Ep 110 - Embracing Unconditional Love - pt1

Hello everyone, welcome to psychology and spirituality a bridge to a better life discussion. During our weekly episodes, we explore this intersection of spirituality and psychology. And as a result, we capture timeless wisdom contained in both fields. I'm your host. My name is Marcia Trojano and I'm just so excited to have with me Mahusi Hens and she's speaking to me from Brazil. Hi Mahuci. How are you doing? Hi Maria. Fine. Thank you. I'm very happy to be here with you. Awesome. Yes. So for those of you who not do not know Mahuci, she is a psychologist, Yungian analyst and a member of the Yunian Institute of Hu Grandidus. That's the very southern tip of Brazil. and she's also a member of the Brazilian Union association is uh known as AJB and the international association for analytical psychology. She holds a post-graduate degree in Yunian clinical psychology and she's also a member of the psychology and spiritism group of ax and ami Brazil. Mahaluci also is amazing because she collaborates in the study of what we do today, right? Which is understand a little bit more about Joanna D'Angelus and the amazing works contained in the psychological series and she does that at Brazil at the also in partnership with the Brazilian spirit federation and Mansando Camille. She's a worker at the spiritist group of in Portalgri Hugen Du. So today I would like for us to talk about this idea of uh embracing unconditional love. We could unpack the the this this topic in many many many episodes but let's just go ahead and get started just for for you Mahuci. We've been in the past few episodes, we've been talking about this amazing parable, the story of the prodigal son. And uh I would like perhaps for us to to take some of the key teachings from that parable because it not only highlights the concept of returning home right physically, spiritually, emotionally, but it also talks about that uh love that the father demonstrates. But before we start because you may not know or may have

ts the concept of returning home right physically, spiritually, emotionally, but it also talks about that uh love that the father demonstrates. But before we start because you may not know or may have forgotten about what is the story, I'm going to just tell all of you the parable of the prodigal son which is the story contained in the Bible written by Luke. It's specifically chapter 15 verses 11 to32 and it's a story about a younger well two two children two sons right but a younger son who asks his father for his inheritance before of course the father had passed away and so he seeks for what he would be duly rightfully receive later in life But he does that and he leaves and uh he goes to a distant country, right? And of course he he just uses or misuses the entire inheritance. When he loses everything, he all of a sudden finds himself in this terrible state of poverty, a state of regret. And it it is at that point right that he realizes, wow, what a mistake I've made. And uh and I would like to talk about it later with you, Mahuci, about the idea of making a mistake, right? Uh what we do with that. But anyways, in in the story, this younger son, he's like, "What to do? I'm hungry, etc., etc." So he decides at that moment when he's at the dip, the the the pit of despair, if you will, he decides to return home and he just hopes with all his heart that he is accepted again as a servant. However, and that's the most beautiful part of the story, his father, right, welcomes him with arms wide open and he shows this unconditional love, unconditional forgiveness. And he even celebrates this this his son's return with a feast. Of course, for any story, there has to be a conflict, right? So meanwhile, while he's getting ready to celebrate the return of his son, the elder son, the older brother, the person who stayed behind, who stayed home, who worked diligently with his father, he now has a whole different set of feelings. He feels resentful. He is jealous especially about his father celebrating

erson who stayed behind, who stayed home, who worked diligently with his father, he now has a whole different set of feelings. He feels resentful. He is jealous especially about his father celebrating his brother's return and he confronts the father and the father explains that the joy in the celebration is due to the son's return from air quote here death he's back to life and this symbolizes the importance of redemption the importance of repentance And of course unconditional love. This parable, this story that Jesus told and was captured by Luke is really one story that emphasizes forgiveness, compassion, and of course, you know, this boundless grace from a loving father. So, Malusia, back to you. Now if we reflect on this to me just an amazing story this parable of the prod prodigal son. How could we perhaps interpret Jesus message which you find it in Luke right when he says my kingdom is not of this world. What is he referring to? Yes. When we are telling this amazing parable, there's a story. I I was thinking about these two sons that are a very good image of the different experience that we face in our lives. Every human being the Angel sometimes says is in universe and but it doesn't matter which path we choose because each of us has his own path. No matter what path we we choose, we have always a lovely father with an unconditional love to receive us to accept us. This uh this image of a unbelving father is a new image of God that we can think that when Jesus came in the time that Jesus came in earth uh he changed this par paradigm. Can you say that paradigm? Yes. Yes. Okay. Uh because before Jesus we had this image of Jave Yave that was a god that demanded he was furious. He he demanded sacrifices and he imposes his law by force. And when Jesus come with this idea that the main the main thing we should learn is love, he changes completely this image. Yeah. Maloi, let me sorry to interrupt, but I I I just the the person that always comes to my mind when we we talk about the

n the main thing we should learn is love, he changes completely this image. Yeah. Maloi, let me sorry to interrupt, but I I I just the the person that always comes to my mind when we we talk about the revolutionary the true revolutionary impact of Jesus' message which is that right Jesus for the first time in history brought the idea to love thy enemy right and um and uh he it was a Joseph Campbell I don't know if you're familiar with Joseph Campbell, but he was a theologian. He studied religion and he brought forth this how important that message is. Loving the other, loving the unknown, loving the enemy. But go ahead. Sorry for the interruption. No, very good. because uh it's important to to to understand and feel this difference because ja I don't know how to pronounce it in English it represents a god that has uh conducted things with power and Jesus is the opposite of this and what is the consequence of this in terms of our inner world Jesus uh says you are free to choose what path you want and I am patient. I can I can wait for you to understand life to understand things. And this parable of the prodigal sons is a it's a the story that tells this. No matter how many mistakes we do, we are all loved. We are loved by this lovely uh this this this father that accept us because he has an understanding much more larger of life. It's interesting Marcia because Yung said that the opposite of love is power. Yes. So and many people Yeah. And many people forget that people we myself included right when we say what is the opposite of love and a lot of responses are it is hatred or even indifference but Jung says no the opposite of love is power that is great great uh that you bring that up because it's important for us to bring that at the forefront of everything we do right Yeah, because when we are talking about power, it involves uh another concept that is the liberty. And when Jesus said when someone askked for help for Jesus always asked before, what do you want me to do for

cause when we are talking about power, it involves uh another concept that is the liberty. And when Jesus said when someone askked for help for Jesus always asked before, what do you want me to do for you? Demonstrating that you are free to choose what you want. And this is the new kingdom. You you are free and you have to discover all the potentials you have that are inside you. I believe in you. I believe you can do choices. You can develop all these potentialities that you have. Uh so uh this parable talks about this and and this kingdom is that we have to find out during all the lives that you have. So this is the in Yes. So, so before you talk about it, I I just wanted to uh for for those of us who are here today listening to to this podcast, right? Uh from a spiritual uh concept and I'm a spiritist. La is also a spiritist, right? The core belief in spiritism is that we are immortal souls and we live one life really but many many different existences. Many people say many lives but it's really many existence because it's one spirit one life that uh uh at sometimes is here in the material dimension and sometimes only in the spiritual dimension but that's the the amazing uh consoling message of spiritism that Jesus always brings when he talks about right my kingdom is not of this world but go ahead No, it's important because uh the main idea is this. We are spirits living a material experience here in this body that we call life. Yeah. When Jesus brings this idea that the kingdom does not belong to this role in my point of view, he's saying uh it's not uh contained just in this material experience you are having now here. But uh you have many many lives so many opportunities in your life to learn to develop yourself and this is a long long long way and I believe you have conditions. So I do not need to tell you everything how you have to behave, how you have to do you are free to choose. Yeah. Your your love your love is unconditional. Right. mean meaning that

ou have conditions. So I do not need to tell you everything how you have to behave, how you have to do you are free to choose. Yeah. Your your love your love is unconditional. Right. mean meaning that uh I don't stop loving you if you do A B or C. It it is transcending all of those conditions. Right. Of course, Nemar said together with this freedom that you have to choose what path we want, it comes with responsibility. Yeah. So this is another point now that in this spiritist idea is that we are responsible for our own path for our cho choices and our task here is to to be more consciousness of the of our conditions and make and good choices that helps us in this process that we call evolution. So um thinking about in this parable of the prodigal son uh the two sons chose different paths one decided the other one decided to go. So the point is that uh it doesn't matter what you choose is how you you learn how you experience this you know and to help you uh to know yourself better. How we face experience that life brings us you know to help us to discover this kingdom that is inside us. Yeah, I see myself um often enough as that prodigal son. Why? Well, I when I was quite young, Maluci, I I left home, right, my home country, our home country of Brazil. And uh and I came to live in the US. And it's a very torturous journey. But it took me a long time, a very very long time to go back home. And only when I went back home and it was almost 10 years after I was here that I could do that full circle the full circle where you find and uh and you are welcomed by that warm embrace of everything because that's when we know this is who we are who I am right while I am in in this foreign country that is now my second home. um my true identity, my true sense of of belonging is with the family, is where I was born. It it is where I was raised. So, it's just very interesting. This parable speaks to me in and there's so many different levels, right, Mucusy? that uh so many uh symbolic references

where I was born. It it is where I was raised. So, it's just very interesting. This parable speaks to me in and there's so many different levels, right, Mucusy? that uh so many uh symbolic references to to the parable to the the two brothers, the one that leaves and and yes, I committed. I made so many mistakes, but I know that if I had stayed, I would also make different but still mistakes. And even physically speaking closer to home, I would still need to return home, right? Yeah. And you know what touchs my heart is the sun that stays Yeah. with Why? Because we see many people in even in our lives. We are many times we are really afraid of life. So we we we want to feel secure. We want security. Yeah. Many times we are afraid of committing mistakes. So we want to do always everything right and sometimes we want more than right. We want perfection. Yeah. And but what is the consequence of this that we can live a life a whole life trying to do everything right living according the law you know but without really really uh feeling in our heart the experience without connection without emotional connection sometimes people arrives I have for therapy and they say well I work for 30 40 years and I cannot remember how was in my youth what I was doing. I cannot remember the experience I had because we trying to do right you know we did uh in uh we did not involve in emotional terms you know so live a life apparently now when you look outside it's everything all right it's perfect we work we had a family had children you know but without really uh enter in experience. I I even I I'm even thinking I don't know if it I'm I'm thinking in the right way. So let me know um when we talk about of course the reptilian brain and uh our um need instinctively instinctually speaking actually um to survive we we have response mechanism right so it's the three Fs many people used to say two Fs the fight or flight and today we call it fight or flight or freeze, the three Fs. And if we correlate those response

e have response mechanism right so it's the three Fs many people used to say two Fs the fight or flight and today we call it fight or flight or freeze, the three Fs. And if we correlate those response mechanism to the primal emotional response, fight would be the anger, right? I'm like, I'm going to fight you because you you you are a threat to my survival. The flight is really the um fearbased response where you you you run away from the situation again because that situation is a threat to all of us. And the freeze, the third, which many animals do, right? They they pretend to be dead. The freeze is that paralysis that usually comes with sadness. So back to what you're saying and I was thinking about it. Uh the the younger son he did not fight the father. There was a some discontent emotionally speaking and he there is a fleeing of the situation. He runs away to a different country, a distant country to to try to be what he's perhaps unable to be in in his father's land. The older son maybe is the one that freezes. He He's sad, but he tries, as you're mentioning, to be that perfect child, right? He is respectful. He's obedient. But perhaps there's this sadness into him or a I don't know if you if you agree with me, maybe this sense of I'm repressing I'm pretending to be dead by repressing all my emotions. And of course this is, you know, he would need some shadow work to to to bring light to to to to what he's repressing. But in the end, he too is not happy. He too needs his father's embrace. Yeah. Yes. Uh the point is not it's not specifically the experience. It's not because he stayed at home that his problem is is he stayed at home. No, it's the way we face the experience. He can have uh he could stay with his father and it it was according with his heart. Well, this is what I really what my soul needs. That's okay. But many we do things basic because fear is the most primary emotion that we have. Yeah. So a fear we will have fear in many m moments of our lives. But there is a fear that

y soul needs. That's okay. But many we do things basic because fear is the most primary emotion that we have. Yeah. So a fear we will have fear in many m moments of our lives. But there is a fear that he how do we say imping in English that blocks that uh um impedes actually right that blocks him to to move. Yeah. So there are parts of us in terms of yian psychology. We are not we we do not we are not just a block of a personality. No we have many aspects in our personality that interact all the time. So we have one person that is has courage wants to go to life. There is another one that has a lot of fear he doesn't want. there is another one that ah perhaps I could go not so far. So and our psyche works in this dynamic. So when we have some energy that blocks our movement on life, this is becomes a problem because we have this psychic energy that is like a river want to come to goes to the ocean you know and if there is something that blocks this energy this brings us illness in in terms of psychological um approach. Yeah. So the is how we face the experience. Yeah. And uh if we if we can keep on in this idea, right? So back to uh us all being immortal souls living a human experience and uh we all fail, right, Musli? We we all uh live through ups and downs and yet that uh vulnerability that uh that uh inability to always stay on course um uh growing growing growing we grow through falling apart. Can we maybe talk a little bit if you don't mind about uh uh how those failures, those experience uh like the younger son in the story can actually shape our consciousness and help us evolve, right? And and what I'm thinking here is how can our mistakes actually lead us to this sense of awakening uh the sense of uh even attaining some wisdom or even self-awareness. Yeah, it's very good reflection Marcia because when we talk about failure or mistakes we all the first idea that we have most of the time is judgment. Yeah. Yeah. And we do not face experience as part of our life. We always have a moral judgment.

when we talk about failure or mistakes we all the first idea that we have most of the time is judgment. Yeah. Yeah. And we do not face experience as part of our life. We always have a moral judgment. And many times this um again the word impede blocks um possibility of um a large idea of of life because in terms of consciousness I think you you have talked uh about it in other programs. our consciousness here in this moment that we live in this planet now it's we increase our consciousness through the conflict. Oh I I love it. I love it. So let's let's just really stop to to reflect what you're saying right all of us in the audience. So we're we're talking about uh consciousness uh or conscious expansion right but uh it's not just failure but conflicts when we are going through some very specific conflict that it's terrible for majority of people right I hate conflict or conflicting situation but that's exactly what's going to make us be better go ahead Musi Because in this level of consciousness that we are, we need good to know about the evil. We need the heart to know about the cold. You know, our psychic works through this opposite. So, but we if uh for for example, let's take a an example. If we have a conflict with um a son uh when we put this in terms of judgment we'll say ah this is a very bad thing I do not want to face it but when we start changing the question is what's the purpose what this conflict want tells about my inner role what why I feel this as a conflict which part of me feels uncomfortable with this has difficult to talk to you what is the threat right what is the threat that somehow I'm perceiving by having this polar opposite for what I want and what I'm getting for example yeah so is uh in terms of um our inner world we know about us when we are in contact with other people and to be in contact with other people to be in relationship it's natural many conflicts will um occur because we are deep people but it depends on what attitude I have

re in contact with other people and to be in contact with other people to be in relationship it's natural many conflicts will um occur because we are deep people but it depends on what attitude I have example if we are in a group it doesn't matter if it's in our in our work in our work or home or leisure any any any circumstances and there is one person that is difficult for me to deal with. Yeah. If we pay attention and we we spend because is it takes time to understand our inner world. what this person uh speaks about me, why is so uncomfortable in in psychological term? It's a projection of myself that I don't want to see it. Correct. Yeah. So, it's the most difficult thing to do is to look at the person that makes me uncomfortable in this case with loving eyes. Because when I love that person, I'm loving myself. Right? So we have know ourselves when said that we have love the other as we love ourselves. He said look at you and pay attention. Yeah. Yeah. But we have we we do not want to face conflict or because this uh we spend energy with this. Many times we are we want to sew things rapidly without reflection. It takes time to work this soul making as there is an inian writer named Vana cast he uses this express soul making this work of soulm means this inner world takes time. Yeah many many time in reflection. I I love it. Uh so soul making it takes time. It it it's like uh baking bread, good bread, or having a child. Old it takes time. It's not instant. And it's just funny. I'm laughing here because we we live in a society of immediate gratification. And we we we if we think about it right, Musi, we've never been as good as we are now. And and uh what I'm talking about is we have resources, we have time, we have uh not only comfort but luxurious comfort and yet it's not enough. We're we just want more and more and that is to um have a sense of fulfillment. And Marluci, I know what you're thinking. No, that's not the way to get fulfillment. you need to to to work on that soul making that

t want more and more and that is to um have a sense of fulfillment. And Marluci, I know what you're thinking. No, that's not the way to get fulfillment. you need to to to work on that soul making that it takes a long time but it's truly truly fulfilling right I wanted to to maybe pivot our conversation if you don't mind um because we were talking about judgment um earlier right and uh and I think um maybe we could talk a little bit about punishment and guilt and and mostly if we talk about uh what's found in in religious dogma, right? And and that is passed on to us perhaps with um sin, punishment, guilt, and those are all of the things that we we find uh actually we all inherited in traditional religious teachings. How could we shift perhaps to be a more compassionate uh understanding of uh this this sense of the sacred the sense of the divine the sense of spirituality in all of us. Yeah. uh all this experience now that all of us as humanity face it it was very strong now this this aspect of punishment hell sin all of in our collective unconsciousness as said in this sense I think Jesus is very up to date because he says Well, the message that I brings uh has nothing to do with guilt, punishment, sin. The message is about joy, kindness, love, compassion. But this is not a formal religion. This is not a dogma. This is important to to separate it Marcia because many people can have a formal uh kind of spirituality much connected to a formal religion but cannot have it does not means that this this person will have a a really a sincere a hard connection with the divine. Yeah. And the opposite is true because you can have a a a very connected uh sense of divine without being inserted in a formal uh religion. And we do need, right, we do need somehow as we, and I'm speaking really broad here, our entire uh humanity, if you will, we could move from a quite ritualistic practice to what you're talking about. You're referring to this deeper connection or even a a very personal

ally broad here, our entire uh humanity, if you will, we could move from a quite ritualistic practice to what you're talking about. You're referring to this deeper connection or even a a very personal relationship with the divine. I I keep thinking here um I I don't know if you know this about me, Mahusi, but I I did go to school for my masters in art history and uh and uh I I not only studied art history, but I I studied medieval art history and specifically early Christians, right? So very interesting. Uh never worked a day in that field but it was you know it was big part of my life in my formative uh thought processes. But one of the things that I had to read and this is oh my goodness too long ago was the apocryphal um gospel of St. Thomas right? So very interesting because in that gospel, not included in the Bible that we read today, but he brings that idea of a personal relationship with God. And I love it. It It's such a strong and again perhaps even revolutionary way of thinking us individual souls, right? We all are very unique in our own journeys and how do we have a very special and important connection with our father. Yeah. Yes. is neart we see and so the the formal religions I think are very very important ritual but it's a way it's a way to help us to connect divine but many people think that the rituals and the dogmas and the formal religions are the divine no are the ways paths to to arrive like the expression right sorry to to interpret it's the expression question of how I connect to the divine. Does this make sense? This is how I my words here. How uh my religion is the path as you said but it also equals my expression of my faith which is that actually the bond between me and my creator. Yes. But every people will feel or it in a different way. I have a friend was raised Catholic um family and since he was very very young he loved to go to the church to church and all the symbols that appears in the Catholic uh rituals for him h has a very deep

ave a friend was raised Catholic um family and since he was very very young he loved to go to the church to church and all the symbols that appears in the Catholic uh rituals for him h has a very deep um meaning. And when he talks about it, you feel that for him this has meaning. Yeah. And you have another person that will will will participate in the same ritual and this doesn't mean anything for this person. I I have I have to tell a little bit about myself here. I a moment of confession. So maybe when you talk about this person who who really drives meaning from in this case Catholic uh the the all the the icons and the symbolic elements. I too I I went to I'm from a Catholic family. I went to Catholic schools etc etc. I wanted to be a nun growing up, by the way. And and and there was a a sense of such peace going to church, right? And and then I broke up with God. I'm like, "No more. I I don't want to talk to you." And so the this is the the linear uh sequence of events, right? So very very um Catholic and then I break up with God and then I start to study art history. So in in my studies of art history I had to read the Bible, read the Bible, read the Bible, read the Quran, read the Bhagavagita. I read so many sacred texts because it was part of history of art. how to to um pictorially or sculpturally etc. uh talk about those the the content of those texts. But anyways, in the midst of this Barloo, this is I'm embarrassed and and laughing at the same time, but I was still broken up with God and I I went to Italy. I spend uh a month there. It was a part of a residency for for my school and uh I go to St. Peters and uh you're going to laugh because it's so it's still vivid, right? I go to St. Peters and I go to mass on a Sunday and it's the whole spectacle. They had three different children's choir singing beautifully and they uh I think uh uh I may be exaggerating but this is what brings to my memory because this was long time ago. uh I would say uh 20 uh cardinals and uh and priests from

choir singing beautifully and they uh I think uh uh I may be exaggerating but this is what brings to my memory because this was long time ago. uh I would say uh 20 uh cardinals and uh and priests from everywhere in the world and there is this enormous incense going through right as they come and I'm looking at all of it and it was just most magnificent moment of my life and all I can think of is pure theater. I discounted all the symbolic element of each each attribute of that moment. I dismissed it. I discounted. I rationalize with this is theater. This is manipulation. This is oh oh I said all of it. And then I sit down and um it was quite beautiful moment because we had a priest from different countries speaking in different languages a little bit. And after three, four or five, there comes this man from Africa, this priest and he speaks not in Italian, not in Latin, he speaks in Portuguese, our native tongue, right? And right in that moment, I boohoo cried. I broke down. And all of it, all of that energy, the the psychosphere, all of the connection to the sacred just embraced me and I broke down. And from that moment, my faith was restored. It shows us that divine is everywhere. Yes. Yes. Formally or not, right? Formally or not. But it's there. That connection. Yes. Now the divine is in nature is in our daily experience. It's but have to be s sensible to to perceive it to to feel it. I love poem poet po po po po po po po po po po po po po po po po po po po poet roomie I don't know if you if you read yes all his poetry is about this connection with the beloved as he calls God and one poem that he says I am at home wherever I am and this home that roomie refers is the contact with the divine Because and this is the love message now of Jesus. Uh so he says now give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God. It means that you have many levels of conscience in your existence. And we have this spiritual spiritual aspect of our life that we forget because we are we we put

esar and to God what belongs to God. It means that you have many levels of conscience in your existence. And we have this spiritual spiritual aspect of our life that we forget because we are we we put much focus on this material uh experience. Yeah. So unfortunately yeah amazing world with everything with all this progress that you are talking about and on the other hand we have a human being empty inside and we have depression panic anxiety how do you say anxiety yes all this because we love this connection it's it's all about love and it's all about connection Lucy, you're going to be surprised, but we are at time. I love our conversation, but I wanted to just bring it back to all of us because today in our conversation, we we talked about the importance of I guess surrendering to love, right? embracing love as we journey back home, however long the journey is. And we also talked a little bit about the power of unconditional love and even the psychological aspects of healing and u quite honestly the ultimate path to joy and self- fulfillment is when we we're back home. Right. But Mahusi before we close today maybe you want to share some final thoughts or message for example what advice would you give to someone who feels stuck in the past and struggling to find the courage to return to their true self. Yeah. We should not fear life. Jesus said another I'd like to finish with this. I came that for you to have life and life in abundance. Yes. Say this. Yes. What is what does it means then to live our life in a whole we we should not fear because we are really really loved by him but we do not believe in it. Yeah. Yeah. This all our our fears, our guilt, everything we carry in our heart, we are very very loved by him and we should believe in it. Yeah. So not fear life. Life is um amazing experience opportunity that we have to find out this all the potentials that we have in our spirit in our soul. And I think one challenge Mara that we face in this moment is we are afraid of

m amazing experience opportunity that we have to find out this all the potentials that we have in our spirit in our soul. And I think one challenge Mara that we face in this moment is we are afraid of our feelings to get in contact with this inner uh reality. And we should not because um this life in abundance that Jesus talks is to live our life as a whole and embrace everything that we have problems, sorrows, everything. Because the loving um logic that Jesus brings is everything is connected. Everything has a purpose. And um we are not alone. Never. Yeah. We're loved. We're not alone. And everything has a purpose. Love it. I want to say thank you. Thank you my Lucy for your insights. Thank you for all of you who are here who tuned in to to listen to this episode. And for all of us perhaps who joined this conversation, I would like to leave a thought, right? How can we all, you, me, Mluci, all of us, how can we all begin to practice not just unconditional love, but forgiveness both toward ourselves and toward the other in our day-to-day love lives. Be embrace the idea that Jesus brought to love thy enemy. But this is this is fun to talk. But um you may not have been with us before. And if this is the first time you are listening to our program, please take a note that the psychology and spirituality weekly talks are based on the works by Joanna D'Angelus. And uh we do hope you were able to perhaps uh expand your own spirituality concepts by juxtaposing them in this psychological lens. We also want to thank our sponsors man, the United States Spiritist Federation, the International Spiritist Council and Brazil, the Brazilian arm of the medical spiritist association. We'll be back next week with another episode, so stay tuned. Thank you everyone and bye-bye.