Ep 111 - Psychology and Spirituality | Embracing Unconditional Love pt2

hello everyone I am so happy to be here and to welcome you to the psychology and spirituality a bridge to Better Life discussion during our weekly episodes we come together to explore this you know this joining or this intersection between spirituality and psychology and we often come as a result to Timeless wisdom contained in both Fields my name is Marcia trano I'm your host and I'm excited to have Mahi hens here she's back with me today to continue our conversation from our last episode about un embracing unconditional love Mahi how you doing fine thank you Marcia for this invitation and um I just would like to ask you please to correct my English because I love to talk about spirituality and psychology but in fact there is a long time that I don't speak English so please feel free to correct me and guide me in this conversation okay oh thank you um thank you m Lucy I will if I see any issues but uh we're in this together right we're here to talk about uh just really precious Concepts and uh they are overarchingly um they bring this this calmness and peace throughout troubled hearts and love especially unconditional love is a really really important topic and I propose that today we keep talking about this uh powerful force in nature right unconditional love and I keep thinking M what could be some examples of a love that knows no bounds that um we love but we don't ask anything in return is it the love between a parent and a a child a two partners a friend or even a pet we can maybe find glimpses of that unconditional love and I just want to know how can we maybe explore that idea of how love has a way of shaping our lives in in really profound ways I would say m just the thoughts that come to my mind are what does it really mean to love without conditions how does it feel to be in the receiving end of that type of love how can we start to offer that kind of love to others but anyways those are the things that come to my mind but I wanted to uncover really with you how

to be in the receiving end of that type of love how can we start to offer that kind of love to others but anyways those are the things that come to my mind but I wanted to uncover really with you how can this type of Love Transformers so everyone out there let's just grab a cup of coffee cup of tea sit back and we're going to explore the subject of how the depth of Love is something that really doesn't ask anything right doesn't require anything except simply being so Mahi let's go ahead and get started um I wanted to know maybe if we can start by talking about the power of love right and uh if we think about about it we can start talking about uh perhaps how love is has that that ability to connect right and at the same time free us can we talk maybe a little bit about uh how love especially if you think about it the the love of our loving father or the love of uh that we we feel that is the most Sacred Love can help us heal and return us to our true s it's a very deep and interesting question because uh in the level of Consciousness that we have in my opinion we just can have some glimpse of unconditional love some deep deep experience like um a mother when he give birth to a child and he feels such a love that is unbelievable or person that has a very strong connection a very strong experience with a Divine connection so you cannot explain it I I myself I cannot explain yeah but in terms um speaking about for example when we talk about that we are spirits Immortal Souls living experience here in this material world we are talking about a concept that in spiritism we understand as Evolution and how Evolution occures so we start our path our journey here move it by instincts so in a second moment of Consciousness we are awake for emotions with Sensations and then emotions and then feelings and then the last the last step of our journey is to arrive and understand what love is so in this sense love is a kind of knowledgment yes and when Jesus when we're talking about in condition and

ngs and then the last the last step of our journey is to arrive and understand what love is so in this sense love is a kind of knowledgment yes and when Jesus when we're talking about in condition and love as the loving father in the parable of the Mystic The Prodigal Son yeah you know why this father could receive and what welcoming the sun with so much joy and because he understands the reality and the life in a larger way that we understand and and and Mahi just you know reminding everyone uh with the parable of prodigal son we talked uh several episodes now and and we talked last time it's a parable of two sons right and uh and that is containing Luke in the Bible but uh the youngest son asks for his inheritance right he says father I want my inheritance now so the father kind of you know uh uh estimates what is half in half and gives the son the half of the father but symbolically speaking when when you talk about this loving father that accepts the son when he returns he turns he returns broke right he's broken he is poor he is uh really uh has nothing else that would resemble uh him to be the son of before the event but uh symbolically speaking the act of asking for The Inheritance in my mind is the act of asking to kill the father right and uh from a psychological perspective I'm sure uh we have met those instances when a child or even a teenager just wishes to uh to get away from the controls of that father mother and somehow wishes oh I wish you you're dad but then we have societal filters just say you can't you can't wish your father mother to be dead so I just want to maybe you can uh as we're talking about that unconditional love when this father who knows more right as you're saying he knows more than the son knows was able to embrace him back without judgment right it's um we could say Mar we could have think together that we come we we come from an unconscious condition from God and we we do a very large journey to come back conscience yeah to God we live

right it's um we could say Mar we could have think together that we come we we come from an unconscious condition from God and we we do a very large journey to come back conscience yeah to God we live unconscience okay to come back conscience and I think that when this son asked for inheritance he said I want to live a different life here I want to try something different I want to break this way of think thinking but he was not really conscious of what was going on but he has this impulse you know yeah it it reminds me of the garden of of of of Eden right where where uh the what they what you say the the the sin right the first sin of of mankind was to move away from that treasured um Garden where everything was good but then he goes into uh the good and evil right where he or and she Adam and Eve uh go toward this uh U maybe unawareness a state of Simplicity and almost um I don't know if you can even say that from a symbolic perspective a a living like animals with a a very primitive if you will um intelligence but then they say let me get out because I want to know I want to learn and in doing this it brings about a lot that we know now uh of this journey toward awareness but most important the journey toward Consciousness right yes these are all myths of that tells about the this Consciousness that yeah but what is important is that in this myth of Adam and Eve there is a force that is symbolized the symbol is the serpent you know as as we could think in terms of a psychological approach that this is the impulse of the individuation okay there is a force inside us that says um please you are here you are here to live a your life as a whole in a Hess sense you know and this is a path that implicates um that danger things but Adventure you know each of us will live in in in in such a way that at the same time we have the same experience but uh it's not the same experience in another way so for example the son that the older son that stayed with the father he had a different story you know but what

ame time we have the same experience but uh it's not the same experience in another way so for example the son that the older son that stayed with the father he had a different story you know but what we say is that when we are an in living in this kind of paradise without conflict we are talking about a a Consciousness that has are is still in a indiff indifferentiation um aspect you know and to have to to to become um consciousness of our inner world of uh our outer world is a long process Maria that in this this moment that we live it occures with this conflict you know we need we need this this kind of conflict and when we talking about conflict in a psychological terms is that we need the opposite to understand one concept I know that something is good because I feel what is bad so this is the way we need this confrontation and when we are in Paradise okay there is no confrontation we are in so this in terms of um psychological process talks about um a level of very IM immature um psychological um moment of our lives so we become we have maturity when we have the conditions to face the problems face the the the the differences and you know with of course every conflict generates sometimes fear and anxiety but it's normal you know but the capacity now to face life so in this sense this son that's that asks for The Inheritance he was in the first moment he did he didn't have any idea what the journey would uh intail right he was just just left and I keep and I keep thinking my goodness my goodness what it is to to have no fear of Leaping toward the unkown right it's a really amazing moment and we can even think of ourselves in our own lifetimes when did I do that when did I break free for my Paradise or my Garden of Eden right what did I do and how sure I was that I was unbreakable that nothing would take away that sense of safety and and strength that I had it which which puts us into an interesting conundrum if you if you will because if you think about it um

I was unbreakable that nothing would take away that sense of safety and and strength that I had it which which puts us into an interesting conundrum if you if you will because if you think about it um and I'm just thinking here my Lucy if we think about it um the idea of love right and now I'm talking about uh uh more closer to us we're talking about not that uh in very material way right um the first thing that comes from that idea of Love Is that uh we are loved right because healing in of any ailments is is loving but feeling loved and believing that we are deserving of Love does it make sense so from that perspective that deserving that idea of deserving to be loved which must be internalized really means I as vulnerable as I am I have my place and I'm I'm putting my hands in an Embrace here because it is this idea that uh like a child in the mother's womb or even the child as as the baby becomes a toddler and then a young right uh child the parents are there to to provide that type of uh uh protection safety and in doing that um the child develops a sense of trust right and all of it which we could call the closest example of unconditional love as we are today is quite amazing in in terms of what does it do to that Spirit right that uh Immortal spirit that we all are and in that uh experience of being L being protected being entrusted to to to be protected gives us the the strength that we have to go about and get into the the path of individuation as you mentioned earlier Angeles in some moments of the psychological serious book says that most of the time we don't know what love is that's right because we taking this example of a baby when we have a baby in our arms that relies on us and we we feel this much stronger not um every people will feel this but as an example but then when this child starts to grow up and starts to disagree with with us so uh then we come we start to give conditions to love I love you if you behave in this way that's right it starts a discipline is is the the

hild starts to grow up and starts to disagree with with us so uh then we come we start to give conditions to love I love you if you behave in this way that's right it starts a discipline is is the the gateway to that conditional love right if you disobey then there are consequences to that interesting and this is a very interesting point because this loving father that receives the son when he comes back he does not give any condition to receive or you can stay at home if you do this now if you obey what I say if you agree with me no he has no conditions with this because he understands this son and but when we say that uh we have conditions this loving father doesn't mean that he agrees with the mistakes absolutely we mix the mistake with the person yes when we when we say for example for a child that he's doing something that is not good we always say I don't like you when you do this yeah we put what a mistake right what a mistake from mistake with child uhuh I I keep thinking from a neurolinguistic perspective because words are so important in how we frame a thought how we frame a feeling right but how we is special because most of us we become parents too young in my opinion this is my humble opinion and without uh sometimes even being prepared to to understand all that we should understand when educating the child so by change or not change but how framing the Judgment of this is not a good action equals you not a good person we can we can deal with even at some point depending on how we do it how often we do it into certain traumas right and and I think the other hand which back to the parable of the prodigal son mcy when this this man comes back and he's just terrible he looks terrible right his his his clothes are all uh destroyed with holes and dirty he has no shoes he's just in a in a terrible State the father Embraces welcomes the child and in no point sees a sense of worthiness with the condition that the man is right and I think it's quite interesting because if I were the father

errible State the father Embraces welcomes the child and in no point sees a sense of worthiness with the condition that the man is right and I think it's quite interesting because if I were the father I'm just fictionalizing the the the Embrace I could say I could see the father saying to the son my son I love you you are worthy of everything I have for you come home right let me let me embrace you and I think it's so powerful to say that because at the end of the day love is about connecting to um the authentic essence of each other right and and if we think about it I'm just going to digress a little bit here but if we think about it Mali we are so distracted this is the society the postmodern man we are so distracted and we need to go deep the other way around we need to look at our Essence our authentic Essence to be able to love ourselves and love the other unconditionally yeah and there is a very very strong symbol in this Parable that is the mental M the blanket it's almost like a blanket that he gives to the son yeah so he's supportive he says I can give you this warm welcoming you know I can protect you yeah and uh we are not used to this yes because we very because when you have talking about a love approach you know first of all Mar say we should have this care this attitude towards ourselves yes but we should not how do we say conf in English we cannot confuse right we cannot confuse Embrace and love with accepting mistakes being indifferent and in an attitude that does not lead to reflection yeah for example sometimes you say ah I know that I am selfish yeah this is not Consciousness yeah yes you know we are just pronouncing some words but without feel it yeah and because if if I'm I'm just venture to say here if I was fully aware of my whatever you know whatever uh attribute uh then immediately it would trigger a sense of transformation right if I judge that as something that that is not what I want to be then let's go ahead and change and and evolve or mature ourselves to be

hen immediately it would trigger a sense of transformation right if I judge that as something that that is not what I want to be then let's go ahead and change and and evolve or mature ourselves to be what we want to be right and this image that you brings with this sun that comes back without nothing yeah for me is a powerful image that all the process we do all the journey we have in our lives that we start being very very proud of our things you know we know everything I am I know the truth I know the right way and so life comes with all the experience and comes to take off all this certainty that we have and the personas right that we even not just the C the certainty of oh look at me right and I'm gonna I'm gonna pretend Let's Pretend uh I don't know I there's a figure that I love who's I don't know if you know uh the swimmer Michael Phelps uhuh I think he's he's amazing right and would be like oh look at me I'm received more medals than anybody else and there's this the Persona of an all powerful person and and yet we know that this is just an illusion this is something we build to be able to I don't know to get marketing dollars or or uh the marketing exposure of you as an athlete and when all of it falls through age through reversal of Fortunes when we lose our um political power our financial wealth our our youth all of it that allows us to be very proud uh and certain in this world this material world when everything start to fall apart if we are not mature psychologically and spiritually will fall as well don't we yes and we can have a relationship in with spirituality in this way as well yeah because we can have the idea that because we have much knowledge of something that we are ready to face problems that we know everything in life and what happened when happen for example one person that is very engaged in some religion knows a lot of of this religion and yeah but something happens has a disease or a very strong um emotion trauma in his life so all this

pen for example one person that is very engaged in some religion knows a lot of of this religion and yeah but something happens has a disease or a very strong um emotion trauma in his life so all this knowledge is just is not enough to support this experience so so learning now learning something is just one is just it's not the end it's just a way to understand life yeah so we must really have this openness to be open to learn with this experience in this son when he comes back home he understands this yeah yeah and and and I think um if if I may um um this experience that you're talking about right it is the what pushes us to to knowledge and to wisdom right and um we really start to learn in in this path toward individuation as you mentioned in the beginning of this conversation we learn to discern right uh by living the Opposites the good and the bad dark and and light uh right sweet and sour I don't know I'm just uh getting opposites here but when we we learn by our experience to discern um and to make the the decisions for our lives we're then able to to decide and to to grow um and explore even New Paths so I I keep thinking um MOSI experience is such a powerful teacher there is a reason why we're all living the these material lives that we live right because it is in in the flesh that we we have all that knowledge through our own own experience it's not uh imposed to us but it's also maybe perhaps important for us to recognize that uh whenever we we don't do anything Let's Pretend the the prodigal son right the youngest child doesn't do anything he's not willing to risk the paradise if you will that he had with his father he is actually not growing right and uh and he's holding himself back so uh interesting aspect for us when we're talking about love in the need to to move on to grow it it opens the door for discomfort for fear as you mentioned and and and the the the I guess the push and pull of I want to go I feel that I'm strong enough but then retract oh no I'm

move on to grow it it opens the door for discomfort for fear as you mentioned and and and the the the I guess the push and pull of I want to go I feel that I'm strong enough but then retract oh no I'm not I'm failing and maybe we can talk a little bit about that about uh uh how wisdom and experience correlate in this journey toward individuation when you were talking I I remember Yung yeah yavi was a psychiatrist the last century and um he has a book that he wrote together with his secretary in the end of his life uh he died when he was 8 85 86 years old I don't know and he said that when when they asked to write the book is named um memories dreams and Reflections and he said uh my memories I do not want to write about all the external achievements that I made in my life this is not important this is not important for me what imports what is really important for me is things that uh uh is come from from my soul from my experience all the experience I had and how I understood them how I was transformed by life he said so he was a man very very connected with the sense the meaning of life this is the myth of carav the meaning The Surge of meaning yeah so we can when you're talking about experience Marcia we are talking about the meaning of this in my existence here yeah yeah yeah so we can leave the same situation two persons can leave the same situation and one will will really uh understand this in a deep deep sense and the other one we'll pass through this you know as something normal without reflection yeah in a very automatic way of living yeah yeah so in wisdom comes disconnects with this wisdom that you were talking about wisdom comes when we are in the experience uh in Brazil and I think of course in United States as well there is a lot of letters that Jung wrote and receive from patients from friends from colleagues and very very interesting because in these letters Jung talks about very um difficult uh aspect of his psychology but in a informal way yeah so

e and receive from patients from friends from colleagues and very very interesting because in these letters Jung talks about very um difficult uh aspect of his psychology but in a informal way yeah so there is a letter that he wrote to an American teacher of philosophy in the New York University he wrote in 1950 his his his man was um a Chinese um philosoph um how do we say a professor of Chinese philos ophy yes and he is writing about because Yung had a very great interest at inis in Oriental uh philosophy he was a very open-minded man and he wrote to this professor if someone could arrive at the truth by learning the words of wisdom then the world would would have already been saved in the ancient times of loud say wisdom cannot be taught by words it is only possible through personal contact and immediate experience so but immediate experience demands for us reflection about what we are living and this many times uh implicates face our fears you know face our fears to find some aspects that we do not like yes no this is the work of shadow that you spoke many times here in this program with other guests yeah so it's a very very the most important task in our life is to be here now to accept to embrace all the experience and to give a deep sense a meaning of this experience we are living yeah and and it's it's I don't know why when you're talking about Yung and in this letter um I was reminded Mahi of visiting um his house in Zurich oh yeah right yeah and it was uh so amazing because today if you think about it it's a it's a house but in that day it was a really nice house that he had and um um really what came to me in the library in the bookstore they actually had several books uh selling there but this diversity right the the his Library had so many books about uh all the other philosophies as you said and it's just so good to see what does it mean to be open-minded like that right and and often times we become and if you think about this is just just a thinking in

the other philosophies as you said and it's just so good to see what does it mean to be open-minded like that right and and often times we become and if you think about this is just just a thinking in terms of our journey in in in this corporeal life um uh we we are born we grow we study we become experts right and it's almost like uh I don't know if you can see this but I'm opening my my hands that's like I'm inan prayer but it's just opening with all the possibilities of where you want to go and then at some point when you start to go into a field that uh speaks to you that uh that opening like a fan really starts to close and and it becomes one point One Direction right and uh and this may be the journey a symbol of the Journey of individuation but when we talk about uh wisdom in experience it it it tells me that we need to be open right let's not be close to say this is who I am and you define and because our journey as as Immortal Spirits is so long we're just starting to learn who are right this reminds me another uh concept another understanding of you Yuni was um an amazing person in terms of um vision of of he was very very open to because he said that that when we are not open we have a limited uh life you know a perspective few perspectives yeah yeah and he said then Maria when he talks about this unconscience yeah he said that there is wisdom in the unconscious yes yes yeah he talks about a level of unconscious that he named The Objective psychic uhuh and what and he said that we have our personality he will understand that we have two personalities one now limited that he he name it ego this our is a limited personal and we have a personality a wider personality that he name you know so this dialogue between ego there the little one with the large one that it this this this ability to establish this dialogue between these two instance yeah it gives um deep meaning in our lives so he said that when this ego is able to listen to The Voice to the signs so that comes from

is ability to establish this dialogue between these two instance yeah it gives um deep meaning in our lives so he said that when this ego is able to listen to The Voice to the signs so that comes from this unconscious this that comes from this unconscience has also a wisdom but we have to be able to be open to it yeah this is a psychological process yeah so this is about the ability the ego to be humble enough to have the humil humility we say humility yeah humility enough you know to submit to this higher Consciousness yeah but we live in a world in a moment that we must know the truth we put all the energy on ego I know and it's so unfortunate that we we we are not in a position I'm talking about collectively we 8 billion of people in this planet we right we we don't know how good it is to to transcend the control of our egoic constructs and I keep thinking uh when we talk about unconscious um MOSI is that U our unconscious mind they are actually shaped by everything we've been exposed right especially if you think about our uh I don't know our formative years uh as a child the the the familial uh experience the the the the family values our cultural norms for example uh I like you I was born in Brazil I was raised in Brazil and I I moved to the US but my children were born here and I know despite the fact that their parents were Brazilians and that we had a link to our home country would visit Etc I'm sure their cultural norms and even I don't know societal expectations are vastly different from despite also know generational changes but uh uh we are vastly different in in who I am and how our unconscious mind have been exposed I'm I'm actually putting this here this is more of a personal unconscious right a Freudian view of the unconscious but uh then we have the all there is all that transcends this this a formative years and uh and I think this is what we are referencing here correct the the idea that there is a a power that uh connects us all and we just need to be brave enough to

anscends this this a formative years and uh and I think this is what we are referencing here correct the the idea that there is a a power that uh connects us all and we just need to be brave enough to be and humble enough at the same time right so courageous Brave and humble to to see that uh uh we are really all connected and we are all influenced by that unconscious what what your thoughts yeah because we think this this concept UNC conscience is not many think many psychologists think about this concept but in a in different approach so it's very interesting Mar because Yung he has a very particular way of understanding the unconscious he says which which is very close to Joanna d'angeles right they're very connected yeah go ahead yes yes because for Yung uh the psychic has uh these two instance conscience and unconscious but the UNC the unconscious is much more um larger you say yeah yeah and the the conscience so he says that um and there is one thing for Freud for instance conscience is like a deposit of memories traumas Hi family values right all of the yes yeah but for you the unconscious has this level of memories of traumas of everything but it's much more than this yeah he talks about a level that we are all connected and we will say that is a collective Inc conscience and we are all collect all the experience we have is all humanity and in this unconscience we have wisdom yeah that's right but I I'm thinking here just for all of us here together those of you who are here listening to us the the image that comes to my mind is the quite famous Freudian view of the unconscious where he puts the iceberg right which I putting this kind of a uh pyramid that gets really large and it's submersed and that's the unconscious personal unconscious and then what uh Yung brings is that the unconscious is not what is underneath the line of the ocean right but but it's actually the entire ocean yes which is like whoa that's so much larger and and we forget that we tend to forget that we are part of that

not what is underneath the line of the ocean right but but it's actually the entire ocean yes which is like whoa that's so much larger and and we forget that we tend to forget that we are part of that Collective unconscious correct in the conscience there is a lot of things including potentialities values amazing things that we don't know about ourselves so this IND idation process now when we start to get in contact with this inner reality this will lead us to understand love yeah because when we understand each other you you know when we become much more um how can I say it we can accept when you start to accept our difficulties you know when you welcome our difference difficulties we can act like this with the other so this is a journey of love yes this is amazing when we trying to find ourselves we find the others we find the Divine I love it I love what you're saying here it is you know even as we come close to wrapping up our conversation today right about unconditional love let us love let's all remember here that love is not just that feeling right but it's exactly this path this Force if I will that will guide us toward becoming who we really are our truest self right and and I I love that you bring the concept of individ individuation that uh car gusta Yung uh you know brought to us as as this process of integrating everything all of it including the light the en lightened parts of we are but also the shadow all the repressed parts of we are right so when we start to truly Embrace and I'm thinking here uh Mari I'm visualizing the father of the prodical son right when he Embraces the child he Embraces the light of the child that came back home as well as the shadow right the the the the child that left and and quote unquote killed him in his desire to get uh the inheres early so if you think about it um unconditional love right whether from others or even the love that we cultivate within ourselves is truly one of the most important and powerful force in this path toward individuation right

out it um unconditional love right whether from others or even the love that we cultivate within ourselves is truly one of the most important and powerful force in this path toward individuation right because with unconditional law of Mah I see that we are powered we are filled we're giv we're pushed we're guided to break free from all the limitations of anything our past conditionings right our Old Wounds our traumas everything that make the past of who we are or we were into embracing us and and pushing us to what we truly want to become right so I think this is a great segue to get your final thoughts because uh uh my final thought is uh let us all be encouraged and and invited to reflect upon this idea of embracing unconditional love right uh through our relationships through oh self-compassion or simply as you said openness openness to experience open to to see the world and to grow within our ourselves right our own limitations so with that I just say m Lucy any final thoughts before we close today yeah the reason of the heart is different from the reason of the intellect the heart has this amazing amazing capacity to receive to compose to enclude to find a solution when many times our intellect cannot find a solution so we should think about it now that to find this path of love is to include the reason of the heart absolutely and we are not used to to this we are very good with the rational thought thinking judgment and the heart is different yes and this is a very very deep knowledge that many many religions philosophies try to explain to us so and this in terms of psychological understanding is has to be about how we deal with our feelings our inner world love it thank you thank you thank you m Lucy I really appreciate your insights and thank you all of you who tuned in to listen to our episode on as we close the ep the part two of the conversations about embracing unconditional love and um for those of you that uh has not listened to the other episode or this is

in to listen to our episode on as we close the ep the part two of the conversations about embracing unconditional love and um for those of you that uh has not listened to the other episode or this is the first time please please do note that the psychology and spirituality weekly talks are based on the works by Joanna deangeles we hope you're able to perhaps expand your own spirituality Concepts and your knowledge of psychology as we just oppose those two disciplines we also want to take this this moment to thank our sponsors manando Cino the United States Spirits Federation the international spiritualist Council and Amy Brazil which is the Brazilian arm of the medical spiritist association we'll be back next week with another episode so stay tuned thank you everyone I appreciate you being here today bye-bye