundation of love. Yeah. Joanna Angela stresses a lot that the pathway to being is through love. Children, for instance, flourish more when they feel loved no matter what. When they have a foundation of genuine love. Yes. Because when we feel truly loved, sure, we want to succeed. But if we don't succeed at something, does the world come to an end? No. But if we don't feel loved, it may very well come to an end. Because if I put all of my energy into having something because I'm trying to make up for not feeling loved, for instance, then if I don't get that thing or it slips between my fingers, it might be incredibly painful and devastating because I don't really know what my self-worth is. Yes. Yes. Um, so what does it mean to be? Wow. Well, that's a tough one. Our friend Shakespeare. The interesting thing about Hamlet is Hamlet doesn't really know who he is. You know, to be or not to be, that is the question. He's trying to figure out who he really is. Yes. Because in effect what has happened is in the case of Hamlet because his father was murdered by his brother, Hamlet's uncle who then marries his brother, his uncle is kind of saying to Hamlet, yeah, I did this, so what are you going to do about it? And then Hamlet has to figure out what is he going to do about it? That's when he starts to become who he is. Yeah. But before that he was in a state of paralysis at time sometimes. No. Yes. And it is it's really a a question of transformative um aspects of finding your own path, finding your own uh self, right? And and in this case uh we as a society and we're talking about not Shakespeare's time but our time today. We are more than ever uh if you think about Peter, we have never ever ever ever had so much at our fingertips, right? We have uh technology, we have information, we have more time than

our time today. We are more than ever uh if you think about Peter, we have never ever ever ever had so much at our fingertips, right? We have uh technology, we have information, we have more time than ever. We even um have uh the ability to do things with instruments and equipment. So there's this this ease that society through technology and other types of advancements have provided to us today. Yet we are met by a society that is plagued by anxiety, plagued by the sense of emptiness, that existential emptiness that and maybe is what your grandfather was talking about, right? uh at the the peak of his accomplishment and he's asked and answers I'm not happy and it's quite interesting because Jung brings that uh that idea the the proverbial uh midlife crisis where most of us men and women and no matter what culture you're in uh at the peak right at the peak of our achievements We go through that midlife crisis and sometimes we lose it all via divorce or separation or a terminal disease or u a a a sense of a a reversal of your fortune. things that just break uh your concept of uh your castle metaphorically speaking that you you created this castle that protected you that gave you the structure etc etc and all crumbles down but according to Jung it's there is a very powerful message in this midlife crisis which is that's the beginning of the true uh happy ending which is that uh and I put my finger here because I'm thinking of the triangle right where we go all to the peak and then uh go down in in as we age because at that point we are less and less concerned to to be what people want us to be and start to really be concerned more into who we really are in the being in this equation between heaven and being, right? In in this pursuit of your authentic self in the in the end uh as Jung brings to us gathering that sense of individuation, right? That uh sense of integrity. So, it's not all bad, but it's not for the faint of heart, right? Not for the faint of heart. You have to

as Jung brings to us gathering that sense of individuation, right? That uh sense of integrity. So, it's not all bad, but it's not for the faint of heart, right? Not for the faint of heart. You have to be willing to experience that loss, whatever that loss may be. Yeah. In this case, loss is losing a effort to hang on to something that we can't really keep permanently. So to have is usually something that's temporary and to be is finding our deeper truer self, whatever that may be. But it's it's it's uh sustainable. And since um you know since spiritism for instance stresses the immortality of the soul, it is something you take with you into the future. Yeah. I I can't I can't wait to to see my end of this existence and and come this is hypothetical right at this point. But I I in this idea this eagerness for my to to to get to that point and looking back and says look and it's almost like this hypothetical checklist. Uh did I did I become more patient as a human being? Check. Did I become a gentler person? Check. Did I you know did I did I help others in their moments of need? meaning, have I become more compassionate? Check, check, check. Right? And um and those are the things that somehow we don't have it because they're not tangible at the forefront of our dayto-day. We we truly focus on the the the the idea of where we need to be. But I wanted to to to maybe ask uh going back but just ask what what do you think Peter is um uh in maybe in terms of giving example what in what ways do uh our ways of living right our modern world how what are the ways that this world that we're both in certain ated on prioritize having over being. Um, and and I'm asking this because I'm really curious to to to explore what are the consequences of that mindset. Right. Well, if you don't mind going back to trophy wives and trophy husbands for a moment. Love it. Let's do it. Okay. So, I'll speak more as a man. Suppose there's the beautiful woman that some guy wants and he meets her. Maybe he

oing back to trophy wives and trophy husbands for a moment. Love it. Let's do it. Okay. So, I'll speak more as a man. Suppose there's the beautiful woman that some guy wants and he meets her. Maybe he depending upon how he meets her and gets to know her and so forth. The pursuit of her is what drives him. Yeah. Now I'm I'm being a little unfair. I'm focusing on more the the desire to have and primarily to have. So she, you know, there's the physical beauty, there's what she represents and everything, but emphasis on what she represents, whatever that may be. Uhhuh. And it's the pursuit. And then once one has made the conquest, if you will, or even this person becomes a partner, is that as interesting as when you still wanted this person? Yeah. Well, if you fall in love with that person and you find a genuine bond that is sustainable, then you know, then it evolves into something else. It's not about having anymore. Then it's becoming more like being. But if you're only really interested in this person because you know of what they represent or what they have uh in this case physical beauty or or it makes you know I look wonderful to everybody else. It makes people envy me if I get off on that and that sort of thing. But these are all uh external desires. The external might be what motivates us and gets us going, but then over time it's it's going to be the car that runs out of gas. Yeah. So, there's a genuine It's possible, but if there's, you know, a genuine connection that emerges. Yeah. And and so I'm thinking uh again, uh sorry everyone, this is terrible to be bringing that up, but we're bringing that up anyways, right? the the idea of a trophy wife, a very we're going to go for from very um traditional, right? Uh let's put the mad man, right? The uh 1960s idea madman. Yes. Right. the very very successful uh man with a lot of means and uh pursues this woman to be the partner because the woman makes in turn him look good as well. But uh I I keep thinking that this is really

ght. the very very successful uh man with a lot of means and uh pursues this woman to be the partner because the woman makes in turn him look good as well. But uh I I keep thinking that this is really a reference to a lot of our um cultural heritage, right? the passing on the genes passing on to the most power families. We're talk I'm thinking in terms of aristocracy where one family would get to the other with the with the Yeah, exactly. with the focus of keeping the territory or political clout and often often not really linking the idea of uh what binds those two people should be love instead. Right? So indeed modern society does place this quite excessive emphasis on that illusion of wealth, illusion of status, illusion of uh things that should based on this emphasis should equate with success and happiness but it it does not unfortunately right and and the consequences of that uh Peter I'm thinking here there can be quite profound um and I'm talking about negative consequences right because it may lead to this fragmented sense of self uh the the figure that comes to my mind right now is the terrible tale of uh King Charles now with his second wife Camila but the the fairy tale first uh wedding right the first marriage age with a beautiful wedding with Diana and how both of them were quite quite unhappy, right? And uh and uh and it's very interesting how um what everybody because we are society of voyers, right? The TV and other channels in in social media etc. really put us to be um voyers, but also we are judges of everybody else's uh ability to to portray themselves as yay, right? Like or dislike. And I'm putting my my thumbs up or thumbs down for that. And and uh Diana in this case represented all that is beautiful and and graceful and all of that. and yet it did not by any means uh um led to to to happiness for anyone in the middle. So the consequence as I said is is that uh at a minimum a relationship that is fragmented but at worst case um some expressions of

t by any means uh um led to to to happiness for anyone in the middle. So the consequence as I said is is that uh at a minimum a relationship that is fragmented but at worst case um some expressions of unhappiness such as u neurosis and depression in her case right she had a quite extreme case of uh u eating disorders and um and it's just really a such a waste Right? Because I I wonder what has happened to that entire family. Uh if you think about as as public personas that they are, but how each and every one of them in in in as I see it, I'm being the judge here is just a group of very very unhappy people, right? Emotionally speaking, they're all uh tainted if you will. So I'm thinking insecurities, conflicts, many many multiple conflicts, uh the feelings of emptiness, right? All of those just really are testimonials of uh the fact that having does not really lead to less fulfillment, right? And in the case of that relationship really it was so superficial that you could see in everybody's eye in the media just crumbling in in a terrible terrible fatal way if you think about what happened to her. Um so so if we keep on going further with that idea, Peter, maybe we can talk about uh the the pursuit of power through material possessions. How do you think they distort uh relationships with others? We are and and I love how Jonah uh talks about us human is biosocial, right? We we have a spiritual nature but we also have this bioosocial meaning biological and a very social component as such we we crave relationships. How do you think that uh that um general context of uh where we are brought up, where we our society values those possessions of how do they distort our ability to to feel love to love and feel loved? Okay. Well, if if um if we could go back to um to trophy husbands for a moment, and if you'll allow me to traffic a little further in gender stereotypes. Yes, we we are both forgiven today. Everybody else here, please forgive us. This is just a flight off for for our conversation. Yes. Okay.

l allow me to traffic a little further in gender stereotypes. Yes, we we are both forgiven today. Everybody else here, please forgive us. This is just a flight off for for our conversation. Yes. Okay. So, correct me if I'm wrong. Is it fair to say that some women are attracted to men who exude power, money? So, going back to the world of the TV show Mad Men, the successful upwardly mobile male is able to, you know, get the trophy wife as it were. And the trophy wife is looking for a guy who can help her feel that sense of security and and uh you know somebody who provides and she would rather be with someone like that than somebody who's you know barely able to get by and and perhaps um is not terribly confident and things like that. So assuming that somebody has bought into all of that, what happens if he loses what he has? What happens if he gets sick? You know, to to go back to what I think you were asking, what sustains a relationship? Well, often wedding vows stress for better or worse. Depends on the wedding vows one takes. But yeah, but there's a lot of truth to or an important question that any of us could ask ourselves when we're in a marriage. What really sustains it? Are we with that person in the bad times as well as the good? Yeah. Do we take care of our partner when our partner can't take care of themselves? Or the opposite, right? Or are we incapable even to to do that? Therefore, we inherently have a relationship that is self-s serving, right? And and shallow. I I think just this sense of there's no depth and of course no emotional connection because while those are the the the the elements that will create really strong bonds between people right friends members and yes uh uh in in the case of a couple but when we we have this selfserving aspect to that relationship ship. It eventually, it may not be quickly, but eventually it just, you know, dis dis um dilutes and disintegrates, if you will, right? Because if people's drives or people's desires for a marriage, a

ship. It eventually, it may not be quickly, but eventually it just, you know, dis dis um dilutes and disintegrates, if you will, right? Because if people's drives or people's desires for a marriage, a relationship are ultimately on a foundation of narcissism. Yes. for extreme unhappiness because um you know if one is primarily narcissistic then one's almost incapable of really knowing how to care for others and and live through all those moments that any marriage that lasts for for any length of time is almost certainly going to go through. you know, somebody's need help, you know, somebody's going to get sick. There's liable, there's always the risk of an economic change of some kind. And yeah, you know, um so that process of going from having to being would be okay, how does how do a couple adapt when things change? Do they adapt? If they can adapt then they are truly able to become something that maybe is quite different from where they started. Yeah. I I I just remember uh something that I read from Jonah D'Angelus where she stated that true love and uh as I say that true love I I oh immediately I'm thinking of the princess bride. Okay. I love that movie, right? Where he says, "What? How can you get to you and true love?" Well, she states that true love and authent authentic connection, Peter, what you're talking about, right? those things that really can bind to human beings through thick and and and you know and and thick whatever it may come to to that whatever to I'm talking about a couple here but two people are together but they can weather uh the good the bad and the ugly right because they have a a a a an authentic connection but she said that this is so difficult to achieve And she says that in the context of this world that prioritizes self-interest and that it famously said uh external validation, right? I I'm only as good as I have this approval of what I bring in my in my mask, my my external um a culture, right? But uh it's interesting because while she says that um I I'm

xternal validation, right? I I'm only as good as I have this approval of what I bring in my in my mask, my my external um a culture, right? But uh it's interesting because while she says that um I I'm reminded um Peter of um the really interesting um thought from Jung Kung because uh many of us right many of us think that the opposite of love is what uh apathy indifference or hatred right Those are those are the things that we can think like if you don't when you hate you don't love and he says oh no no right the opposite of love is power and it's very interesting because if we tie with this idea that we're talking about a relationship that may not be conducive to true authentic love because of an inherent desire that we all have Right? We all are ambitious to to to create a family to do things to to provide the best. So in in the context of a society that overvalues owning possessing than being he says that uh love and power are truly opposing forces in human psychology. So if you were to think about it right um the the pursuit of having according to to this thought by Jung um is is also rooted in the desire to you know to control to be dominant and uh which is power and it's really all about assertion of my ego how can I elevate my ego by that that desire to pursue things. Whereas being or loving to use the the the words bayong um it's really that's when we see that as the the the source of true fulfillment, right? We we're talking part of being then is we're not always in control. Yes. We're allowing things to happen. Yes. Yes. Because we're comfortable with that, not because we're afraid of it. Yeah. And pursuit of control is rooted in fear. Absolutely. You're you're you getting, you know, hitting the nail right there because what we what we think about it is right there is a conflict. uh and we're we're referencing Jung and we're referencing Joanna and D'Angelus talking about the same topic and they both recognize that uh there is this desire in the society we live on

s a conflict. uh and we're we're referencing Jung and we're referencing Joanna and D'Angelus talking about the same topic and they both recognize that uh there is this desire in the society we live on um having and and material possessions and power etc which are egodriven behaviors and those ego-driven behaviors directly impact negatively speaking genuine love uh genuine bonding connection and self-fulfillment which would be the absolutely idea of uh quoting back Shakespeare what it is to be right this this sense of self-fulfillment so the more if we're thinking about the more we focus on accumulating external possessions and asserting our sense of control of power, the further away we are from truly authentic relationship. But beyond that, Peter, um we move away from the ability to connect with ourselves to that sense of self-awareness and spiritual growth. Right? So it's a very interesting paradox that is brought in in this idea this discussion of having versus um being. Well, it's people living in a world of my will my way. Yes. And as long as I am always in control and people do essentially what I want them to do, then everything's fine. Kind of. My father My father had a sense of humor. Yeah. once said, I'll never forget this. He said, "If you love something, set it free." Yeah. But it doesn't come back, hunt it down and kill it. I love it. Uh I love it. I love it. Yeah. about, you know, part of what it means, you know, to embrace love is that we really do have to accept who people are, where they are, and respect their free will, you know. Yeah. Um Joanna Dangelus I know uh there's I read recently that she's talking about you know in cults there's an effort to control to try to dictate what people will and won't do and um you know it's which is a signal right there right be aware right there it's prevalent yeah yeah you know one thing I like about spiritism is spiritism strongly in in respects everyone's free will. So at a typical spiritist center, people come, they may

aware right there it's prevalent yeah yeah you know one thing I like about spiritism is spiritism strongly in in respects everyone's free will. So at a typical spiritist center, people come, they may think this is great, they stay a while, then they disappear, some may come back, they come, they go, some come and they stay. You know, there's all kinds of possibilities, but there's no effort on the part of the center to pressure people or make people feel guilty for not showing up or coming back or so forth. Yeah. And there is no financial gains, right? Either Yeah. Yeah, for that organization. So it makes it much easier. You come in and if there's value that you get by learning, by studying, by engaging in that, you stay. And if if it's no longer valuable, you leave. And there is no there are no strings attached. Right. Right. Because when people if they do decide to stay, they've truly if they've truly done it of their own accord, their own free will, that that's a stronger bond. Yes. Which is interesting thing about what does it mean to be? Well, part of being, I would say, is when we're allowed to use our free will in such a way that we follow a path that really feels secure to us and sustainable to us that we're able to um you know, we're not following a path because somebody's putting us under pressure to do so. Or the the form, right? the the famous idea of a form versus content. Um, which is if you think about it's what we're talking about, right? The having is the form is the external tangible versus being is the intangible. It's but it's the contentrich um uh expression of who we are. Yeah. Well, I'm paraphrasing this a lot, but you know, another point Joanna D'Angelus makes in her work. Yeah. Is being is is sort of the equivalent of of what Jesus talks about the seed within us that it emerges and we find who we really are over time, but it was always there. That potential was always there. The essence was there. Yeah, the essence was there. It just needs to come out in whatever

it emerges and we find who we really are over time, but it was always there. That potential was always there. The essence was there. Yeah, the essence was there. It just needs to come out in whatever way it you know that spiritual process will will um make of it. But ultimately we we have what we need within ourselves. But it may take quite a while before we really become or be who we have the potential to be. Yeah. Maybe not even potential who we can and will be, but it it could be through a very long process of making all kinds of mistakes and being that power-mongering, egocentric narcissist and and uh and many other things and pursuing the having and only wanting to have have have no matter what. But eventually we transcend that and realize that okay the material and the temporary is not really what I need. Yeah. So so so it leads us to to maybe a final discussion here before we go today which is u maybe the idea of true fulfillment. Right? when you say uh we we have inherently in in a very immature psychologically speaking desire to to own things to accumulate things and if you think about historically speaking that's the evolution of mankind right it was from the the hunter gather society to agrarian society so on so forth but the more we humans evolved the more we're able to accumulate. And at this point, if we were to think about our society should be reaching a a point where it's like no, for example, and this is just an example uh that I'm thinking now, Peter, is um um do you recall the um symbol of uh upper education and really being a a family of means? and educated was this vast library of books, personal library of books and right and and what has happened well today with the the you know peripheration of ebooks and uh uh Kindle types of ability to read. It's no longer there. We we may be actually reading more than ever, but it's no longer at uh visible to to individuals outside of the own person that owns their own electronic library. This just as an example and I keep

e. We we may be actually reading more than ever, but it's no longer at uh visible to to individuals outside of the own person that owns their own electronic library. This just as an example and I keep thinking that uh likewise we as we have this explosion of population houses that are just vast, right? talking about uh uh 18 rooms and so you know a garage of 20 cars into we start to see the decrease in size because there is really no need for all that. So let's let's think about when we we talk about this sense of maturity that highlights that idea of true fulfillment. Uh I would love for us to maybe for everyone here together with us Peter for us to to explore what are uh the elements that demonstrate that uh true fulfillment and to me the one that comes very very specific to me is that idea of inner growth spiritual growth right the the sense of I focus on growing and learning etc. and self-awareness. Is there anything else that comes to your mind in terms of what are the I think service is part of that. The willingness to help others in whatever way we can even if it's just our families or or you know it doesn't have to go out you doesn't trying to save the world or anything. Well, but it could be right. It could it could be charity, compassion, altruistic. Uh um in other words, our fellow human beings really do matter. So we act accordingly. You know, we pay attention. We're not just wrapped up in our own little worlds. We don't isolate ourselves, which is not healthy. And we make an effort to uh be available to certainly help others if and where we can. Yeah. And just again be willing to go out of our way when when it's necessary. Going back again to whether it's family or a partner in a marriage. Um, are we going to make the time for that person if something happens in which we have to stop doing some of the things we were doing before or put them more on the back burner at least? Yeah. Be less self-centered and be more loving, right? Uh, in in in in in demonstrating

hich we have to stop doing some of the things we were doing before or put them more on the back burner at least? Yeah. Be less self-centered and be more loving, right? Uh, in in in in in demonstrating compassion, kindness. uh I think the focusing on the being Peter can be just the practice of uh being present mindfulness right or uh the practice of um self-reflection or even that uh self-monitoring self- vigilance right where we can look at it's like why am I reacting this way so just the the the the practice of asking checking on how we healing and try to understand the root cause of certain behaviors that we have. Is this something that was thrust upon me uh as part of my education or is it something that's really reflective of who I am? Right. Yeah. Once I've been put in a situation, how do I react? What is as a result? The other thing I think is important to excuse me to stress in all this is while we just gave examples of attributes to pursue in the act of being, we do have to go through that messy process of having and and as mentioned before, we have to be self-centered and egocentric and make lots of mistakes. That's just part of the process. And I don't think the takeaway from this is that we should be deeply ashamed for the mistakes we've made. But we do need to hold ourselves accountable. We do need to be responsible. We need to be emotionally honest. And yes, we may feel ashamed at times, but only to the extent that that motivates us to change. Absolutely. Absolutely. guilt is not the point either you know that's yes no this is this is really good I I wanted just to perhaps wrap up with uh point putting some of the points that I remember right so today we discussed how there is this quite modern but it's not isolated we we've been like this for quite a long time but our modern focus is really all about having and this is a so societal pressure and they really dis distract us from perhaps the deeper more meaningful aspects of life which would be equals to

time but our modern focus is really all about having and this is a so societal pressure and they really dis distract us from perhaps the deeper more meaningful aspects of life which would be equals to being right and every time I say being I I think of Hamlet is just funny but uh um we also talked about perhaps the idea that there are Or there may be unanticipated negative consequences from living with this mindset as your as your compass as your north right uh which is if I focus all that I am into owning to controlling to power etc. That interesting enough may lead to a sense of insecurity. It may lead as we mentioned um earlier examples in the royal family Britain's royal family right uh beautiful families but superficial relationships apparently and um and that lack of a sense of true fulfillment and that really pushes the the the counter to all of this is pushing us to to really uh acknowledge and recognize the importance of uh cultivating relationships that are based on love and being. Right? And and by that what uh we mean is emotional, spiritual, personal growth le rather than uh perhaps owning having material wealth or even uh doing everything you want or can to to to get that external validation because we're trying to control you know it's like right we we all ask ourselves this question why do I need to micromanage everything around Yeah. As if I could. Yeah. Why so important? Yeah. Absolutely. So if you were to conclude all of it, Peter, we we could conclude that true fulfillment really comes from your inner self, right? and your inner self wherever you are grounded in um sustaining values like kindness um love etc etc. So let us all, this is an invitation, let us all really seek to cultivate peace, harmony and focus on being, right? So that uh we may be more courage courageous and brave even uh to to look for self-reflection. How do we uh practice love? How do we practice trust in the other? How do we even uh have faith in life itself? Right? But uh with that, I

courageous and brave even uh to to look for self-reflection. How do we uh practice love? How do we practice trust in the other? How do we even uh have faith in life itself? Right? But uh with that, I just want to say I really enjoyed our conversation today, Peter. And uh as we come to an end of our of our time together, I just want to say thank you so much for being here, for joining us today, and for all of you who are here joining this conversation between me and Peter. We hope this conversation has inspired you to perhaps reflect on your own journey. And until next time, I just want to say stay curious, stay compassionate, and keep striving for the inner deeper inner truth within yourself. And uh if this is the first time that you are here with us today, please note that our program, the psychology and spirituality weekly talks are based on the work by Jonah D'Angelus. And we hope that you found some uh nuggets of information that can help you expand your knowledge of spirituality and psychology. Peter, thank you so much. And thank you all of our sponsors, right? Peter uh Manu Camino, the United States Spiritist Federation, the International Spiritist Council, and Ammy Brazil, the Brazilian arm of the Medical Spiritist Association. We'll be back next week. Until then, thank you so very much everyone. Thank you everybody.