Ep 115 - Integrating the Shadow: A Journey to Wholeness

Hello everyone. Welcome to today's episode of psychology and spirituality, a bridge to a better life discussion. During our weekly episodes, we explore this intersection between spirituality and psychology. And I I'm so happy to say we end up at the end of each episode capturing some wisdom that is found in in either field, right? But uh for those of you who do not know me, I'm your host Marciao and I'm so excited to have with me Peter Hayes to go about this episode. So Peter, today we're proposing um to dive deep into some really really powerful concepts in psychology and uh um spirituality, right? But uh we want to to go over the idea of integrating or the integration of the self. So as we know everyone um Carl Jung called Gustav Jung the Swiss uh uh the founder of psychoanalysis right the the analytical psychology forgive me uh but Kung he is one just one of the greatest minds in psychology and uh he explored the idea of persona right and the shadow and that we usually including him would see those uh two concepts as polar opposite areas of the human psyche. So uh let's let's just talk about Peter about those concepts before we talk. And I just wanted to let everyone know that Peter who's here with me today, he's going to help us look at how these ideas brought uh to to us by Carl Jung, they are really reflected in some interesting spiritual teachings and they all including Joanna the Angels obviously, but they're all about self-discovery, about forgiveness, about transformation, but Peter, before we we we really start, I just want to ask why does it matter for us today to talk about it? Why is it important to even understand or reconcile those opposing forces within ourselves? How could we perhaps um begin to integrate them in a way that can lead to psychological health, emotional balance, even spiritual wholeness or planitude, favorite word by Joanna D'Angelus. So with that I just wanted to um you know to to to come to to a a a brief moment of definitions sorry grind there's

l balance, even spiritual wholeness or planitude, favorite word by Joanna D'Angelus. So with that I just wanted to um you know to to to come to to a a a brief moment of definitions sorry grind there's grounding to us to to continue today because um Joanna the anggeles in in one of her books she states that Jung specifically considered the persona and the shadow as collect classic opposites, right? And uh and she says that he expressed uh they're expressed in the ego as polarities within a total vision of the psyche. And I'm like, whoa, Joanna, it's a lot of content in just one one statement. So maybe we can start defining them um break them down, right? And it will be for me and the audience. So first I would like to to bring to you Peter um the understanding of what Jung means by total vision of the psyche right. So Jung uh his vision of the psyche refers to this his view right that the human mind is a complex multiaceted structure composed of different layers right so it's one human mind but there layers in in it there many different facets and uh Peter in his vision The ego would represent the conscious part of the psyche, the I could say the eye or uh myself, my self-awareness, right? But beneath the ego would Jung talks about how it the unconscious lies just beneath. And when he talks about the unconscious he means the personal unconscious as well as the collective unconscious. Just for everybody to to remember, Freud and uh in his partnership with Jung, they talked a lot about the personal personal unconscious, right? But Jung really brought to us the concept of collective unconscious. But despite all of it, the personal unconscious um would contain oh our forgotten memories, right? the repressed experience and the collective unconscious would hold uh and this is fascinating topic. We're not going to talk today but it's fascinating to me the ideas of universal archetypes and those archetypes shape our experience humanity right all of human experience across time and across

opic. We're not going to talk today but it's fascinating to me the ideas of universal archetypes and those archetypes shape our experience humanity right all of human experience across time and across culture. So a an example is uh the the the mother archetype, the father archetype, so on so forth. And uh it's it's interesting that within this vision um then we have to think about the persona again and the shadow as the two fundamental elements that uh make up different dimensions of our psyche. each one are representing those opposing forces that eventually will be integrated uh into this planitude this psychological wholeness. So Peter coming back to you for help. Can you come here and perhaps define what does Yung mean by persona and how does it truly relate with the self? With the I'm sorry, not with the self, with the ego. Well, thank you for having me back here. It's a pleasure. Um, persona uh is according to Carl Young and it's a concept that Carl Young coined is it's essentially the way we come across in public. It is the societ it's the mask that we may wear or the image that we project of ourselves. I always put my hand in front of me Peter when I when I say persona. It's this this mask, right? Go ahead. Mask. Yeah. and and everyone Peter has a background in theater so he's perfect to talk about persona right Peter well the persona is a way that we present ourselves to other our fellow human beings the way we uh present ourselves in society and the the reason we develop a persona is it it's influenced by our families it's influenced by the culture we're in by the social values that we grew up and so forth. And the persona is a way in which we learn how to be acceptable to others. Um presumably most of us are concerned about that. It's a kind of adaptive uh process that we go through in order to um not only be accepted by others, but I think you could say it's a way that we protect ourselves. So the persona that we have, it can be generally a positive kind of

ss that we go through in order to um not only be accepted by others, but I think you could say it's a way that we protect ourselves. So the persona that we have, it can be generally a positive kind of persona which we come across a certain way that people seem to like. However, the persona might also be a way of adapting that is not so positive. Maybe we're a little too consiliatory to others and will do or act in almost any way to please others. And one of the things Young warned about is that we may become so in uh embedded within our persona, the mask, that we're actually losing a sense of who we are. So absolutely the persona is important in terms of our development but it's not uh a mode of behavior that we can live with constantly especially if it if we're divorcing ourselves from our deeper selves from our truer more authentic selves. So it's Yeah. No, no, I was going to say what comes to my mind here is what we think about almost like the social filter, right? So perhaps the the the persona of I'm talking about myself, right? a woman at my age uh living in this this country today may not be the same persona that I would have uh adopted uh or adapted to uh as the days of my great grandmother or my great my grandmother or even my mother, right? those uh uh gender uh related activities or attitudes change with time and and so do the personas or even if you think about it Peter uh the idea of what was a family right in the let's say 50s changed dramatically in the 60s and changed again 70s 80s today's right and and it's very interesting Because from that perspective you can see that it it is intrinsically um contextualized to the culture and and to to the times right the the context by which we are inserted to. So for me to be considered uh I don't know we we we had a discussion uh about a week or so ago Peter and we had was really interesting uh we had uh uh folks from different this is at work but different parts of the world so we had somebody from South Africa uh

scussion uh about a week or so ago Peter and we had was really interesting uh we had uh uh folks from different this is at work but different parts of the world so we had somebody from South Africa uh somebody from Ireland, somebody from Canada, somebody from England, somebody from u uh the Netherlands and uh couple of people from different parts of the United And the the the discussion was about is it the helicopter parents and now they're bringing about the lawn more the lawn more parent. I never heard of this term, but those are the parents that pave the way for the children instead of the children learn learning to to pave the way themselves, which changes the uh so-called uh what is to be a good parent in this new uh set of expectations for today, right? versus when I or you Peter were children, right? Uh or or early parents, I don't know. But it's very interesting how that idea of persona, that filter that uh and the masks, right? The behaviors that are expected shift with time, right? when you were talking before about how you as a woman might be today versus say the time of your great-g grandandmother, you know, um well, I do have a background in theater and I was thinking about a play that I did some work on if I remember at one point. It was a a a play reading I think and it was written by a woman and the line in it which was not she was criticizing this attitude but but she said in the line a good woman dissembles and you know in other words she was criticizing this idea that in order to be uh an acceptable woman you have to always you know defer to everybody else. And so she was challenging that idea. Yeah. Whereas perhaps in a well I don't know about perhaps but in a different time period that might have been the expectation. Yeah. And and it's difficult right but I'm not saying this is no apology to uh this behavior that behavior. It's just the idea that uh uh the the persona that we all mostly uh unconsciously adopt. uh sometimes it is conscious it is that uh public figure

this is no apology to uh this behavior that behavior. It's just the idea that uh uh the the persona that we all mostly uh unconsciously adopt. uh sometimes it is conscious it is that uh public figure right that's uh how you Peter see me how I see you and and it's that uh perhaps curated or edited facade uh and this is our best effort to to prove ourselves to be the the the most the best example of the person uh within the constraints of what is society and we could talk a lot about uh marginalized individuals uh from that viewpoint. We could talk about many different things but I think the the most important thing is to to know that there it's not bad or good. It just is a persona is a mechanism um that exists within the the egoic construct so that we can be prepared to the external world to be what is expected of me. So as a as a as a child uh there's a set of expectations in terms of behaviors that are repressed or or you know uh uh controlled if you will through education through uh many different things but then as you grow we transition into a different persona right maybe now I am a student at a college and then uh perhaps the next persona would be I'm I'm now a a spouse of somebody else uh and then I'm a mother and so on so forth. So it's very interesting how um we we shift and we don't even realize but we do nevertheless. Right. Right. I think you touched on an important point about the persona is neither good nor bad. I mean because when we say persona and then a common way to describe it is the mask that we have. Yes. Well that sounds negative right? Oh we're being phony. We're hiding. and so forth, but it may very much be this is what we need in order to cope to uh to survive. And as you said, it may be unconscious. It may be somewhat conscious, very conscious as well. Um and so it's an important part of us developing ourselves into into who we are. Yes. Yes. At the same time, it's also, you know, how do we actually reach our authentic selves? Absolutely. And

well. Um and so it's an important part of us developing ourselves into into who we are. Yes. Yes. At the same time, it's also, you know, how do we actually reach our authentic selves? Absolutely. And that's really the the topic at hand, right, Peter? How do I uh while I'm aware that uh this these right personas and we may have several um they are mechanisms by which I can create that sense of belonging. So, it's really part of us as bioosocial beings, right? But inherent in me being this, I'm putting my hand up, Peter, on on one mask, right? Versus that. Uh there's some aspects inherently in the the idea of a persona that it is suppressed, right? because it's no longer 3605 um degree 360 degrees sorry of who I am as an authentic multifaceted being um I I really need to to suppress uh let's say the laziness of me when I am a mother right and uh I don't know I'm just picking up things here but anyways once you you you you craft that persona quite well. it it it there's a movement uh toward repressing and the idea that uh that exists which is the opposite and I'd like to maybe bring up here uh the definition uh Peter of the the the polar opposite as we we could say of persona which is the shadow right so persona is how I show up right am I always smiling but what about my days that I'm sad do I repress those for example, right? But the other side of it is the shadow which really is um representation of my unconscious specifically my repressed uh the areas that are repressed within myself. The hidden aspects of my personality that my ego right uh and my persona deny, reject, etc. P their persona grata, right? And uh these aspects um may include for example uh all those instincts or instinctive response to an event or they represent my my true desires, right? I I I really uh want to be I don't know, I'm I'm thinking here of an example. I want to be the CEO of this company which means I may need to be very very um competitive etc etc but within my work group I am very uh team player etc. So those are

I'm thinking here of an example. I want to be the CEO of this company which means I may need to be very very um competitive etc etc but within my work group I am very uh team player etc. So those are incompatible if you will. Therefore I repress my desire right or it can be my fears. Uh it can be any type of quality that as I mentioned before my social context has classified or categorized as not acceptable. Um so for example those are good examples for me. my mind could be uh aggression or or even vulnerability, right? In in there's many um areas of work that to show up open and vulnerable is something that is really incompatible to the function that we have we have for example. So those areas regardless of what they are and they can be anything uh that is repressed those areas that uh are part of the shadow are really difficult to acknowledge. There's something within them that is threatening your own uh ability to be successful. Right? So if we think about it Peter how would the shadow relate to the ego? Right? Again uh we talk about ego as the conscious part of you know of one's psyche and the shadow exists in the unconscious but it is part of the overall psyche. So if you think about it the ego which is our our uh interesting uh immature uh friend I think this is how I see it. uh our ego typically will repress or avoid or hide all those shadow aspects because they are indirect conflict with my idealized self-image, right? That image that somewhere in our mind it says, "Oh, this is how I show up and this is the the best." So, let's pretend this is uh an Instagram, right? and you only um post in your Instagram with filters or at a diff an angle that shows your best side. That's the ego. The ego. Just kidding. But and the shadows all the in the in the um uh delete box of your photos, right? No, not my best self. Let's delete delete. Delete. The fact is we are all all of it. we are this composite image, right? And so the interesting component here uh and I think is is the

r photos, right? No, not my best self. Let's delete delete. Delete. The fact is we are all all of it. we are this composite image, right? And so the interesting component here uh and I think is is the area that is really interesting, Peter, is the fact that um persona and and ego, right? Those uh create this tension, right? If you think about the ego is the conscious self and the sha shadow is the unconscious self and so they are there's a do a polarity or a duality between the two of them right but at the end of the day we all are in our evolutionary journey right all of us uh live in this duality good and evil bad uh and good uh uh tall or short. I'm just thinking of external attributes here. But those are any type of a dual uh opposite or dual nature of that resides in us. Uh but at some point we're going to integrate and integrating means accepting, loving, forgiving and uh uh reaching that true authentic nature of who we we want to be. Right? So integrating. Yeah. Mhm. In this case, when we think of spiritual progress and we think of integration, yes, we're not talking about eradicating the shadow if even if that were possible. But this idea that somehow I can have no negativity ever at all that somehow it must be completely stricken from my very being. Yeah. My understanding is that's not the case. It's more as you've been I think suggesting having it more in balance in some way. Yeah. And and the the funny thing here is the concept uh Peter that the ego becomes this mediator between the persona which we can call it the social self and the shadow the rejected self right the hidden self. So it is within the the ego itself that is that uh mediator uh hiding or highlighting the other. And it's just very interesting this whole idea because if we think about it right um the conflict that is inherent in in this situation uh requires uh perhaps the this mediator we're calling the ego to uphold certain ideals, right? And at some point the ego must recognize what it's been

e conflict that is inherent in in this situation uh requires uh perhaps the this mediator we're calling the ego to uphold certain ideals, right? And at some point the ego must recognize what it's been repressing. So that's where it comes out eventually, right? These uh I love when we we call it this uh I can't believe I said that. It was the the proverbial Freudian slip or some things that just they keep popping up or or or when we talk about the the very prudish person, right? Uh and they get drunk and boom, everything that was very loose. Yeah. Yeah. Or and this is a conversation that I just had it not so long ago. Um so interesting um with the on the topic somehow was the idea and this is an older woman talking about um um the social filters that we we've put in our societies and those are not bad right uh we're discussing about unconscious bias and how we our mind creates biases and those are egoic construct to to help ourselves classify by good bad right and and then she says interesting enough in the subject of uh um senile dementia or even Alzheimer where uh uh and and she's from Britain but she was talking about how everyone has a a racist grandma and I thought it was so funny like a racist grandma and immediately Peter I I my mind went to the beginning of my career. I mean, this is over 30 years ago, right? Uh where I was working with a much much older uh head of the company where he made comments. They're like, "What? I I I can't I can't believe you're saying that." But if you think about when this person was born and what were those social norms or or um accepted behaviors, that comment was completely okay, but not 30 years ago, right? Well, I mean, you know, speaking of theater, um, vaudeville was a popular form of entertainment in the United States that began around the 1860s, 1870s after the Civil War ended and it became it was one of those forms of theater that kind of created the chain like the theater chain like the movie chain. So Lowe's Theater for instance

the 1860s, 1870s after the Civil War ended and it became it was one of those forms of theater that kind of created the chain like the theater chain like the movie chain. So Lowe's Theater for instance used to be a vaudeville circuit and you know famous individuals like Bob Hope, the Marx Brothers, the Three Stooges, all of them came out of vaudeville and vaudeville was meant to be quick entertainment short skits and so forth. It also was sometimes deeply racist. you know, vaudeville some there was the blackface for instance and all the things that that would make people uncomfortable today. But the point that about that era and the I remember uh reading about this in a book that I enjoyed on vaudeville, it made the point that vaudeville was racist because the United States was racist. People were openly racist. You know, 100 plus years ago, nobody thought anything about that would be wrong to, you know, make fun of people because of their ethnicity and so forth in ways that today people would would uh, you know, say is unacceptable. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, the social norms have changed. So, not only did we all have, you know, probably I shouldn't say the racist grandparents, but maybe even earlier than that, you know, or more recent generations. It was just common for people. I mean, there were people who just didn't even occur to them that there was something wrong with this attitude. I I love it. So, so what can we what can we talk now that can enlighten this this idea of um integrating the persona in and the shadow to become a more authentic person? Is there a story? I know there are many stories uh that I I I like to to follow for for example uh uh Nelson Mandela, right? The idea of uh a person that had a very strong um persona, right? Uh before he went to to jail for 27 years and and tortured, but he surfaces as pretty much a a different person. So there was in this in this journey that he lost that part of himself, right? He resurfaces as this amazing uh reconstructed um and and heroic new

but he surfaces as pretty much a a different person. So there was in this in this journey that he lost that part of himself, right? He resurfaces as this amazing uh reconstructed um and and heroic new person. What are what are maybe some stories that we can talk about that can exemplify this idea of losing oneself who we were right to then through whatever break of before and after the transitional point you come back you return to now look at yourself but now with no longer with a persona or a mask but now with a a more much more authentic uh view of who we are. Um well, do you know the movie Platoon? Yes. Uh Oliver Stone did. Okay. There's elements of that in that movie. uh not necessarily the positive transition, but he starts off as a soldier in the Vietnam War who is kind of a idealist, you know, signed up, felt, thought he ought to serve. And as he encounters more and more the cynicism, um it, you know, at some point it's much more aggressive side emerges in the film. And there's these two guys in the movie, I forget the names. One of them was William Defo's character and they're both strong, rugged individuals, but you know, one is more of a benevolent type and the other is more of a of a, you know, the shadow type, if you will. Yeah. And in that movie, the benevolent is killed by the shadow character, as it were, and then eventually the protagonist kills the shadow character in that film. And in doing so, there is a kind of merging of himself. It's not absolutely clear by the end where he might go next, but as he's at the very end of the movie after a major battle in which he finally kills the antagonist of the movie, um he's flying up in a helicopter away from the the battle scene and leaving uh the Vietnam War and presumably is going to go home soon. and he's kind of in a um in shock, is it word? Yeah. Yeah. And and yet something is definitely not the same, you know, as he was writing to and and throughout the movie he's writing letters to his grandmother. So he's um

a um in shock, is it word? Yeah. Yeah. And and yet something is definitely not the same, you know, as he was writing to and and throughout the movie he's writing letters to his grandmother. So he's um you know, talks about what life is like as a soldier in this jungle, in this war, and so forth. And at the end of it, there is this feeling that he's going to have to find a way to begin again. That the way he was at the beginning is simply gone in many ways or it's it's been reconfigured somehow. He's managed to um there has been an integration in it. Uh is it a positive integration? Yes and no. um he brought out his more aggressive side, you know. Can can I say what I remember about the movie? Sure. It's um because it's very interesting that you're struggling with the word, right? How to describe the the one that comes back and to me it's disillusionment, right? He he starts the movie with a very almost naive look into what the experience of war was and came back now disillusioned. Uh as in all the the the horrific um uh the horrific uh experiences woke him up to the brutality and the brutality that perhaps he did not know existed within himself. Right. So it it's it's a more mature scarred Yeah. yet a more authentic uh integral person, right? Because the naive self that that he that was his persona in the beginning and it wasn't a a persona he could live with throughout his entire life. Yeah. And and and this is a good point, right? Uh um we and I I love Joseph Campbell in his studies on the hero, right? The journey of the hero. faces. Yes. And and it's it's to me it's that idea that the the hero starts very weak and and not well prepared perhaps, but the courage to confront all that there is out there exists and and I think it's it's incredible if we think about it. We are all heroes, right? If we think in terms of uh the the the journey of the immortal soul, the immortal spirit, we are going incarnation after incarnation or or life after life if you if you want

We are all heroes, right? If we think in terms of uh the the the journey of the immortal soul, the immortal spirit, we are going incarnation after incarnation or or life after life if you if you want to talk about it or existence after existence. uh coming to to to see new new experiences and and and facing with courage facing with the idea that what you've had in the past and I'm putting my my hands in the back to the back here because it's all that precedes me today all my experience uh good bad or whatever but they make who I am and they give me the mechanism to keep moving to forging on but as I go through another challenge or even another source of pain Peter it it is preparing me for the next right right going back to the ego the ego is a force of our existence a force of nature if you will it can be positive or negative you know if we have a distorted ego then we may indulge in egoistic type behavior and so forth But when we talk about the way the persona is used to adapt to certain situations, environments, people etc. that's a function of the ego, it might be for good reasons. It might be for positive reasons. The way in which we bring out our shadow. So, like in the end of Platoon, you know, he finally kills the soldier who sort of is the personification of of cynicism and nastiness and everything else. Yeah. And he not only shoots the guy, but he shoots the guy when the guy's wounded and can't really defend himself and he eggs him on to do it. Says, "Kill me." And then he does. Um, so that's not, you know, something we think of as terribly positive. It's not positive. But at the same time, he needed I I say this with some trepidation, but he did need to go through that because he had to find that shadow side of himself and bring it out in such a way that it doesn't uh push him around later on in life. Yeah. But yeah, I was going to ask you why do you think um and this is again back to to Jung's concepts. Why do you think that uh this inner process of confronting and accepting our shadow so

in life. Yeah. But yeah, I was going to ask you why do you think um and this is again back to to Jung's concepts. Why do you think that uh this inner process of confronting and accepting our shadow so important for our psychological maturity, our spiritual maturity? Well, first of all, it's there. It's part of who we are. And when we are not conscious of parts of our shadow or even what it might be, then that's where the persona can take over to the our own detriment. In other words, I'm so afraid of my own negativity. I'm so afraid of my shadow that I'll do anything to project this image. no matter how dishonest it is, but I'll project this image of being something that I'm not. So, as an example, let's say the shadow is I have a lot of anger, a lot of rage, but I'm always kind and benevolent on the surface and I try to make everyone think that I'm, you know, the epitome of of Buddhist tolerance or what have you. And yet, there's this rage underneath. Well, am I t tapping into that negativity, acknowledging it, not being afraid of it, but don't let it control me either. So, I'm not suggesting that even if we have anger within us, it means we should just, you know, express it however we wish. That's not the point. The point is is that we don't hide from it or be afraid of it. Um it's important that we acknowledge our you know the part of our shadow that we're conscious of. Um can we be 100% conscious of our shadow? Maybe. I don't know. I probably but at least we can make make ourselves more conscious of our shadow so that we can then learn to live with it and not have it uh control us. And when we talk about integration, balance and so forth, it's it's um you know putting well I'll put I'll put this out there. It's in some ways putting our shadow, our negativity to more positive use. Yes. Meaning that do we need anger? Sometimes we do. Sometimes, let's say we're having a problem with somebody and we don't like how they're treating us. Well, it's positive if we acknowledge

ive use. Yes. Meaning that do we need anger? Sometimes we do. Sometimes, let's say we're having a problem with somebody and we don't like how they're treating us. Well, it's positive if we acknowledge what it is about their behavior we don't like. And once we're conscious of it, then the next question is, how do I handle this? Do I blow up at the person? Do I get very aggressive? Or do I find a calm and more compassionate way to confront that person? So, I'm channeling anger in a positive sense to try to make a change or at least encourage a discussion rather than just, you know, blow up because they make me angry. Yeah. So I I always I always think Peter on the the three primal most primal emotions or emotional response, right? And they all risen from um the instinctive need to to survive. So the three Fs, right? So fight or flight or freeze and how those instinctive response to a threat can be looked at from a emotional response as in fight would be anger flight which is based on fear right and the freeze is when you you you completely stop and that can be um a metaphor for uh um depression or sadness that leads to to in in in all of those things. And a pathological um uh heightened expression would be uh depression, anxiety, right? And uh um aggression without measure. But those regardless if it's pathological those are basic those are basic elements uh that oh by the way is not um exclusive to human beings but the entire heritage yeah so it's important for us to understand and I I love to to see if for example uh uh sadness uh or depression melancholy is something that we cannot be because the the the idea of success is the the the the the uh super amazing smiling face that uh um uh marketing poses as the the um especially the youth of today. They're all laughing and dancing and and and and having that uh uh great sense of belonging and and and so the social element, right? And unfortunately life is the opposite of that. Today we are dealing with uh a younger generation that is uh fraught

aving that uh uh great sense of belonging and and and so the social element, right? And unfortunately life is the opposite of that. Today we are dealing with uh a younger generation that is uh fraught with anxiety and fraught with um difficulties with mental well-being, right? And and being able to to feel just relaxed. We are so constrained with so much expectation today that and it's not just one mask. It's so many I'm thinking a juggle juggling of masks because there's so many different expectations at any given moment, right? This response for this is something versus that and and how do we manage that? And we can only manage through um really looking and being authentic, right, Peter? Um, it sounds like the persona that's out of alignment. Yes. The persona is unbalanced as it were. Yes. Because I don't think Young was saying that persona is completely bad. I mean, it's it's a part of who we are, right? So, we need it. Yeah. And when we think about integration between the persona and the shadow, it is what you were talking about before. It's about survival. Yeah. But it's um so in the case of the pressures that young people are feeling, if they feel like they have to juggle all these different mass and all these different personas um that that's a lot of self-induced pressure unfortunately. Yeah. Unfortunate. We we we understand it and uh and it's very difficult for all of us all of us who are parents or siblings or you know um not may not even be an immediate family right but uh in in in those groups of that we're part of if we see that level of anxiety it it just is very difficult and uh if I were uh to to just uh provide that warm embrace that the readings by Joanna the Angels brings to us is the the fact that we we all need to be aware of it, right? And aware of almost the unfairness, right? Unfairness because it's just too much for us to juggle. But uh to at a minimum to understand that there um may be opposites within those polarities within ourselves and that the

the unfairness, right? Unfairness because it's just too much for us to juggle. But uh to at a minimum to understand that there um may be opposites within those polarities within ourselves and that the best way to emerge successfully, if you will, is to recognize that they are and really understand that those constructs, those uh social constructs are there because It's for us to to be better prepared to to to be in this context. But that the context shifts, right? And those ancestral, if you will, uh burdens, they will they should be lessened as we mature. Um I I think the uh if I were to quote uh Jonah Dangers Peter I would say uh there are really amazing lessons when we decide to to be indeed the hero which is have the courage to go through the selfdiscover journey and really deep dive do a deep dive into uh looking at my true identity. Right. and the true purpose of this earthly journey, if you will. What is the true meaning of our quote unquote pilgrimage? And um and uh the hint here is it would be a waste if we are here just to meet the demands of the latest Fed, right? The truth is we're here because we we want to recognize those conflicts and um the awareness of the the the the need for meaning and significance of this existence because it's one of many in this journey through immortality. Yeah. You know, I was just thinking I um I grew up with some people that I knew who struggled with alcoholism. And I remember one person uh not a relative who was talking about the anxiety this person used to have when she would have like guest parties and people coming over and everything that everything had to be perfect. You know, the setting, everything had to be just right. And she finally reached a point where she said, "No, it doesn't have to be perfect." Yeah. And it was liberating for her because speaking of the persona, she wasn't so afraid of, you know, having flaws that god forbid somebody might notice or god forbid the table isn't set just right and everything's

liberating for her because speaking of the persona, she wasn't so afraid of, you know, having flaws that god forbid somebody might notice or god forbid the table isn't set just right and everything's perfectly colorcoded or whatever it is. And yeah, when we going again going back to the idea that we always have to please everybody else. No, we do not. Um, that doesn't mean we aren't in doesn't mean we want to just be chronically indifferent to everybody else. But, you know, when Joan Angelus talks about Jesus, she makes the point that when he was abandoned, maligned, and ostracized, it didn't change his authentic self. he emerged from it and in many ways he was more free than he was before. Yes. So it's that idea that um you know part of what it means to be an authentic self is that we are truly comfortable in our own skin with who we are and that includes both our flaws as well as our attributes. And I love it. Love it. need 100% validation from everybody around us in order to feel like we matter because Oh, thank you. No, thank you. Thank you for your beautiful words. Uh we are at the end of our time today, Peter. And I just want to say to all of you who are here with us today, uh, our discussion on how complex and transformative the journey of self integration can be, right? Is an invitation for all of us to embrace both our persona and our shadow. And when we do that, we begin to move towards a better, fuller, more holistic understanding of who we are because we allow us to live with a greater sense of authenticity and actually emotional balance. I think Peter ultimately the key to our growth as Jung would say right is in recognizing and integrating those parts of us that we might not want or allow to face and uh so it is really freeing ourselves from our own prisons. So I just say as we come to the end of our episode, let us all remember that the journey toward individuation and the sense of wholeness or fulfillment or planitude is not a destination, right? We we don't get

say as we come to the end of our episode, let us all remember that the journey toward individuation and the sense of wholeness or fulfillment or planitude is not a destination, right? We we don't get there. We continuously getting closer. It's that process. And when we Yes. So when we cultivate the sense of self-discovery, self-awareness, we automatically start embracing our shadow and most important everyone including me and you Peter, we must practice forgiveness. Forgiveness starting with ourselves and others. And uh at that point, that's when we can continue on our path toward true self-discovery and spiritual growth. But I want to say everyone, thank you so much for being here with us today. We hope this conversation inspired you to to reflect on those concepts of persona, of shadow, of uh uh integration of those two opposing forces within ourselves and how we can um allow and I say this to you and but to myself mostly but how we all can allow ourselves more uh understanding, acceptance love and forgiveness. But until next time, I just want to say stay curious, stay compassionate, keep striving for those deeper truths within. If this is the first time you are here with us today, please note that the psychology and spirituality weekly talks are based on the works by Joanna D'Angelus. And we hope we're able to perhaps uh expand your own concepts. And what I mean by that is to your own concept of spirituality, right? And psychology as well. I want to thank Peter and I want to thank our sponsors Mon Camino, the United States Spiritist Federation, International Spiritist Council and Amy Brazil, the Brazilian arm of the medical spiritist association. We'll be back next week with another episode. Thank you so much for being here and goodbye everyone.