Ep 112 - The Transformative Power of Love

Hello everyone. Welcome to the psychology and spirituality, a bridge to a better life discussion. Please note that we're here today to start a new episode, a weekly episode of that where we explore the intersection of spirituality and psychology and as a result capture timeless wisdom contained in both fields. I'm your host Marcia Trojano and with me super excited to be here with you Josara Cornode who is the program founder and co-host and we're here today to talk about this amazing topic the transformative power of love. Jada how you doing? Hello Marcier. I'm doing great and uh as always I'm um very happy to be here and to be with everyone that has been regular following us and our studies is about psychology and spirituality. So hello everyone. Hello. So we are dedicating this episode to this. It's a big title, right? The transformative power of love. And uh truly it's one way for us to say if you are open to explore one of the most profound forces in human experience. Come with us in our discussion today. It's often said a love is the key to healing and the pathway to joy. But uh just what does it really mean? For example, how does love shape our personal spiritual growth? How does love help us discover our true self? And most importantly, I guess, why do so many of us struggle to truly embracing love in our lives? Let us just take our moment to talk about those questions and more. Can we discuss that? And maybe I I'm feeling Josada that today when you talk about love, we really need to perhaps bring the idea of journey of selfawareness um perhaps healing emotional wounds. And uh the person that uh comes to my mind that can really open up the discussion may be Carl Gustav, our wonderful amazing Swiss psychiatrist that brought so much information in in his theories. What do you think? Oh, Marcia, without a doubt, this is a big topic, right? uh is not a trivial thing for us to talk about uh about love because uh in this sense and we will bring later in the description. Um I

u think? Oh, Marcia, without a doubt, this is a big topic, right? uh is not a trivial thing for us to talk about uh about love because uh in this sense and we will bring later in the description. Um I love the way that we have in Greek that they have seven different words for love to define love according to what they are talking about. you know the how profound the love is. Um and and uh as we know the agape meaning the love that we are talking about today this this transform transformative power that we we are still on our way to discover and um it's very interesting because we can um talk about several religions but especially about Christianity everyone that follows Christ's teachings. Uh we all know that the the center team of Jesus is is love was always love. Love one another, not the enemies. You you know if you have love and uh and even you know the the the followers, the continuators, the apostles that continue with the same spreading the same message. So this leads us to question why was it so important right in are we talking about a religious thing because a go Jesus was just teaching us to you know to have this kind of connection with the father mother or you know with the creator or it is because you know um when we are talking of love and I think that during this 2,000 years more. We have developing enough not only in this in the field of rel religiosity, spirituality to to understand more what uh was you know the true message that Jesus and others brought to us in the sense but in the same time we will see uh scientists scholars like Jung describing the power of love and then you will say, "What are we talking about? Are those guys becoming religious or spiritual?" Well, we young as we know, young as we know, is very spiritual, very spiritual person. But here, you know, he he he he talks about and and he he connects he actually bridged the the this term love with the discovery of the self as being the ultimate goal of a human being. So when I I go into this

you know, he he he he talks about and and he he connects he actually bridged the the this term love with the discovery of the self as being the ultimate goal of a human being. So when I I go into this direction of discovering the self of you know attuning with the self that I am this light that I am then we'll have balance because what leads us to to psychiatry or to theraps or psychotherapists what what you know the the imbalance of the soul, the imbalance of the mind. Mhm. Here meaning I'm no longer will have any kind of imbalance. Yeah. When I have this full this love, the agathy really felt and spread in myself. There will be no contradictions. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that this is how you know um he kind of describes this process you know of looking for um love in in terms like he says bridging the gap between the ego and the unconscious creating wholeness. So we are not whole yet. Uh and then how come we are not whole as we are right tell us tell us why why Jung you're telling us we're not there yet and it's it's interesting the word whole right so uh from a whole I and there's a there's a movie that always comes to my mind and when I'm thinking about this just which is the Matrix where Neil or the one, right? The one what what do you mean by that? But it's the one. I'm not going to I'm not going to talk about the movie, but it's the idea that when we are whole, we're one. One is that integer and integer as as the numerical value really talks about the integral human being which by the way there's this amazing book by Joanna D'Angelus and it it that mirrors two things the path that uh Jung brings to us when he talks about the individuation the journey toward individuation right on one hand but on the other hand it really talks about how we can uh mirror ourselves in the image of Jesus the model of that integral human being meaning that he really had no shadow right he was integrated all of it as one man yeah when I I I think about the wholeness and and in this case like we

of Jesus the model of that integral human being meaning that he really had no shadow right he was integrated all of it as one man yeah when I I I think about the wholeness and and in this case like we were when you is is exploring this concept of love like a transformative power forward that will help us in this process of self-discovery and individuation. I think a good way for us to visualize is to visualize a seed and I'm going to choose the seed of an oak tree. Right? When you look at the seed of an oak tree, you are not going to be seeing, you know, the trunk, the branches, the leaves, the so many leaves that we'll have one day, right? just so the way I visualize ourselves in this process of you know selfdiscovery and individual that is going to help to happen through love self love discovering the power of love in us it's exactly like that I mean we are seeds we have the potential but we we are not we are not yet a an oak tree, right? Developed oak oak oak tree. So this is the this is the journey right where um I think we can see ourselves as as having all the potential as having all the possibilities but have to to pass through different stages and we are going to struggle at the beginning. You know when we think about the seed she has to it has to be buried in the soil sometimes deep and then then there is only it seems there is only darkness around you and um I don't want that I want to get out I want to go to a different place I don't want it to to be enveloped in this you know wet soil and god bless if there is water right watering uh helping in this process because even though we are in the dark as you know tiny seeds there will always be someone watering us without us knowing uh without us realizing and and that can even be the experience itself in being in the dark and I'm not realizing that because of that because of the struggle So I'm helping in the process of the developing and just sprout and see what is outside and and then you know those first stages of just a tiny bridge

zing that because of that because of the struggle So I'm helping in the process of the developing and just sprout and see what is outside and and then you know those first stages of just a tiny bridge sometimes one live siege. We are so proud of ourselves, right? Oh my god, look what I did. I I I broke free. Yeah. Is the breaking free is is is going in the process of this individuation. But what do you know about life? About what we need about what we will become for the time being. I'm that fragile little plant and and you know and then we can see from nature how much we learn as well and how much we can compare to ourselves right and then the process continues in this kind of development and the things are going to intuitively guide me because uh you know I will uh deal with the resources gather try to gather more resources from where I can gather being the the the soil the water sun the shadow right and I I I think you know it's a very beautiful process and uh thinking and quite quite a good metaphor by the way right and getting at the the end of that right is becoming the powerful oak tree yeah it works, right, Marcia? Yes. Yes. I love it because it also speaks to struggles, the suffering, the the not just breaking free from your current state as a seed. You have to let go of who you are. In essence, the self-identification into moving toward what you can become. Uh when when that seed sprouts, it doesn't not really know, right? It does not really know what it will become, but it's the as you as you mentioned so well, this desire to grow and the desire to grow is to to get closer to the source of light, which can be very good way for us to to think of ourselves. How are we doing? And why are we so conflicted sometimes? Is it because we are not putting ourselves in a position to grow, to become what we can be? Are we putting ourselves immersed and staying in the shadow in the darkness? What is it that's going on that's preventing us to to be all that we can be? Right? It looks like we're

ome what we can be? Are we putting ourselves immersed and staying in the shadow in the darkness? What is it that's going on that's preventing us to to be all that we can be? Right? It looks like we're talking about an advertisement. We're not. But o overall it's really a a a process that speaks of uh um the need for healing and uh because through through that breaking free and losing your old identity. We're talking now about the seed. Uh we may have some wounds, right? Some emotional wounds. What can we do in your opinion uh Josara to really use love as this powerful mechanism to therapeutically speaking to help us heal ourselves to transform ourselves. And the words that come to my mind, the vision that comes to my mind are of course Jesus and we we mention the Christian thoughts, right? Christianity as a philosophy of uh of love more than anything else. Love your enemy, love yourself, be compassionate. But uh are we ready, Jasara? You you mentioned agape as a type of love that we're so far from. But are we ready to even try to be that that can love like Christ did? Yeah. uh was one of the angelas I think she she mentions very well in one of her books and in search of truth she says about she she talks when she's talking about love she talks about the importance of relationships so here I think when you ask u what would be the way and that is why we live in society we are obliged to have relationships and in In a way our soul um is is is is um you know is eager as well to uh go after love you know love from the parents uh love from the friends loving loving love from a partner. We we we want to be surrounded by people and we wanted to be appreciated and this appreciation meaning we want to them to love us. Uh and I think this is is the basic need that we all have that uh we may say what are the basic needs of human beings? Well to eat to drink to sleep. Yeah. Not really because you know you see we see that this is not enough because I may um this may make my body

t uh we may say what are the basic needs of human beings? Well to eat to drink to sleep. Yeah. Not really because you know you see we see that this is not enough because I may um this may make my body survive but it's not going to lift my spirit. Yeah. Like my mind I'm not going to be okay if I just uh live by myself and have all the resources and isolate myself. This is not the purpose of us here. And so one of the angelist talks that the first step is actually not for us like St. Francis of Ais says in this prayer not so much to to uh to to being loved but to love. So the idea here is that if we can offer some this kind of emotion to others in the different let's think about the the seven different kinds of you know categories of love like the Greeks mention it doesn't need to be the ultimate love but it can be the love of of a friend of someone that admires you but it starts with us giving and when we have this and I'm sure all of you that are listening, you know well what I'm talking about because you know even when we talk about love to a plant or to an animal or sometimes even for a thing that we have uh special thing that we have inherent from a loved ones that always bring to our minds that that emotion you know we have that you know comfort comfort uh food that some Many time is related to emotions. I remember the smell when my grandma used to bake this cake. It's not about the cake, it's about the emotion. So we go after the emotion very much like you know the little seed I need to to break out. I need to go towards love. But you know we complicate things because when the ego prevails. Yeah. And I want sometimes more to possess than actually love. Yeah. And because that's all we know, right? It's the lower level of love. We could say that. And then it becomes very complicated because then there is possession that is coming. There is so many repressions. There is the shadow side of ourselves that brings us memories or or or or you know frustrations that we had in

omplicated because then there is possession that is coming. There is so many repressions. There is the shadow side of ourselves that brings us memories or or or or you know frustrations that we had in previous relationships and now we we have we must have control and and we forget about what the relationship is is about. And and like I was saying, all of us we know what this feeling feels and we know how we feel good with it. So imagine so when Jesus was saying love search for you know the ultimate love to connect with the creator he was wishing us to be in a complete state of wellness of fulfillment of wholeness. Yes. Nothing to do with religions with uh worshiping the one God or no it's about us as creations reaching our full potential. Yeah. And in this process like Jung talks about individuation when and he mentions as well something relating to the anima anonymous the pos the masculine side in in in women and feminine side in men kind of very interesting Marcia because when I was reading that for us today you know thinking about what we were going to be talking about here and I read, you know, about this uh uh Jung talking about the animos and how we have to let them manifesting us, right? As being a a compliment, a a side that's going to complement us. Yeah. So those are complimementaryary forces instead of polarizing forces, right? They don't pull us apart. They actually bring us into that individuated being that we all as strive to. I love that. Yeah. The way that he mentions it so much to do with uh we and it spiritism and spirituality believe in terms of you know spirits have no no sex. no gender. Correct. We go through different experiences uh you know in different bodies to experience everything. And of course as women or men primarily we are going to have a a response more related to the gender we have but that not necessarily represents what what our spirit is. and and and and you see that there has to be this this completeness. I cannot be just a a male

response more related to the gender we have but that not necessarily represents what what our spirit is. and and and and you see that there has to be this this completeness. I cannot be just a a male type or a female type because there are some some traits that prevail in one and the other. And so if I don't have that, I'm not complete. Absolutely. in order to be complete as a spirit or as Young is saying here is um you have to let it manifest. And when he talks about it, he talks mainly about you know uh the anima in men because this is what gives uh the position for love to take over as well for your emotions and not just to be you know the macho man that many can expect but when you bring the emotions so the anima has to be there has to be present as well and and like I said I is making this comparison with uh you know what we learn from from spiritism in the sense uh that yeah we we have to learn everything. We have to learn all the the emotions that are related to the different experiences that we are going to have on life in a body. Mhm. There's a reason, right? And there's a reason for us to even um somehow right this is a parenthesis here just but somehow um lately you know we're talking about the literature that we find in the past I'll say 50 years uh there is this villainization of the ego right and and when we talk about individuation we talked about the anima and the animous We also talk about the integration of all the parts of who you are including for example your shell your shell your shadow right and but it it's really to achieve that what Joanna D calls the ex between um um self and ego ego and self and creating that bridge between The ego that responds that creates the structure for us to be able to live in this material existence counters the self which is our spiritual nature. But we need both. Otherwise, why be here? Right. Just if you think about uh um all of the the discussions from a spiritual perspective uh in in those uh um discussions

f which is our spiritual nature. But we need both. Otherwise, why be here? Right. Just if you think about uh um all of the the discussions from a spiritual perspective uh in in those uh um discussions or or attributes of a an immortal soul. Uh you could very quickly ask why am I here? Why do I live? Well, there is a reason and the reason is exactly what our dear Jung was telling us. It is the process of individuation and it's the the process of individuation that is authentically yours. It is made of all the successes and failures. every time you fell down that you that you stumped on something you stumbled and you fell but you got up again. Those are the process that become a part of your experience even if it may be not consciously aware those are part of who we are. So having um an awareness of the process of individuation, having awareness of the the the the nature that we are all part of this construct that is very dual, right? There's the duality, the anima, the animus, but also uh everything that we do, ego, self, body, spirit, all of those two parts of the same or two sides of the same. When we talk about individuation, we're really talking about how they converge to one to that notion of wholeness, of integration, of individuation. And uh I think the thing that comes to my mind when we're talking Josara to me is is really all about uh back to the idea of love. How can Josara in your in your thought how can love illuminate or enlighten the path to understanding our deepest purpose? Why are we here on earth? What is this connection of this material world? How can love perhaps as a path or mechanism for selfawwareness, self-discovery, self-compassion, self-love through the journey of self-discovery leads me to grow and and be more connected. What are your thoughts? Yeah, the I you know Oh yeah, I thought I was in mute about um about that you know. Mhm. Uh we were talking about the importance of having or being able of reaching this kind of uh illuminating love. Yes. as

he I you know Oh yeah, I thought I was in mute about um about that you know. Mhm. Uh we were talking about the importance of having or being able of reaching this kind of uh illuminating love. Yes. as being the complete state of well-being. Mhm. So when we go through this journey uh the more I'm capable of you know thinking about others relating that's why I think one of the angels emphasizes so much relationships in general the more able to understand others to forgive others to be compassionate but it goes in stage like the the the Greeks like the Greek said and Actually I I found it here. I was looking for that. So the relation of the seven time types of of per of love per order of uh you know greatness importance being agape the conditional selfless love that represents uh the highest and purest form of love which is you know our goal but of course we are very far from that. I think there was only one being on this earth that actually felt this agapee Jesus perhaps others I'm not so sure but uh as far as we know if you can imagine then he talks about philosopia that is selflove that as well because you know um how can we reach love to everyone else if I don't love myself absolutely absolutely I have to uh to have this healthy uh self-love right that it it comes a component of selfrespected self-acceptance emotional stability. So this is the process I'm starting from the best to the worst. Maybe I should have started and and one thing that is important just to coincidentally is when when um we start to study that self-love, right? Uh many people me included I would say perhaps at some point I would react to it. What do you mean self-love? Are you talking about this selfcentered uh type of uh uh I love and I I I I need I'm selfish. Everything's about me and my ego and it's not as you said really well. It's it's loving all the components of myself so that I'm free to love the other. Right. Exactly. So the next one they talk about is pragma. Bragma meaning enduring committed love.

u said really well. It's it's loving all the components of myself so that I'm free to love the other. Right. Exactly. So the next one they talk about is pragma. Bragma meaning enduring committed love. If we think about uh if we are capable of have a long-term mature love we are in a good way compromising have patience mutual respect. Then it talks about felia the felia meaning a different shape and loyal love. So those are the highest forms of you know uh of love the agape and felosia the foundational love being pragma and felia and then the emotional the emotional right that is more related already it goes to closeness that is a storage that to familial love natural instinctive love uh this deep connection. Then comes areros uh passionate romantic love. So is more related to what we know already sexual attraction but it's you know the beginning of uh of everything. And then there is ludos that is playful for flirtatious love. And they talk about another one that is mania obsessive possessive love. So if we look uh at this order the lower forms of law or love being ludos that we are more you know just unfortunately you know and mania that is obsessive. So this this is the sta the stages that we we start and and and uh we we can see that in in our development right we will perhaps have different relationships what we will feel in one kind of possessive in kind more like a flirtatious or already related to more romantic love, familial love where there is a a deeper emotion in involved. Yeah. But uh and probably we we we know more more of those and and perhaps failure that is friendship and loy loyal love. Yes. to have the the first three ones the agape felosia and pragma even the enduring committed love is not something that we see so much today we should right but it's I I think this is this is the process as long as we know and we understand and like we've said before this has nothing to do with uh just a list of attributes or or a list that was given to us by religious

hink this is this is the process as long as we know and we understand and like we've said before this has nothing to do with uh just a list of attributes or or a list that was given to us by religious convictions or spiritual ones or a even a list that uh psych psychiatrist um psychologist have given to us. It's the result of observation and we feel see it today. If you are in a well balanced relationship with yourself already, we will see a a very interesting person. Yeah. It doesn't we don't need to involve others. Yeah. uh uh but uh then in order to grow of course we are going to be involving others and uh and this is how we can see uh ourselves going in this journey and I think it is a journey right and um and I think we have to believe in our potential very much like seed when I look at myself I may I may not feel that I have all this potential. Yeah. So I want to pivot. Okay. Just I want to pivot. Right. We talked about love from different various degrees and and and those that we know more that possessive love. My husband, my child, my father. This is this sense of it's mine. Nobody can have it. to attributes of perhaps jealousy or even envy, right? Because my sibling, my sister, my brother, they they got better, they are uh look better, they're wealthier, whatever the attribute may be. And there's this deepseated notion that is really not love. It's the opposite, right? it it's this uh repressed emotions that cannot express the pure transformative power of love. It is instead something that uh it's really um makes us ill when we live and and and embroil ourselves into those feelings. Is there anything that perhaps uh you you can think about of of that sick love? And and remember I know we're talking about Jung and Jung did not say hate hatred is the opposite of love, right? He said power is the opposite of love but uh so I I'm I'm trying to to explain so you don't say Marcus are saying something wrong. No, we we do it. But what about those types of sicklo if

love, right? He said power is the opposite of love but uh so I I'm I'm trying to to explain so you don't say Marcus are saying something wrong. No, we we do it. But what about those types of sicklo if you will which comes out this jealousy and and envy. Can you get an example perhaps that you can talk to us about? Yeah. I I I well I think recently we we mentioned the the parable of the prodigal son, right? Where or the two two sons um as some of the evangelists present. We um we talked about this jealousy in relation to the uh elder son and uh how uh when the the youngest one returned his reaction of uh reprimand his father for being so warm of being you know like you know this is the son that left you and you for your inherent sentence and the world and just you know and and returned barely dressed because he came barely dressed. He didn't have any sandals uh his uh he was dressing in rags uh you know in the worst stage. But then then we we see this um pathological pathological emotion that is envy and that does not represent I think and sometimes you know I think the the eldest son would would like to say I'm someone of worth. Yeah. You should have valued me more. Ah and uh it's very much like the father said everything I have is yours what what else could I give you you know and um I I was thinking that uh when we even were mentioning that the the youngest son went to a distant land uh he went physically perhaps he was always connected uh I dare to say that he was connected to to the father to the house because he returned. Yes. Would not no connection. You know, all of this had been long gone throughout the road. Even if he was in this desperate need, he wouldn't feel like he had a home to come back. But the one that he stayed, he was like a he made himself a prisoner. He stayed out of obligation. So not out of love, right? Just it's a very interesting example. Thank you. Yeah, but sorry. Not not exactly I mean according to my perspective I would say that you know he

e stayed out of obligation. So not out of love, right? Just it's a very interesting example. Thank you. Yeah, but sorry. Not not exactly I mean according to my perspective I would say that you know he was physically there but emotionally he was not there and even in in terms of you know the interpretations like he was uh wishing to take the place of the father and that's why he remained. So it was not out of it was out of a disturbed emotion of a selfishness uh of you know um more interest than anything else and and and what the the world would be saying if he was going to abandon his father as well. So not out of true true the trness of his soul for sure. And um you know and um actually I think among the lowest because you know the gree there was gree yes and but but but it's we we're not going to be judging here because it's the process of growing and and I think that uh you know in the process of growing all of us will have uh we will be living and experience those different kinds of love. But it's important for us to know that the more distant we are from this at least the pragma level, you know, of uh emotion that is more, you know, related to um to at least a committed love, an enduring love, we are not going to feel okay. and and and terms of you don't you know the analysis that both Jung and Joanna Leangelie says they said avoid seeking external sources of fulfillment because it's going to lead to spiritual and psychological emptiness. So um we go in with the illusions of the world and say this is going to make me happy. Oh, this is that I love. This is a person that I love and I want. And like you said, for starters, you know, the more we develop, I think the more we will be revising our vocabulary and grammar to the point eliminating possessives completely. You know, I love that. I love that idea by the way. But I was thinking um just that uh it was in James Hollis Swamplings of the Soul, right? where he he talks about how resentment and and jealousy really arise

I love that. I love that idea by the way. But I was thinking um just that uh it was in James Hollis Swamplings of the Soul, right? where he he talks about how resentment and and jealousy really arise from suppressed emotions or unmet needs. So if we go back to the older son, even though the younger son, the prodigal son is the one that breaks away and and and and goes out to that distant land that you referenced, the the older child, the older son stays, but he has perhaps suppressed so much his own desire to break free. and uh he was not able to meet whatever the needs he had that he actually didn't leave physically but he was actually distant all along and uh Jung talks about it right that uh love will bridge those gaps found in your ego your conscious self and your unconscious So that even though um you you're not aware of uh those things that have repressed your your resentment, your jealousy, your envy, whatever it is, love itself will be the healing force for that. and the authentic love through it we all you me all of us they will release those wounds or those uh things that are not met right so if we if we are indeed need just s please tell me you love me I need the validation right and even if I need to uh go into this my boyfriend and my this is fiction everyone my boyfriend loves me and look at the beautiful roses that uh he gave it to me in Valentine's Days whatever whatever whatever even though I may need those external very even ephemeral very materialistic validations of this love it heals me little by le little right my my my wounds are there but I start to fulfill feel feel uh uh better until I can get to a point all of us I believe will get to a point that we will be able to truly feel the love expressed as agape right that's a beautiful way of expressing all of that Marcia and um I I think you know that that that is the way there is the process and Um and uh thinking about how how self selfish and possessive we can be in of this like you were saying to the point of

rcia and um I I think you know that that that is the way there is the process and Um and uh thinking about how how self selfish and possessive we can be in of this like you were saying to the point of sometimes having resentment. He felt like you know the the elder son he actually resented the the sentiment that the father was demonstrating to the prodigal son. I would like for us to end with this statement from Joanna D'Angel. Yeah, it has everything to do with what we were talking in those last few minutes when she says says that loves embraces the entire world. Yeah. And no matter how much it is divided, it never diminishes in intensity. Instead it multiplies and expand infinitely. So sometimes you know we think that oh if this common friend that we have Mia loves you and loves me is like you know she has just 10 oranges and she has to give five to you and five to me I would like I would like to have the 10 myself. Yeah. It's not what happen with love. Yeah. She gives you the 10, she will have 10 more to give to me as well and 10 more to give to everyone because it only multiplies. Is the multiplication of bread like we we see in the the the the passages of the lives of Jesus. It multiplies. It aims for to satiate everyone. But of course, it's not the love that we already feel. We are in this process. You and me and everyone else that is listening to us, we are in this process. And now you know that and we know that there is this emotion that resides in me that is just a matter of me getting to know more myself, of discovering myself. Yeah. and not fear this journey of individuation that it doesn't mean that you go alone and that you have to uh stay away from the world. On the contrary, we we go in this journey and we learn in this journey from others and we we grow and we get into this process of reaching this agape of reaching this holiness of feeling emotional balance. So I would love to leave you now with this of Shana. Don't fear. Give love because there will be

we get into this process of reaching this agape of reaching this holiness of feeling emotional balance. So I would love to leave you now with this of Shana. Don't fear. Give love because there will be much more from the source of love that resides in each one of us. I love it. Yes. So whether you're looking for personal growth, emotional healing, or simply you're ready for deeper connection with the world around you. I really hope this conversation has helped guide you. It has certainly has helped me guide myself in this path toward embracing the true power of love. I want to thank you all of you. Thank you Josada. Thank you all who has joined us today. And if this is the first time you've listened to our program, please note that the psychology and spirituality weekly talks are based on the works by Joanna D'Angelus. We hope you're able to perhaps expand your own spirituality concepts by juxtaposing them in this psychological lens. We also want to thank our sponsors, Monsano Camino, the United States Spiritist Federation, the International Spiritist Council and Ami Brazil, the Brazilian arm of the Medical Spiritist Association. We'll be back next week with another episode. So stay tuned and until then, take care and keep on loving. Bye everyone. Bye everyone.