Ep 116 - The Path of Joy: Navigating Life's Inner Harmony

Hello everyone. Welcome to psychology and spirituality, a bridge to better life discussion. During our weekly episodes, our podcast episodes, we explore this interesting intersection of spirituality and psychology. And as a result, we are able to just capture, reach, and gather timeless wisdom contained in those fields. I'm your host, Marcia Trojano, and I'm so excited to have Dr. Ana Fon with me to today. Hi, Ana. How are you doing today? I'm great, thank you, Marcia, and hi everyone that are listening to us. It's great to be here again. Absolutely. It's such a a wonderful time to be together, right? But uh and I I have a very interesting little story if you don't mind me uh telling to you and then we can talk about this very interesting and some people may criticize this. You are just too naive, Marcia. What are we talking about? But today we're going to talk about joy, right? the idea that we can navigate our lives, yours and mine, and reach a sense of um inner harmony and and and truly joy that uh that sense of uh playfulness and uh to me I I don't know if you know um the painting or the painter Matis Mis right he is very famous. He's a an impressionist or postimpressionist actually in the early uh 1900s France. And there's a painting that if you know nothing about history of art, you look at it's like what did a child paint this? But it's the joy of life or de viv and it's a group of people just dancing around and in a forest. So it's just quite quite beautiful. And uh uh let's just capture the essence of living with joy that so many of us are really overwhelmed, right? Overwhelmed with inner conflicts, overwhelmed with a loss of uh direction or even a sense of purposes. And it is so hard to bring back to perhaps when we were just born, when we were young children, when we could laugh and and dance and and play and uh be happy. So here's my story. Go ahead. Let us all here imagine that we're sitting or standing at the edge of a great forest. The sunlight is filtering through the

gh and and dance and and play and uh be happy. So here's my story. Go ahead. Let us all here imagine that we're sitting or standing at the edge of a great forest. The sunlight is filtering through the trees and that same sunlight start to cast a warm glow on the path ahead. And we're on this long journey. And yes, this journey, this path is filled with oh my goodness. uh trials, we we fall, we have missteps, we even have moments that we question ourselves, am I on the right path? Let me look at my map to see if I'm I'm taking the right path. And um in that path, many of us may feel uh indeed lost. We may feel unsure what direction do I need to take a shortcut? Do I need to go back? Where do I go? We wonder if um the mistakes we've made would forever scar us or define who we are instead of who we want to be. Right? And uh when we keep walking and we keep we just you know let me let me go through this path despite all that is going on in my mind and when we keep walking further we just start to all of a sudden notice something beautiful. We look and we start to see small glimpses of clarity. We start to feel moments of peace. We start to understand that at that moment that with each step that we take, we are growing, we are evolving, we are connecting the dots and be able to no longer be so lost. So this is pretty much the journey or the hero's journey that uh if we and I'm saying this with you know air quotes here the hero's journey because it references a lot of amazing work as we know and the hero's journey is is what we all go through life don't you think we we we are young at heart we are really unskilled uh to fight what comes at us to to be able to discern that those challenges are just simply another wrinkle that we have to go through. But at with the hero's journey, we get to a point that we do find a sense of harmony and we do find even within ourselves aspects of u ourselves that we may not have seen it before. Uh if we think about it, we can talk about our physical, our emotional,

t we do find a sense of harmony and we do find even within ourselves aspects of u ourselves that we may not have seen it before. Uh if we think about it, we can talk about our physical, our emotional, our psychological states as we go through this. And this path for this hero's journey, it's really all about learning to rejoice in both the quiet moments and the struggles that we have to go through. We it's a path of understanding that indeed each and every challenge that we go through is a lesson in disguise. And uh for all of us that are going through a path that we really don't know where it's leading to us, the path may not be clear, but it's a path of self-discovery, transformation, and ultimately joy. So an today, let's explore this journey. this journey to go into a path, this journey to also find inner balance, to find joy and let's talk a little bit about how we can indeed navigate the complexities of life and with compassion, right? How can we perhaps reconcile our shadow and how the simple act of rejoicing even in the midst of hardship can indeed bring us clarity and healing? Why is it important uh for us to even counter the uh this this invitation to be you know to live uh moments of joy with the life that most of us are living which is a life characterized by pain and suffering. Can we just start talking about it? What are your thoughts? Um, well, it's a challenge, Marsha. It's a real challenge because the the hero hero's journey that you were talking about has to do with the ego, right? And um we say that here we are because we are talking um and we are based on the teachings of John Dangelis, right? Yeah. Yeah, that brings to us the spiritist um knowledge together with the depth psychology of Carl Gustav and other death psychologists. So putting everything together and why is that? because we can have this uh understanding of the hero's journey for instance uh if we look u like in a Freuden way because we are all here in a sense um going through this journey as you

why is that? because we can have this uh understanding of the hero's journey for instance uh if we look u like in a Freuden way because we are all here in a sense um going through this journey as you said making mistakes and learning right uh so that we can adapt uh in this world and we can relate better to each other, right? We can develop intelligence. So this would be and of course we go through a lot of suffering and pain and conflicts and difficult situations. Uh and we have as humanity um been let's say been developing evolving in consciousness. We are not as barbaric as in the past. We could we could say that. Yeah. Uh even though we still still do some barbaric acts as humanity because we still have wars and still have people um dying of hunger and diseases all over the world despite the um if we think about humanity despite all the possibilities all the technologies that we have so hunger poverty uh death of many diseases at this point shouldn't exist anymore because we have as humanity this potentiality and we have developed enough science and technology. So why do we keep uh you know hurting ourselves? Why do we keep doing wars? And why do we do we have uh hunger in our cities and addictions of many types and you know different kinds of hurt towards ourselves and towards each other. And I think of course we have the hero journey. We are here um to learn to evolve. Yeah. Um but all of this could uh uh be like only with the Freuden aspects we would have enough knowledge to say well we have our impulses our drives and we have this uh need to survive and we we need to control this. This is very Freuden stuff. Yeah. We need to control this and we are going to suffer to control this because to to make civilization we need to control these impulses of aggressiveness of power and all of that and we get neurotic we suffer uh when we can't control this impulses. Okay. Mhm. So the hero's journey the the ego has to go undergo a lot of suffering and learning to control

of power and all of that and we get neurotic we suffer uh when we can't control this impulses. Okay. Mhm. So the hero's journey the the ego has to go undergo a lot of suffering and learning to control impulses let's say uh and this is one aspect of understanding ourselves but Jung and Joanna then much more but uh to bring Yung to the equation um Jung went further because he said It's not only adapting to this world to you know to this um material life but is finding as is very well said because we can understand the forest as the unconscious right and as you said so beautifully some clarity that comes the sun a little bit of sun here and there we can understand as our conscious iousness and our ego is struggling to understand the different uh conflicts that are on this path. Yeah. Um, and so we could think, but how can we rejoice doing all this hard work, you know, and trying to find our pa our way in this path through this u forest that some many times can be very frightening. Have you gone Marca in a forest where in I'm totally lost always? I can find myself East, west, south, north. I'm I'm awful, you know. Yeah. And I to convince myself that, oh, I have been, you know, wondering spiritually in other land. So, this is bothers me to know my, you know, if I am in the south or in the north. But it's just joking with myself because maybe I have some brain stuff, some genetics because my my was kind always kind of lost or maybe it's my psychological type because no we are you and I are the same. I I my entire family jokes about my lack of awareness, spatial awareness, right? So, if I ever go hiking, I there's a there's a concern that I may be lost if if you know if I'm not uh if I am not with someone. But I I think it's just so funny that you said, but the symbology is that it is a bit frightening even to the best of us, the most uh spatially aware individuals. It is not an easy. It's that that sense of uh pioneering that some of us have right to the hero's journey to go to to to to drive to to

even to the best of us, the most uh spatially aware individuals. It is not an easy. It's that that sense of uh pioneering that some of us have right to the hero's journey to go to to to to drive to to throw him or her into a an unknown situation and just keep forging. But that's what we do, isn't it? On a every day of our lives, that's Yes, we do that. We do that. We we have some, you know, some days better, other worse. But then um as you said, how can we rejoice? How can we find joy? And it's so so important to live with joy. Yeah. Because joy is that what uh what you said is the result of harmony, right? Yeah. when we find balance in this we have Can I can I ask you sorry to drop but can I ask to um maybe pause and see if we can perhaps start by defining what would be uh this this sense of true joy and more importantly for you as a union analyst but also with a medical background How does joy in your in your thoughts relate to this mental and emotional well-being? Okay. So since we are talking also about and based on the psychology of Joanna Jones. Sure. I will answer you with a sentence by Joanna about joy. Thank you. He says that joy is a result of the superior achievement of psychological health. Yeah. Psychological health which in turn stems from harmony that must prevail between the physical in the emotional and psychological aspects actually among the physical emotional and psychological aspects. and comes from within, right? Comes from within instead of coming from a a a response mechanism to an external event. That sense of joy, that uh lightness, pleasure, happiness, delight, any of those things, those are so beautiful words, right? they they really come from this sense of contentment but it's not abstract. It's really all about uh perhaps um how can I say uh uh uh based on your own expectations what you've achieved or how your contextually uh can frame your um and I'm thinking more of a cultural framework right how can you contextualize yourself in terms of uh

based on your own expectations what you've achieved or how your contextually uh can frame your um and I'm thinking more of a cultural framework right how can you contextualize yourself in terms of uh your life who you are how you define yourself and how you appreciate life. Does this make sense what I I'm saying? Um, and I I'm not sure if I I'm I'm I'm getting things all over the place. I think Yeah, I think it must I think for people not to get confused. It's we have to understand that Donna is talking about harmony. Yes. And it's very difficult to find harmony if you're looking only outside of yourself, right? Of course we are here uh in a relational life. We we relate to each other to the environment. Yeah. So it's not uh we have impressions and sensations from the physical world uh from our bodies right from our emotions that many times derive from these interactions right oh it's event based right sorry but it's event based it's an I'm here and there's an event um that can be I don't know uh you you've been in a a really cold the weather and all of a sudden the sun, you know, shines and there's a little bit of warmth and you go out and like, oh, and that's eventbased. My senses react to the warmth of how we respond and how much as you said we know ourselves. Yeah. because uh how much are we conscious you know it's all about self-discovery as Joanna said selfanalysis how much I understand myself because you also talked about compassion so to have compassion I have to understand um what I'm going through and to have patience and to understand that it's as you said the hero's journey everybody goes uh through difficult times to uh you know to even to get to know our own reactions. Many times we re react to something that we are amazed with ourselves. How could I react in that way? Why did I have those kinds of emotions right? So I didn't know that I had uh this capacity or this uh way of reacting. So we are sometimes a mystery uh to ourselves. That's why we say that

n that way? Why did I have those kinds of emotions right? So I didn't know that I had uh this capacity or this uh way of reacting. So we are sometimes a mystery uh to ourselves. That's why we say that symbolically the forest has this all this connection to the unconscious and the surprises that you get in the in the way. So let's go back. I think it's great that you brought a small story because then we can do some some um active imagination as Yung said or you want to uh tell us about you know um doing some kind of imagination and meditation in that. So if we think ourselves everybody that is are listening to us and let's use ourselves as an example. So when I was listening to you to your story because uh your the your imagination your creativity is your own. So your forest is very private to your to yourself to your experience of a forest. So of course you were imagining a forest and I was imagining another one and everybody that is listening to us would would be imagining their own forest. But remember that I told you. Wow. Because then you said in the path and I would be in the this forest and there would be sunlight sometimes and then I remember immediately would I be going uh right, left, north, south because I totally connected with my um awful uh sensation sensation. It's awful. I'm great with intuition and awful with sensation. So, and with this, you know, lack of direction. So, for me, for instance, okay, but then I know myself and I said, but it's the hero journey and I know the hero journey is, you know, the strength, the courage that we have to have to go through life and understand that we have these values. But how can we understand that all of us only by being born in this we are very brave. Yeah. No and uh all of us sometimes we are not going to feel that much brave sometimes we're going to be we are going to feel fearful of something but we are as Jung says and Joanna also says that we our psych here in this world uh is very dual. our psych, not all of us, not our spirit,

we're going to be we are going to feel fearful of something but we are as Jung says and Joanna also says that we our psych here in this world uh is very dual. our psych, not all of us, not our spirit, but the part of us that is here reincarnated is in a dualistic uh dynamic right psychologically speaking. So um of course when when I imagine myself I would be lost totally mostly because today I was seeing a lot of patients and maybe we are we are here and I'm a little tired. So immediately I thought of being lost in the let's say in the negative part of the symbol right because we are talking about an archetypal situation the hero going through this path of self-nowledge of growing evolving developing in consciousness so of course the so I connected uh because today and we are talking and I'm feeling great now. But of course when we started I was kind of tired and this and that as many people would be maybe are driving and listening to us and who knows maybe they said oh but I in my mind a picture of a forest with lot of trees and I would be kind of lost or tired to go to this path. So each one of us are going to be feeling something and inside in this at this moment when we are imagining right because we are connecting to the symbol and the symbol has a very specific meaning to each one of us despite the fact that the image is the same. A forest for instance the proposal. Okay, this is one thing but then immediately as we are talking about Joanna, right? So what happened and uh and re about rejoice. I totally I remember this well but uh we are talking about rejoicing and why do I have to connect with the negative part of um the archetype or of this symbolic forest? Yeah. And then and then you talked about a light coming through the trees and then I remembered a very nice day when I was walking through a beautiful forest and the sun was shining and it it was not cloudy and it was not dark. There was a lot of light and then uh immediately you connect to the learning

ice day when I was walking through a beautiful forest and the sun was shining and it it was not cloudy and it was not dark. There was a lot of light and then uh immediately you connect to the learning process and um the the way that despite the things that you consider negative about yourself uh but then you find value then you no but I'm brave. I faced that challenge and I found some values in myself that I didn't even knew that I had. That's the the hero's journey to despite of you know difficult times. It's like uh conquering or reconquering ourselves finding values that Jonah says that are kind of dormant within deep within the unconscious. But to do that it's very important we can do and I'll bring Freud again through this uh but the thing difficult thing about Freud and uh it's very important because he opened the doors of the unconscious but the difficult stuff is that everything you know creativity spirituality um you know um you talked about Matis the painting so all of these artistic things all in in the end was all about sublimation marsh. So it was we would achieve this part and it's the best that we can think of in Freudian's terms because we would like um control our um impulses our drives to destruction and to you know to um to difficult sexualities and uh you know things like that. Um so then it would be sublimation. We would overcome that but through a defense mechanism. Okay. And so we never leave the ego. We never uh the e the ego the the hero is always like uh you know this suffering character that okay he would be okay in the end of the day but not rejoicing. So I was wondering why Joanna asks us to rejoice in this life that sometimes it's so harsh you know we feel so uh so much pain and uh I thought about um Mara that pain and suffering that we undergo so many times it's exactly the opposite of joy right but is it is it Right. Yeah. Yeah. And we were I've been talking about, you know, the balance between uh this, you know, this duality that we all live.

any times it's exactly the opposite of joy right but is it is it Right. Yeah. Yeah. And we were I've been talking about, you know, the balance between uh this, you know, this duality that we all live. Yeah. So, I think she's calling and I would love to hear your opinion. She's calling us uh to a more balanced uh view of the world because I was thinking when we suffer a lot we can even explain uh through karmic conditions for instance with the spiritist knowledge and other spiritualist um you know point of views. But I was wondering Marca thath when we suffer right when we are feeling pains in reality it came to my mind I would like to I'd love to hear your your opinion about that uh I think the great mission of suffering and pain is to change our point of view through yeah you know to change to teach us and help us to realize that there are other ways of looking to life and to this difficult path that the hero has to undergo. Yeah. And what do you think about that? No, I I love it. And uh what comes to my mind this is a multi- faceted view of joy, accepting excessing joy, which on one hand you already said, right? There's a role of uh establishing a path to inner peace or inner balance, right? So you really we all not you, we all need to to to learn to um be resourceful and and create mechanism to achieve that sense of balance. Uh to recognize for example when those uh those sense of equilibrium of balance is disrupted. Uh and and I have to tell you um this is just an example. I for the past three months I've been having the most fantastic months since two years ago when I mentioned to you previously when I went through almost a burnout and it was very difficult and I kind of emancipated myself. I I I I I was able to break free from the shekeles of my my difficult uh several several months before and yet a couple of days ago I just fell into the pit of despair. The pit of despair. Yes, I am very exaggerating here, but it was important to to talk about here because

several several months before and yet a couple of days ago I just fell into the pit of despair. The pit of despair. Yes, I am very exaggerating here, but it was important to to talk about here because I recognized what happened that you know got me out of my own balance. So that is another point right is is to to to really recognize those disruptions and what can I do all of us to restore what I had before just a a moment before. So, uh, I was able to and I, what I did was I I I I tapped into my social network, those people that I trust and uh, I I just have to talk to you just to vent. You don't have to solution the problem. Let me just tell you how I feel. And right off what I was feeling and of course it is always a battle with me. So the battle of the other person that is trying in my mind to attack me, this other person said, "Oh my goodness, this person is going through exactly what you're going through." And it's almost like, "Oh, there is no enemy. We're just off off center, right?" So it was very interesting. But the other aspect of uh uh despite that uh beyond not despite but beyond the idea of inner balance I I think it's understanding um and you mentioned before already the role of compassion and forgiveness in this journey so that we can we can have uh again have joy right how do we do this why is Is it important in my case, my my little um my little confession here about how I was I was feeling? Why is it so important that I can look at myself? I can identify that I no longer had the same level of balance and and and and harmony that I had before. um look look for ways to restore it but then have compassion and forgive myself because I probably was the culprit. So, uh, having this pass, if you will, to, um, approach myself, my inner child that, uh, was really the wounded child within me that was crying for help and, uh, hold it, right, and welcome it and uh, ask for forgiveness. Those are the things that came popped into my mind. I don't know if it answers your question,

ld within me that was crying for help and, uh, hold it, right, and welcome it and uh, ask for forgiveness. Those are the things that came popped into my mind. I don't know if it answers your question, but I I think it's so important that idea when we talk about joy to me and I it always goes back to the innocent child, the playful child, the child that is just in the moment and and and happy and grateful and ready to learn, right? Yeah. Joy is pretty much um uh we can think um the child as a complex right when we were children and would play and uh were innocent and all that and had all the energy but of course the children can be hurt the child can be hurt. Yeah. Right. And uh we'll have we'll suffer a lot because the ego is immature and doesn't have enough uh defense mechanisms. You could we could think like that. But uh it is important Marc you you talked about that because the core of the complex of the the the child is the divine child like we have in Christmas baby Jesus. So is the archetype, the image of the divine child of everything that is sacred that is dormant within uh us that we were talking about and has not only the potential to be ha uh to be happy and to be fulfilled in this life but as Joanna said and she says that all human beings are committed to the universe to the universe. We have the stuff of the universe here in us. We are our bodies, our psych uh you know spiritually speaking and materially speaking the universe is within us and we are part of the universe. Uh because the stuff of the universe uh is what makes us. Yeah. Right. We are we are stardust, right? We are we are stardust. Yes. Yeah. This is so beautiful. So when you you say well to have compassion by my my inner child the child that is hurt within me that of course when we are talking about burnouts and all the demands of this world and the way that we feel unable or sometimes not so competent and not so able to do stuff or uh feeling judged. But many times we are actually projecting onto other people

ll the demands of this world and the way that we feel unable or sometimes not so competent and not so able to do stuff or uh feeling judged. But many times we are actually projecting onto other people this critic criticism that we are feeling towards ourselves or are doing to our towards ourselves. So, but this is all a part of the complex of the inner child. And aren't we our days if burnout for instance uh and depressions and anxiety as we have been talking here in this podcast are so prevalent uh in these days you know are so you know are the rising the you know the the rates of uh burnout and depression and anxiety. So why is that? So all our inner childs are suffering and uh you know of course we could think like that but I think the collective also Marca is doing us acting in this way if we are not paying attention uh because many times when I'll tell you a little and then we come back if we have time to this because I was just talking to someone during this week and it's a 70 year old lady. Uhhuh. That doesn't feel at all as 70. You know, uh her emotional age would be something like 30. She stopped around 30 35. She's 70 and she has uh lived u of course because we are all living you know if we have some kind of conditions in life being able to eat well and have some kind of you know u social standing whatever uh she can live to 90 90 something but as Jung said it's she has passed a a a lot, you know, the the midday of uh you know, the life uh circle and of the the sun. She she's going to the night of this existence. Yeah. And she is emotionally feeling as she were um she was like um 35. Yeah. Prime time. Right. Right. In the midday. Yeah. And the the difficult thing is that she uh she want she like almost spent the whole of her adult life partying and with f friends and traveling. So she thought that was joy for her. So she denied herself having children even get married. Okay. and her family is very you know a lot of uh she has nephews and nieces but uh it's a dynamic

aveling. So she thought that was joy for her. So she denied herself having children even get married. Okay. and her family is very you know a lot of uh she has nephews and nieces but uh it's a dynamic of the family they are kind of all childish. Yeah. Interesting. Mh. So, and she is the the person that um feeling the way that she feels emotionally, but she was able to have at least material uh material conditions and a good job and all of that, some independence, okay? Because the rest of the family even this wouldn't achieve. So it's a very like you know we are in Wonderland and there is no no time limit and we are going to live forever so let's just go party everyone and all this stuff a Peter Peter Pan complex right yeah yes exactly that's the dynamic of the family but then she started realizing that this joy um because of course the the body gets tired and you have a symptoms. I have heard someone say, "Well, but getting old is a disease." Can you imagine that? It's like a disease. Not her, but another person this week. But she, of course, she has gone through surgery and all of that to to look like a younger person and all of that. But uh doesn't matter because someone let's say another consciousness was calling from within her. Sure. It was you know and she started getting anxious and depressed without knowing why. Yeah. And this is what's beautiful in Yung's psychology that psychology doesn't matter if the ego wants to spend it uh you know the whole time of the experience in this life but the self the higher self our higher knowledge you know the wisdom within you could say that Jung uh calls the self capital SH is going to be calling the ego So she started getting symptoms without knowing why because if you looked at what she was talking about her life she was wow you know joy and still feeling young in the body even because she goes to she works out in in you know she runs and she walks a lot and she goes to academy or whatever and also uh has classes and all of that. so that she

ll feeling young in the body even because she goes to she works out in in you know she runs and she walks a lot and she goes to academy or whatever and also uh has classes and all of that. so that she keeps her mind but nothing of this you know different stuff that she was enough to prevent feeling depressed or anxious. Yeah. So when she looked for analysis with dep psychology because she connected to something that she uh read about Jung and then suddenly she started listening to this inner voice and starting feeling what uh because the ego was pretty much thinking that everything was cool you know. Yeah. But the unconscious the information that was not like that because time was was coming to an end for her in this experience and she had things to do and had things to pay attention to. So it's a very u interesting story and unfortunately we we listen to things like that nowadays almost every day because everybody wants to you know but but think about it and I um we are a distracted society. Yeah. Right. And that sense of distraction can be this right this mobile device that uh grabs me and instead of doing this or that I spend hours scrolling which in itself a device for that infinity of of there is no sense of end you can go and go and go right so I I'm thinking to myself as you're talking about this this patient uh I am 70 and on the at the surface level I'm doing what's good for me which is I'm taking care of my brain function my cognition I I am taking care of my body I'm taking my uh care uh of my diet I'm really doing good to the body so that I can live comfortably yet is that okay or not okay and I think it's okay so long it does not be become a distraction another form of distraction don't you think and and I I think one way for us to go back to the beginning in our thought about uh joy it is all about yes inner balance yes harmony yes self-discovery Yes, compassion, but also living a life of purpose, right? Being committed, right? Committed to to something that transcends the

uh joy it is all about yes inner balance yes harmony yes self-discovery Yes, compassion, but also living a life of purpose, right? Being committed, right? Committed to to something that transcends the physicality of this experience of this body. and and uh I my my question for you because we are almost at time is if you can maybe tell us if there's any tips or uh alerts or reflections that you can bring to us before we go on what can we do to cultivate to to to really um work toward having this awareness of this deeper purpose especially when we are faced with so many distractions and demands in in modern life to listen to the inner voice to listen to the inner voice. sometimes saying no to all this distraction as you said so well Marca because the end of the story of this lady just to finish our talk and to inspire people and so that people understand why it's so important to have some time to pray to meditate to do an exercise of uh imagination that we did creative imagination as Joanna said because then We are connecting to our uh inner world and our images, right? And we are in contact with our own inner characters, the child, right? The inner child, the complex of the mother of the young person that we have been, the father. so many uh characters that we have that can tell us uh what's our purpose in this life as you said so imagine when she start uh when she started analysis and all this stuff one of the things that I haven't told you is that she had a 95 year old mother oh wow who had dementia okay and she would pay for caretakers because she wanted to had her life and travel all around the globe and all this stuff. So when she started getting depressed and and she started uh g listening through analysis of dreams because then the unconscious never lies. Our consciousness gets distracted as as you said but the unconscious never lies people. Right. So when she did this Marca, what she realized she the time that she um had left she wanted to experience motherhood.

usness gets distracted as as you said but the unconscious never lies people. Right. So when she did this Marca, what she realized she the time that she um had left she wanted to experience motherhood. How could she experience motherhood at 70? The answer was there. It appeared in her dreams. She had to take care of the mother herself. Uhhuh. Right. And she did that. She stopped traveling. She stopped of of course with some help of one another caretaker but mostly she would stay with the mother. Yeah. She would change even change diapers of the mother and she discovered our uh herself. Oh that's beautiful. found the the she found herself in motherhood and she was so grateful for her mother to give her the opportunity of taking care of knowing what was taking care of a small baby in a sense but of course the mother was an old lady but uh she was like a small ba baby because she couldn't walk anymore she used diapers she had to give food for the mother in the mouth, right? As we do in a baby. Yeah. With the baby. And so, uh, she had this experience and she rejoiced and she was very grateful to life for even at 70 learning what was motherhood all about and finding this source of love inside of herself that she didn't know she had. Yeah. Yeah. So I think some very good example. Yeah. I love it. I love it. I love it. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. And uh just for all of you are there. We are at time. And just to recap a little bit, we we talked today about this interplay between our physical, emotional, psychological worlds, right? so that uh we can perhaps start to uncover how to embrace our challenges, life's challenges. But we do this to do this with joy, compassion and doing that we are able to have that deep personal growth and um it's very interesting because the idea of losing your oneself, right? losing yourself, the hero's journey. Uh but doing that in in the sense of self-discovery, it will never lead to a permanent loss. But uh it will lead us to an essential stage of

g your oneself, right? losing yourself, the hero's journey. Uh but doing that in in the sense of self-discovery, it will never lead to a permanent loss. But uh it will lead us to an essential stage of transformation because it will help us break free from fear and ultimately finding our purpose, finding our self, finding joy. But uh for all of you who are here today, if this is the first time that you listen to our program, please note that uh the psychology and spirituality weekly talks are based on the works by Joanna D'Angelus. And we do hope that you able to make some connections, right, and and perhaps even expand your own thoughts in terms of spirituality and psychology. Today I want to thank you Na for being here with us and exploring the topic. And of course thanks to all of our sponsors manu the United States Spiritist Federation the international spiritist council and Brazil the Brazilian arm of the medical spiritist association. We'll be back next week and I hope to to see you then. Thank you so very much everyone. Bye bye. Bye bye. Rejoice.